ERE and Electrification

[jacob]

For ERE, grid-independence is a bit like cashback for credit cards. It makes no sense because the usage is so small that the payback period becomes unrealistically long or its usage is more hassle than it's worth.

I actually do see more people putting up panels on all three sides of their (bungalow?) rooftops. Our electric bill in our most expensive months (deep winter and deep summer) is something like $25 tax+fees and $50 actual use. In the cheapest months (spring/fall), it's $25 tax+fees and $10 use. It makes no sense to get panels while retaining the grid connection. Further, the cost of a battery bank is more than the cost of the taxes and fees.

What does work is going manual/human labor on some tools and appliances. Not every appliance needs to be electrified. In addition, things like heating whether its a stove, an oven, or the furnace is much more efficient running on fossil fuels (100% energy conversion) and therefore cheaper.

Dressing according to the seasons is likely our most effective way of reaching 1/4 usage of our neighbors. We don't keep the house at 65F in the summer or 75F in the winter. That is how they achieve those $400/month bills.

[7Wannabe5]

From the Living Energy Farm website:

Our DC microgrid is powered by 1.9kw of photovoltaic (solar electric) capacity. We use a modest, affordable set of nickel iron batteries that will last for decades. At LEF, our electric system will cost about $25 per year. By contrast, the average American pays $1,320 per year on electricity. Typical AC stand alone PV systems might depreciate $1,000 to $2,000 per year for the panels, batteries, and electronic equipment.

When we set out to build LEF, we flipped the question of “how do we power our lives with renewables?” around to “what kind of lifestyle can we sustain on a modest renewable energy budget?” The answer is, a very comfortable one: our houses are warm in winter and cool in summer, we can take a hot shower any time, run a refrigerator and washing machine, charge our devices, etc. What makes this possible is the magic of cooperative living combined with the design principles of a DC microgrid: we maximize conservation, insulation and efficiency; pay attention to the timing of our energy use; and live our lives in tune with the rhythm of the sun. We are advocating a globalist vision — organizing our lifestyle in a manner that is affordable on a global scale.

They also successfully grow 75-80% of their own food as well as a cash crop of seeds on a very modest acreage.

https://livingenergyfarm.org/

[theanimal]

For anyone curious in learning more about Living Energy Farm, one of the cofounders was interviewed by Nate Hagen's on yesterday's Great SImplification episode.

https://www.thegreatsimplification.com/ ... is-zeigler

Their Youtube channels also have some overview videos on what they do.
https://www.youtube.com/@livingenergyfarm1912
https://www.youtube.com/@livingenergylights1687

[sky]

Our numbers ...

Thanks, that was very helpful. Even without the subsidy, you would have a 12% yield and a 9 year payback.

[frugaldoc]

I was recently talking to some designers and architects about designing a passive house on my land in Vermont. I was told I should expect to spend about $550/sqft to build a high-performance passive house. That wasn't including digging a well, installing septic, and other site work. That stopped my project dead in its tracks. I can find plenty of cheap to modestly priced farmhouses on beautiful land in Vermont. I can wear very expensive cashmere sweaters to keep me warm and sleep under an electric blanket cranked up to 10 and never come close to spending the extra money that building a high-performance house would cost. Perhaps that is just me writing from the perspective of a person used to cheap energy. Granted, I would also have wood in VT.

[chenda]

@Frugaldoc - The greenest building is usually one which already exists due to the embodied energy.

[Jean]

The greenest building is no building, and squeeze those people in an other already in use building. Not to overcorrect you.
I'm often very annoyed that most of those green legislation are made to maximise economic activity, and not really to minimize ressource consumption.
You can build a 300 m m house for one person if it's minergy certified, but a reasonably insulated 10 m m dwelling is illegal.

I am really in favor of taxes as a way to curb decisions. Just taxes fossil fuel to hell, and then people can choose what makes sense.
There is no point in spending 2000.- on a door for a building that will never be heated, but yet, it is compulsory.

[loutfard]

I just thoroughly checked our electricity consumption at our main residence. We consumed 980 kWh from the grid last year, plus a similar quantity of direct own solar production. We sent back ~2590 kWh to the grid last year. Compensation for electricity fed to the grid was recently reduced to 0.02€/kWh.

I have two ideas to further lower consumption or align it to our solar production:
- use surplus solar production on cold sunny spring days for electric heating. A bit of automation required. I have the required bits laying around.
- a home battery. The economic sweet spot would be ~3 kWh to store electricity for evenings and early mornings in autum and spring. This would need to cost under 700€ for me to consider: 500 kWh energy savings * .28€/kWh saved * 5y payback time. Those prices are not quite there yet, but I expect that to happen soonish.

[chenda]

The greenest building is no building, and squeeze those people in an other already in use building.

Well thats the same thing. Up to a point I agree with you, but building design requirements need to do more than just achieve energy efficiency, important as that is.

[zbigi]

In addition, things like heating whether its a stove, an oven, or the furnace is much more efficient running on fossil fuels (100% energy conversion) and therefore cheaper.

Isn't heating using a heat pump (AC) much more efficient though? Or do American AC units typically don't have heating function?

[Saltation]

Isn't heating using a heat pump (AC) much more efficient though? Or do American AC units typically don't have heating function?

Heat pumps are an option in the United States but not widely used in many locations. A combination of poor insulation/house size, energy production tax incentives and a variety of climate zones leaves a mixture of oil/gas furnaces, window unit AC, heat pumps, and AC condensers. Our utilities are normally regulated state by state so renewable energy incentives also change cost structure by location with very few states incentivizing using electricity instead of the direct fuel source.

In Wisconsin ~1% of homes have a heat pump. The same goes for some of our neighboring states and other cold regions that have very low design temperatures for the heating system.

[Stasher]

Isn't heating using a heat pump (AC) much more efficient though? Or do American AC units typically don't have heating function?

Our heat pump is a dual unit and produces wonderful air conditioning for us in summer, I could never imagine going to any other form of heating/cooling after living this way for the last nearly 12 years. Most new builds are using the ducted heat pump systems and are the same as my unit.
https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/resi ... pumps.html

The province we live is working on phasing our non-renewable heating and energy sources for homes and has been doing so for a long time now. Statistics in 2024 show that we are now up to 13% of all households are or have converted to heat pumps.
https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2024EMLI0038-001043
By 2032 in the current building energy step-code all homes are required to be net-zero and achieve zero carbon step code
https://energystepcode.ca/how-it-works/

[ertyu]

Trash place gets an awful lot of direct, strong sunlight in the summer, from 10:30 am to almost 9 at night. and i'm tempted by the idea of using it to run AC. Why is everyone not doing this already? What am I missing and how do I educate myself on the realities of this?

[sky]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoMs5ssV-mM

[Slevin]

Trash place gets an awful lot of direct, strong sunlight in the summer, from 10:30 am to almost 9 at night. and i'm tempted by the idea of using it to run AC. Why is everyone not doing this already? What am I missing and how do I educate myself on the realities of this?

Yes these technologies are basically made for each other. You need the AC most when it is sunny, so it's like 1:1 in terms of usefulness. There are a small but growing number of solar direct mini splits available, check em out! Some will be grid tied, some work with literally just a solar panel + mini split. There is something about wanting a small battery in there for cloud cover that I haven't looked into too deeply, probably check that out before buying.

[Slevin]

Running balcony solar with a smart power meter that keeps you from feeding back into the grid, and either running that or running a DC system like Kris De Decker is a braindead move to any of us in high electricity cost areas. Can't be charged for power that the utility company doesn't know about. Pretty much all of us have a base load refrigerator/ water heater / whatever.

Plus umm, it's just fun and cool?

I'm in a pilot program working on balcony solar in the US, I also have 4 mini splits across my house + cottage, and a used EV (chevy bolt) which was dirt cheap after the rebates (and there are a bunch of free places to charge around here) so I guess AMA on any electrification things?

[sky]

How cold does it get where you are? Is using multiple minisplits for one house the best way?

[Slevin]

Not very cold. Weather tends to stay between 40f/4.5c and about 82f/28c. Running multiple mini splits happened because I assume it was cheaper than running a new set of venting and a bigger heat pump? Idk I didn’t do it myself. It’s fairly standard practice in replacing a furnace where the vents need replaced anyways. Heating / cooling wise it shouldn’t make a big different in power usage. Electricity usage scales linearly with heat output.

Here certainly one doesn’t quite heat up the whole space, due to airflow issues (we have an upstairs room above a carport, which isn’t over the footprint of the rest of the house). We kinda use them like targeted electric heaters (use them in the room while you are gonna be in the room). Technically they are more efficient keeping a room at a stable temperature than doing big swings, but power is pricy around here and we don’t need AC, so we don’t turn them on that much.

New heat pumps work to very low temps, but start losing efficiency below 32f/0c, so at that point it starts getting expensive to use compared to gas.

[sky]

Still a work in progress, but this is my recent electrification project. When the ebike battery is full, I can connect the solar panel to a microinverter for a balcony power system.

[jacob]

How does that deal with wind? And the ability to brake?

(Somehow I imagine with that on top, cars would keep a bit more distance.)