I think, by far, the most common objection I hear about ERE is that it's simply impossible. That it can't be done, regardless of how hard one tries. An outright denial by people who are too ignorant to know the truth of the matter, or to even care.
Now I have a new argument for these people. Not only is ERE possible - but it's easy. It's not difficult at all. The concept isn't difficult to understand. The implementation isn't difficult to accomplish. The most difficult part is simply changing one's mind about the subject. Everything else is relatively easy.
To prove this point, let me tell you about some of the things going against me that the average person may not have to experience:
1.) My parents got a divorce when I was a young boy.
2.) I failed a grade in school.
3.) I was abused and neglected as a child.
4.) I spent my teenage years in foster care going from home to home, trailer park to trailer park, through drug and gang infested neighborhoods.
5.) I have had zero financial support from my foster parents, or anyone else for that matter. I bought my own first car, paid for my own gas, paid my own insurance, paid my way through college, paid for my own cell phone, etc. The day I graduated from High School I was paying $300/month in rent and was buying my own food.
6.) The first ~$5,000 I made I lost by lending it to the wrong person in high school. Expensive lesson!
7.) The first ~$10,000 that I invested in the stock market I lost because I invested it in the wrong company at the wrong time. Even worse - the $10,000 was borrowed money off of a credit card that I had to pay back at a high interest rate. Dope!!
8.) Due to failing a grade, I didn't graduate high school until I was 19. Ahhh!!
9.) I got a girl pregnant shortly after graduating high school - Ooops!
10.) Married the same girl, who has never worked a day in her life - ERE mistake number 10!
11.) Had another child - Double Ooops! ERE mistake number 11!
Looking at this rap sheet - I should be dead by now. Abused. Neglected. Abandoned. Academic failure. Dirt floor poor. Trailer Trash. Now with a non-working spouse and children to boot. This, my ERE-friends, is how people go crazy.
That was 7 years ago.
Today - I have a professional job as an engineer and am a very spiritually-oriented. I am considered to be smart, educated, kind, and generous. Since graduating high school 7 years ago I have:
1.) Married the girl that I got pregnant and taken care of her and the children I helped create.
2.) Bought two cars - both with cash.
3.) Bought a house - with cash.
4.) Worked full time while going to college - Didn't take out a single student loan to go to college. Paid for college with cash.
5.) Graduated college. Twice.
6.) Accumulated over $25,000 in my 401k account.
7.) Accumulated over $150,000 in my taxable investment account, all invested in high quality dividend paying companies.
8.) Am starting my own business.
9.) Have never been on any kind of government or church assistance program.
10.) Have never received a dime from my biological parents, foster parents, or my wife's parents. In fact - I have even given money away to help other family members, both in my family and her family.
Folks - If I can achieve ERE by the time I'm 30, I'm convinced that anyone can. The cards were all stacked against me. I grew up beyond poverty. My spouse doesn't work. I have two children. I lost over 10 grand in the stock market, and effectively gave over 10 grand away through poor lending and charitable donations. Despite my profession, I don't make an excessive amount of money.
Based on my experience I am convinced that ERE should be easy for most people.
Changing people's minds is the hard part.
Yes - It's Possible!
What an inspiring post. To be honest, I often find myself blaming my parents for this and that when it's quite ridiculous how much support they gave me. I'll try to remember your post whenever I get those feelings. I can too easily give up or start whining when some little part of my plan doesn't go as planned, so it's great to see real examples of people overcoming adversity.
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secretwealth
- Posts: 1948
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That's one hell of a story. But I disagree--I don't think you're the least likely to achieve FI at a young age. I think the adversities you experienced at a young age made you strong, streetwise, and intelligent, and that's why you accumulated so much wealth in such a short time. It's the children of the wealthy, the privileged, and the comfy who have difficulties achieving true FI. I like what Stanley says about the children of millionaires and economic outpatient care.
In any case, congratulations--it's an incredible accomplishment, and you should be damn proud. It just goes to show that so many people don't achieve FI out of weakness more than anything else.
In any case, congratulations--it's an incredible accomplishment, and you should be damn proud. It just goes to show that so many people don't achieve FI out of weakness more than anything else.
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lilacorchid
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BeyondtheWrap
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@M: In spite of your progress, the people you're arguing with would still be likely to say that you're going to fail. If you want to really win the argument, you might need to wait until you actually reach FI. And even then, they might say that it's still not possible because your investments are going to fail or that you're going to run out of money.
Honestly I don't think you'll ever convince them. Even if you do eventually convince them it's possible by being FI for decades on end, they'll still most likely raise a different objection, like the deficiency of the lifestyle you need to maintain to make it possible.
Also, no matter what, the people you're arguing with are going to be bad at math.
Honestly I don't think you'll ever convince them. Even if you do eventually convince them it's possible by being FI for decades on end, they'll still most likely raise a different objection, like the deficiency of the lifestyle you need to maintain to make it possible.
Also, no matter what, the people you're arguing with are going to be bad at math.
@secretwealth
Yes - You are completely correct. In retrospect I understand that these experiences were actually good for me, in the grand scheme of things. They were painful - but they forced me to realize a lot of things and to grow in a way that would not have been possible otherwise.
I personally don't consider any of what I have done to be much of an accomplishment. Compared with what I have been through - ERE seems easy. But I think for a lot of people, seeing someone else who has been through hell, it can give them a sense of gratitude for their own life. I also wanted to post this to show that, even in the worst of circumstances growing up, even making so many mistakes, ERE is still an easy possibility.
I'm hoping that someone else who has been to prison for several years and who has gotten out and is now contemplating ERE, or on their way toward ERE, can post a similar story. Maybe we can gather these stories together and show how ERE is always possible regardless of the circumstances. For most people, seeing someone else who has already done something gives them the psychological boost that is required in order for them to accomplish it for themselves.
On a completely unrelated note - I think this is the only forum on the Internet where I can post a story such as mine and have someone point out that - yes - the experiences that I have had actually helped me to accomplish these things by helping me to grow into the person I am today. You must be a fairly conscious person in order to realize this fact.
Thanks for posting!
Yes - You are completely correct. In retrospect I understand that these experiences were actually good for me, in the grand scheme of things. They were painful - but they forced me to realize a lot of things and to grow in a way that would not have been possible otherwise.
I personally don't consider any of what I have done to be much of an accomplishment. Compared with what I have been through - ERE seems easy. But I think for a lot of people, seeing someone else who has been through hell, it can give them a sense of gratitude for their own life. I also wanted to post this to show that, even in the worst of circumstances growing up, even making so many mistakes, ERE is still an easy possibility.
I'm hoping that someone else who has been to prison for several years and who has gotten out and is now contemplating ERE, or on their way toward ERE, can post a similar story. Maybe we can gather these stories together and show how ERE is always possible regardless of the circumstances. For most people, seeing someone else who has already done something gives them the psychological boost that is required in order for them to accomplish it for themselves.
On a completely unrelated note - I think this is the only forum on the Internet where I can post a story such as mine and have someone point out that - yes - the experiences that I have had actually helped me to accomplish these things by helping me to grow into the person I am today. You must be a fairly conscious person in order to realize this fact.
Thanks for posting!@arelbspy
I don't have time to write all the details - but it basically went like this:
1.) Started working when I was 16. Worked off and on at various low end jobs throughout high school. Bought various used vehicles - spent a lot of money on maintenance until I realized how much cheaper it was to maintain my own vehicles. Lent out a lot of money to a guy who never paid me back. When I graduated high school I had enough money saved up to buy a 5 year old car, a nice computer, an engagement ring for my girlfriend, and still had some left over to start paying for college. I think I had around 8k when I graduated from high school.
2.) Started working third shift at a factory while going to college full time during the day. Staying awake through calculus class was difficult. I was very frugal during this time frame and saved virtually everything that I didn't spend on college or rent or food. No form of entertainment, useless crap, etc. Very little time for social life - if I had to do it over again I would spend more effort on my social life and meeting new people at college.
3.) 2 years after high school I bought a cheap house with the money that I had saved working third shift at factory. House was foreclosed on. It had a lot of issues that I spent several months fixing with the help of some friends. It helps to know people. In total paid around 30k for house. Plus 5k or so fixing it up.
4.) Around this time I started my first professional job making ~40k /year. I now make around ~60k /year due to getting raises over the past five years. Switched to going to college in the evenings and sleeping at night.
5.) After I bought the house I didn't know what to do with the money I was making so I started investing. I invested what little money I had into a company that was going under, and then made the mistake of maxing out a credit card to invest in the company also. I lost roughly 10k plus some interest paying for this mistake. I think this was the worst financial mistake I've ever made.
6.) Living a frugal lifestyle combined with an average income of around 50k and saving ~70% of my income for the last few years, combined with ~50k of investment gains, has resulted in my current position. I should point out that the cost basis of my investments is only around 100k - I invested massively in REIT's at the lowest point of the 2008/2009 crash and made out like a bandit. I also made a lot of money selling off my long term government bond funds more recently. I've made more money off of just capital gains from selling my bond funds this year than I've spent all year. Right now I'm focusing on furthering my education on investing.
I don't have time to write all the details - but it basically went like this:
1.) Started working when I was 16. Worked off and on at various low end jobs throughout high school. Bought various used vehicles - spent a lot of money on maintenance until I realized how much cheaper it was to maintain my own vehicles. Lent out a lot of money to a guy who never paid me back. When I graduated high school I had enough money saved up to buy a 5 year old car, a nice computer, an engagement ring for my girlfriend, and still had some left over to start paying for college. I think I had around 8k when I graduated from high school.
2.) Started working third shift at a factory while going to college full time during the day. Staying awake through calculus class was difficult. I was very frugal during this time frame and saved virtually everything that I didn't spend on college or rent or food. No form of entertainment, useless crap, etc. Very little time for social life - if I had to do it over again I would spend more effort on my social life and meeting new people at college.
3.) 2 years after high school I bought a cheap house with the money that I had saved working third shift at factory. House was foreclosed on. It had a lot of issues that I spent several months fixing with the help of some friends. It helps to know people.
In total paid around 30k for house. Plus 5k or so fixing it up.4.) Around this time I started my first professional job making ~40k /year. I now make around ~60k /year due to getting raises over the past five years. Switched to going to college in the evenings and sleeping at night.
5.) After I bought the house I didn't know what to do with the money I was making so I started investing. I invested what little money I had into a company that was going under, and then made the mistake of maxing out a credit card to invest in the company also. I lost roughly 10k plus some interest paying for this mistake. I think this was the worst financial mistake I've ever made.
6.) Living a frugal lifestyle combined with an average income of around 50k and saving ~70% of my income for the last few years, combined with ~50k of investment gains, has resulted in my current position. I should point out that the cost basis of my investments is only around 100k - I invested massively in REIT's at the lowest point of the 2008/2009 crash and made out like a bandit. I also made a lot of money selling off my long term government bond funds more recently. I've made more money off of just capital gains from selling my bond funds this year than I've spent all year. Right now I'm focusing on furthering my education on investing.
Thanks for sharing M, your story is impressive and inspirational.
Don't shortchange yourself on this subject of the adversity making you what you are. To say the main reason for your current success is the poor circumstances you grew up in really doesn't make much sense.
M is a winner. You don't start out with that bad of a life and then turn it around so well unless you were born with or worked very hard to developed something special in yourself. If it was the adversity that made people strong, streetwise, and intelligent, we wouldn't have ghettos filled up with lifelong and generational poor.
Don't shortchange yourself on this subject of the adversity making you what you are. To say the main reason for your current success is the poor circumstances you grew up in really doesn't make much sense.
M is a winner. You don't start out with that bad of a life and then turn it around so well unless you were born with or worked very hard to developed something special in yourself. If it was the adversity that made people strong, streetwise, and intelligent, we wouldn't have ghettos filled up with lifelong and generational poor.
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secretwealth
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jennypenny
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LiquidSapphire
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M: You fail to take into account that you are probably highly conscientious, and so find it comes naturally to you to work hard towards future goals. Your description of yourself as "spiritual" implies you are not very neurotic either, so you're not easily affected by bad experiences. You are also probably of above average intelligence, enabling you to make more effective plans.
I'm highly neurotic and not very conscientious. I get easily overwhelmed by negative emotions and struggle to make myself work very hard. I'm considering dropping out of university because of it.
To be honest I think that your case shows that in modern America conscientiousness can overcome upbringing as a deciding factor in success, more than anything.
I think that because your own mental state is all that you've ever experienced, you have made the implicit assumption that everyone else has a similar internal experience to you; and as a result you haven't considered what psychological advantages you may have.
I'm highly neurotic and not very conscientious. I get easily overwhelmed by negative emotions and struggle to make myself work very hard. I'm considering dropping out of university because of it.
To be honest I think that your case shows that in modern America conscientiousness can overcome upbringing as a deciding factor in success, more than anything.
I think that because your own mental state is all that you've ever experienced, you have made the implicit assumption that everyone else has a similar internal experience to you; and as a result you haven't considered what psychological advantages you may have.
Let's do me?
1. Grew up with loving parents
2. Got a good brain and a healty body to work with
3. Parents didn't have much money and showed me the right way to use money. (Compare prices, buy expensive things that last if needed, buy sales / lower quality items when not needed. Use your garden if you have it).
4. The government supported most of my education (thank you, the Netherlands)
5. My parents supported the rest of my education
6. I worked on average 4 - 8 hours a week during my studies at the university, this money went to fun, going out and holidays
7. Ended my studies with two diplomas (jay! well done me!) and about 5k in debt.
8. Paid back that 5k quickly, but spent all other money coming in during the next 5 years.
9. Finally came to my senses.
10. Spent the last 2-3 years learning how to live on less and saving up money. Net worth is close to 30k euros now!
1. Grew up with loving parents
2. Got a good brain and a healty body to work with
3. Parents didn't have much money and showed me the right way to use money. (Compare prices, buy expensive things that last if needed, buy sales / lower quality items when not needed. Use your garden if you have it).
4. The government supported most of my education (thank you, the Netherlands)
5. My parents supported the rest of my education
6. I worked on average 4 - 8 hours a week during my studies at the university, this money went to fun, going out and holidays
7. Ended my studies with two diplomas (jay! well done me!) and about 5k in debt.
8. Paid back that 5k quickly, but spent all other money coming in during the next 5 years.
9. Finally came to my senses.
10. Spent the last 2-3 years learning how to live on less and saving up money. Net worth is close to 30k euros now!
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aussierogue
- Posts: 379
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@M
if it ony it were that easy.....I should disown my children soon, put them in foster care......looks like a surer way to success than a swanky school
Dont short sell yourself - your upbringing - the figues would probably show would leave you at huge risk of so many problems its not funny.
Your survival and subsequent success are amazing.....
Maybe you are just wise and intelligent....no mystery there
if it ony it were that easy.....I should disown my children soon, put them in foster care......looks like a surer way to success than a swanky school
Dont short sell yourself - your upbringing - the figues would probably show would leave you at huge risk of so many problems its not funny.
Your survival and subsequent success are amazing.....
Maybe you are just wise and intelligent....no mystery there
@txzn3 - I have my moments of being somewhat neurotic also. I usually counter these by thinking "No, bad brain! Go away!" lol
In all seriousness though, meditation and learning about yourself can help in this regard. Did you know that different foods, for example, have an impact on how likely you are to be happy, experience sadness, have low energy levels,etc? Your beliefs and attitude toward life play a HUGE part in this regard also. A positive individual tends to make wiser choices, tends to think better, etc. Sometimes you just have to say "I am going to be happy for no reason at all other than because I choose to be happy". Never make your happiness dependent upon external conditions, neither good nor bad. In order for good to exist within the mind, bad must also exist and can just as easily come in and rob you of your happiness. This is why I don't care about how much money I have.
@aussie - What does it mean to you, to be wise and intelligent? If, in my post, I stated that I was dirt poor and drove a bus for a living, and yet was still successful, would you still consider me to be wise and intelligent?
@Chad - Yes - I could have went over to the dark side. But I never understood the point of the dark side. I don't think any of these people have a very good long term game plan outside of conquering the world. I always ask these people, what are you planning on doing AFTER you conquer the world? And they never come back with a satisfactory answer.
In all seriousness though, meditation and learning about yourself can help in this regard. Did you know that different foods, for example, have an impact on how likely you are to be happy, experience sadness, have low energy levels,etc? Your beliefs and attitude toward life play a HUGE part in this regard also. A positive individual tends to make wiser choices, tends to think better, etc. Sometimes you just have to say "I am going to be happy for no reason at all other than because I choose to be happy". Never make your happiness dependent upon external conditions, neither good nor bad. In order for good to exist within the mind, bad must also exist and can just as easily come in and rob you of your happiness. This is why I don't care about how much money I have.
@aussie - What does it mean to you, to be wise and intelligent? If, in my post, I stated that I was dirt poor and drove a bus for a living, and yet was still successful, would you still consider me to be wise and intelligent?
@Chad - Yes - I could have went over to the dark side. But I never understood the point of the dark side. I don't think any of these people have a very good long term game plan outside of conquering the world. I always ask these people, what are you planning on doing AFTER you conquer the world? And they never come back with a satisfactory answer.