Yes - It's Possible!

Dragline · Post by **Dragline** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:41 am

Definition of wisdom, eh? Someone on this board recommended Schumacher's "Small Is Beautiful" (pub. 1973), which I am reading now (and am grateful for the suggestion). He defines wisdom like this:
"In short we can say today that man is far too clever to be able to survive without wisdom. No-one is really working for peace unless he is working primarily for the restoration of wisdom. The assertion that 'foul is useful and fair is not' [from Keynes alluding to economic theory] is the antithesis of wisdom. The hope that the pursuit of goodness and virtue can be postponed until we have attained universal prosperity and that by the single minded pursuit of wealth, without bothering our heeds about spiritual and moral questions. we could establish peace on earth is an unrealistic, unscientific. and irrational hope, The exclusion of wisdom from economics, science. and technology was something which we could perhaps get away with for a little while. as long as we were relatively unsuccessful; but now that we have become very successful. the problem of spiritual and moral truth moves into the central position.
From an economic point of view, the central concept of wisdom is permanence. We must study the economics of permanence. Nothing makes economic sense unless its continuance for a long time can be projected without running into absurdities. There can be 'growth' towards a limited objective. but there cannot be unlimited. generalised growth. It is more than likely, as Gandhi said, that 'Earth provides enough to satisfy- every man's need, but not for every man's greed'. Permanence is incompatible with a predatory attitude which rejoices in the fact that 'what were luxuries for our fathers have become necessities for us.
The cultivation and expansion of needs is the antithesis of wisdom. It is also the antithesis of freedom and peace, Every increase of needs tends to increase one's dependence on outside forces over which one cannot have control, and therefore increases existential fear. Only by a reduction of needs can one promote a genuine reduction in those tensions which are the ultimate causes of strife and war."
Pretty good description I think, especially in ERE terms.
I enjoy your posts, M, and hope you continue to post more.
BTW, what foods were you alluding to? I would include things like sardines, raw kefir, goat-milk cheese, organ meats and kimchi, but that's probably just me.

aussierogue · Post by **aussierogue** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:17 am

@M
you actually dont earn that much more than a bus driver and nor are you rich so dont get ahead of yourself - lol...whats wrong with being a bus driver or being poor? I have friends who are both.
I was referring to your story and the way you articulated it. from reading it you seem wise and intelligent...but I could be wrong (i doubt it though)...
the key for you moving forward is not to put all your future success and failures down to your past - if you do the past wins. Everyday you can start from scratch and your past can no longer matter...as much anyway. Your past helepd shape you but your past isnt you.
I have seen many people achieve success and they that down to one pivotal moment in their lives....the problem is that could infact be wrong - so although that motivation helped with some sort of achievement you cannot rely on that motivation for the next 60 years...
What worked then may not work now. The friends you now make, the children you may someday have wont really care about your past.......and thats a good thing.
I wish you happiness
aussie

noskich · Post by **noskich** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:26 pm

While your path is inspirational, I am not quite sure you would be able to pull out the same stint in a developing country. On this forum often living in a developed country is taken for granted. What if you had to give all your disposable income for food and medicine without access to education? That would be way more limiting than fighting against comsumerist urges.

I used to work for a government agency as a graduate in my home country. With the salary back then I could pay rent for a small studio and utilities. My parents sent me additional money for food.

Now in a developed country I earn per day as much as I used to earn per month.

And my home country is developing, not undeveloped, so I can hardly imagine what they go through in most parts of Africa.

Chad · Post by **Chad** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:15 pm

Comparisons between developed and undeveloped countries are like comparing apples to oranges. We can always find someone worse off. I don't think M was suggesting he is the "winner" of the "who had it worst" contest. M is just saying that even with a lot of negatives in your life ERE is possible.

pooablo · Post by **pooablo** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:07 pm

@M Thank you for sharing your story. The odds were stacked against you. I wish everyone else had your tenacity, perseverance, and consciousness. I think there would be less unhappiness and suffering in the world.

If only people would break their bad faith (mauvaise foi) and empower themselves....

secretwealth · Post by **secretwealth** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:04 pm

Odd non sequitur, nonskich. What M did also would be impossible in the middle ages or on Mars. I don't think ERE as a lifestyle is something that is obtainable in third-world or fully undeveloped economies, nor is it really designed to be. But ERE isn't supposed to be a universal premise like the law of gravity, so I don't think there's much point even discussing third-world countries or economies where ERE is impossible.

Spartan_Warrior · Post by **Spartan_Warrior** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:49 pm

In fairness to noskich, M's original premise was "I am convinced that ERE should be easy for most people." In fact, ERE is next to impossible for a majority of people on Earth, and I doubt anyone would argue that(?). It's a semantic issue. Noskich merely pointed out the implicit assumption that was indeed taken for granted: "most people... in developed nations".
Not that that diminishes the accomplishments in any way (nor do I think that was the intent of the comment). This is a great, inspiring thread.

M · Post by M » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:01 am

@Dragline - Nice. I love discussions about wisdom and what it means to different people.
In terms of food - there is a lot of misinformation in this regard, even in the scientific literature, so I have gone back to the old trial and error method of eating food and recording the effects on me. So for me, personally:
Eating fatty foods, such as lots of dairy, puts me in a low energy state but improves my ability to concentrate and generally keeps my energy state "stable", if you will. I can focus more, but I'm also more prone to sleepiness. Since I'm an engineer I tend to eat a lot of fatty foods at work so I can focus better.
Eating red meat makes me more prone to anger and irritable for some reason. This is especially true if I combine red meat with pop, for example a hamburger and a coke. Eating chicken does the same thing but the effect is much, much smaller and less noticeable.
Eating light, low-fat vegetarian meals puts me in a high mental and physical state, but it makes me feel energetically unstable. Especially if they are based on eating a lot of fruit. This also makes me less able to block out certain things so I can focus, and so I become much more aware of my surroundings and my general 'awareness' increases substantially. It makes me feel superhuman. I once tried a raw vegan diet for a while and it felt like I was walking around in a new reality. I felt like I had so much energy that it was uncomfortable. I wasn't used to it, and didn't know what to do, so I decided to eat some fatty cheese to bring me back down to earth.
There are other things that I have noticed but these are the main ones. I don't know if food just effects me more than most people, or if I just pay attention to it more.
@aussie - "What's wrong with being a bus driver or being poor?" That was actually the point I was trying to make. There's nothing wrong with being a bus driver or being poor. I have met some very wise bus drivers in my day, and I have met some very dumb CEO's who have more money than I could ever dream of. Accumulating a lot of things doesn't require one to be overly intelligent. It just requires you to want to accumulate a lot of things.
Your post tells me that you are very wise. Letting go of the past was a difficult lesson for me to learn, but I did learn it. A long time ago. But there are still a lot of people who still struggle with mental blocks, with the idea that they can't achieve ERE because they have this or that affliction which only impacts them and not anyone else. So the purpose of this post is to simply show them that hey - you can overcome this. It's not difficult. This is the mindset that people should have. When you believe that something is easy, natural, and not challenging, it has an odd way of suddenly becoming easy, natural, and not challenging. So that is what I am trying to get across here.
@noskich - You raise a very valid point. Many people, myself included, tend to forget that they are very lucky to have been born in a developed world. I feel very sympathetic toward people who are unfortunate and who were not born into a developed country. If I were in charge I would simply invite every freedom loving individual to come live in the USA, but then I would probably get shot by a union worker, so I could see how that wouldn't last very long.
I think if I were not born in a developed world my wealth generation strategy would be completely different. I probably wouldn't bother with the stock market, and would instead focus on gathering physical possessions and resources, physical systems of production, and starting my own business. I would focus on systems of helping to automate food production first, and go from there. I don't think I would even bother with a typical job, at least not for long, nor would I bother with a traditional education or the financial markets.

Dragline · Post by **Dragline** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:22 am

I haven't heard anyone say "pop" since I left Iowa. Except for a girl I once dated from Indiana.
Interesting food diary. I agree with you that it is a good idea to use a "trial and error" method to see what works best for you and how different foods make you feel. I think this is why there is such public discord about types of diets -- some people do really thrive better on certain foods than others. And they can have bad results when they listen to someone with a one-size-fits-all mantra.
My theory is that we will find genetic markers that can tell us whether someone would do better on particular foods (or can digest them). The "lactose" gene is well-known already, but I expect that there are others for gluten, animal protein and other things.
Personally, i believe that I possess the rare but powerful "bacon" gene.

Post by **jacob** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:03 am

@Dragline - Someone made this just for you

http://www.popvssoda.com/

pooablo · Post by **pooablo** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:58 pm

I love that pop and soda map. We only use pop up here in Canada.

M · Post by M » Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:01 am

@jacob - That just made my day. And - I do in fact live in a 'pop' part of the country, so it seems to be accurate for where I live.

M · Post by M » Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:08 am

@dragline - I completely agree with you. There's simply too much disagreement between too many intelligent people to believe otherwise.

prosaic · Post by **prosaic** » Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:53 pm

@ dragline: "My theory is that we will find genetic markers that can tell us whether someone would do better on particular foods (or can digest them). The "lactose" gene is well-known already, but I expect that there are others for gluten, animal protein and other things."
Read what Dr. Amy Yasko is doing for autism, Alzheimer's, etc. and her "genetic bypass" approach via genetic testing for SNPs related to specific biochemical issues. I shifted to a low protein, low sulfur diet because I learned I have certain CBS mutations and it has made a phenomenal difference in my health.

Dragline · Post by **Dragline** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:39 am

Thanks, I will certainly check that out.
You know, this idea is at least 500 years old in this epoch and goes back to a guy named Luigi Cornaro, who lived to be over 100 in 16th century Venice after nearly dying of diseases at around age 35. His basic advice was don't eat too much and don't eat for taste -- instead, eat for the way foods make you feel, and particularly in the way your body digests them (or not). You can Google reprints of his work. A more modern take on this idea may be found in Paul Chek's "Eat, Move and Be Healthy".
It's always nice to see science catching up with empirical wisdom. When you have both, you really have something solid.

prosaic · Post by **prosaic** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:55 am

I have often wondered if we don't have evolutionary differences that affect modern disease. For instance, do some people need more lithium from their diet (or as a supplement or pharmaceutical, in some cases) because their ancestors lived in lithium-rich water areas and adapted to that?
I will look up Cornaro -- thanks!