Sustainable living but no homesteading?

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Isabel
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Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by Isabel »

Hello,

I try to implement ERE rules into my lifestyle. Now I think we as a family live quite frugal. Recently however I read the book "Prosper" from this "Peak Prosperity" author Chris Martenson.

He recomends as a future preparation for the after peak oil (and peak resources) world a lifestyle based on homesteading and gardening.

What do you think? Is it really necessary?

I don´t enjoy living in a remote village and I don´t like garden-work. Currently I live in a city in Western Europe. We have a small house in the city center and a small garden where we plant some herbs, tomatoes and potatoes. Basically for our kid to see that food does not come from the supermarket but from the soil.

I come from farmers family in a third world country and therfore know (in case we need to become farmers) how to plant some vegetables and raise chickens etc. But it it is not something I enjoy.

What do you think? Do we really all need to become farmers and homesteaders ?? :(

Thanks for answering my question!

7Wannabe5
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I think it really depends on the food distribution web upon which you are dependent. Statistics lie because resources are not uniformly distributed across the planet, or even any small region. Johan Heinrich von Thunen, a German gentleman farmer, wrote and published "The Isolated State" in 1826. This was the first attempt to mathematically describe the distribution of agricultural resources in terms of widening circular zones based on city-market center. Market agriculture and cities are dependent upon each other, and do not exist in isolation.

Therefore, if food is not being transported from agricultural zones to the city-market-center, either food is not being produced in the agricultural zone due to some crisis such as drought, or the cost of transportation has become so high, the farmers are better off letting their crops rot in the field. Of course, nowadays, due to simple rules of economics/trade, since transportation costs are relatively low, food production has become very regionally specialized across the planet. People who live in cities all over the world eat bananas that are grown on same giant plantation. Crops that could be grown in one region, such as Michigan, are preferentially grown in another region, such as Idaho, because more profitable crops, such as cherries, can be grown in Michigan, and industrial production of non-edible goods is often granted more profitable access to fresh water systems.

So, the unfortunate reality is that in the event of sharp spike in transportation costs, reversion to a subsistence system will be more possible, but also less necessary in regions where basic agricultural resources such as fertile soil, water, weather conditions are plentiful. IOW, it is likely your biggest worry would be short-term food riots and shortages, if you live in a city center with nearby abundant agricultural resources. You will just have to survive until the farmers in your region are able to switch gears and wheels. Also, it is highly likely that the governments of advanced nation-states will act to ameliorate distribution inequities within their boundaries, and the humans in other parts of the world will starve.

Farm_or
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by Farm_or »

Are you entering the realm of thinking like a prepper or interested in minimizing your livilihood expenses for the purpose of early retirement.

There may be similarities, but to me they are different subjects.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by ThisDinosaur »

I'm right there with you , Isabel. Gardening sucks, but it may become 'necessary' at some point. If you think our current system of corporate monocrop farms + long-distance trucking + grocery stores + stable fiat currency is rock solid and sustainable, there's no reason to garden. Just save and invest a little more to pay for urban luxuries. If you think any of those might break down in your lifetime, you should reduce your dependence on that system. Since you're reading doomer books, I assume you suspect there's something to them.

FWIW, I think you're doing pretty good with potatoes, tomatoes, and herbs.

My evolving plan is to focus on growing minimal maintenance self seeding and perennial foods. I'm trying to minimize the impact of my black thumb and fluctuating interest in gardening.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

The permaculture model, which is obviously not unlike a homestead size version of von Thunen's city/agricultural zone model, can also be achieved by working forward from foraging towards agriculture. Shopping at a grocery chain store, or even an urban locavore farmer's market is just a very easy version of foraging mediated with money. So, if you think shopping at thrift stores is fun, then you might find foraging more fun than agricultural production. Food processing and preservation is the other very important skill that applies in all circumstances. If you have some notion of how to grow a potato, preserve a peach, or gather and roast dandelion roots, you are likely to be way ahead of the pack. I knew the son of a woman who still compulsively gathered dandelions every year, because she had to live in a cave during World War II.

Kriegsspiel
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by Kriegsspiel »

If your city isn't too overpopulated compared to surrounding farmland, and you can grow some food in a garden, you likely won't starve to death. Prior to modern agriculture, famines were a fact of life (China experienced at least 1 famine a year throughout its recorded history). Keep a big stockpile of non-perishable food to deal.

Freezing to death in winter due to a shortage of fossil fuels and subsequent deforestation could be a real concern. Low Tech Magazine had an article about building a human powered power plant for an apartment building that provided exercise, electricity, and heat. Good blankets and maybe a solar water heater would be good too.

For the near-term future living in a small, easily heated space, that allows you to live without a car seems better than living out in the sticks where you are forced to rely on cars for everything you aren't producing locally.

jacob
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by jacob »

The world does not have enough room (arable land and capacity for social organization) for 7.6 billion humans to become self-sufficient homesteaders. Civilization has long broken the nitrogen cycle and currently about 70% of human muscle protein already needs to be sourced from fossil fuels (comes from natgas---one can measure this) which are finite rather than the sustainable cycle that involves recycling nutrients rather than the practice of flushing them into the sewer using potable water.

So that's the global predicament ... locally though, some countries (particularly rich, developed ones) use food calories rather inefficiently by cycling them through animals for meat and milk. Note that we're sofar okay with doing this even if other people far away become malnutritioned because they're 20x+ poorer than we are and thus can't compete with richer people, like us, who buy grain to feed chickens and cows so we can enjoy a good burger. (Note how the oil price didn't go to infinity in 2008 .. rather, developed nations gave up more frivolous behaviors which reduced demand ... because there's only so much Joe Average Consumer can afford. This, then, put a cap on the max oil price. Similarly, in 2012 when there was a water shortage, lots of cattle were killed .. beef, ironically, became quite cheap.)

These days, concern for other humans seem to stop at the national borders as nationality makes for a handy team-marker when it comes to us vs them. I'm not sure how far a rich developed country would go when it comes to malnutrition within their own borders. Most have methods to avoid that such as WIC and SNAP in the US (food stamps) or similar. For more widespread shortages, there's a [war-time] tradition for rationing. In that case, having your own garden/homestead would certainly make you better off... As long as it stays yours; because you might be expected to share either voluntarily or forcibly.

Before it comes to that, expect wide price swings from time to time. And being priced out ... imagine your grocery budget going from 20% to 80% or 120% for a year or three. Can you handle that? With ERE you can. Other people tend to riot instead (see tortilla crisis).

Lloyds (IIRC) expect global famines to occur a few times over the next century. One year is doable. Two or three years in a row is when civilization breaks down. Historically, people have eaten their pets (dogs apparently make for a "dainty dish" whatever that means) and if that didn't do it, sold their more valuable progeny while eating their less valuable ones. Desperate people do desperate things. Dealing with this goes way beyond growing a few tomato plants in your backyard in full view of your neighbors. Even if it's a start, it's nowhere near the finish line. Then again, I think Prosper was meant as a practical beginners book for people who pay attention.

For starters, I suggest doing something like this viewtopic.php?p=135933#p135933 and leave the gardening to people who are into it, for now. Having a backyard garden that will supply a few weeks of vegetables might feel good, but it's not nearly as effective in dealing with price volatility, which will be your first problem, as keeping a food buffer (3-24 months) and having savings.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote:The world does not have enough room (arable land and capacity for social organization) for 7.6 billion people to become self-sufficient homesteaders.
Is it really proper to say that something is impossible due to lack of capacity for social organization? I think there is enough arable + possible-to-render-arable land. Of course, this does not speak to solution for population of 20 billion humans, so maybe moot.

Farm_or
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by Farm_or »

One of my favorite pastimes is reading history. In particular, I read a lot of regional history and that has included parts going down into California.

What Jacob said about the recent drought and repercussions for the cattle reminds me of how sparse and desolate most of this country was - in its natural state.

The cruel truth of human overpopulation and back to nature progressives seem to be at extreme odds to me. Not to say that I buy into modern AG's statement "feeding the world", but the complete opposite extreme would leave me with significant feelings of guilt.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Farm_or wrote:The cruel truth of human overpopulation and back to nature progressives seem to be at extreme odds to me. Not to say that I buy into modern AG's statement "feeding the world", but the complete opposite extreme would leave me with significant feelings of guilt.
Right. There is no rational way to address this problem that does not include preferred level of human population density. For instance, "We will continue to eat steak every Thursday, colonize Mars and create undersea domes for human occupation once population exceeds X billion." is a plan/solution that can be discussed on rational basis, even if you believe it is a crap plan. "Eat more tofu because every human life is uniquely valuable.", not so much. "Eat more tofu, and only have two kids at most "is better simply because it can be evaluated.

Once you realize that liberal humanism is based on Christian notion of human's having souls, this becomes even more clear.

My plan (systems model), which is yet to be fully developed, will attempt to assign value on basis of complexity. For instance, a symphony, a species of birds, and an individual human are all complex, but better to reserve and direct flow of resources for the preservation of a wonderful symphony than a terrible human (stupid bandit.) The terrible humans will be granted last slim chance to eke out survival on drought-cracked remnants of Southern California or surface of Mars. Something like that.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by ThisDinosaur »

You guys are looking for solutions to feed 7-20 billion people whereas I interpreted the initial question as how best to feed <10.

I don't think closed loop homesteading is the most cost effective way to live. My guess is something like buying the cheapest calories and growing some nutrient dense leafy greens and fruits is better wrt effort:yield. Also, some herbs and spices to help eating your pets be more palatable.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@ThisDinosaur:

Well, if you aren't going to worry about closing loops, the most cost/time effective solution is the Dollar Store/Aldi/Similar. Modern methods render factory canned fruits and vegetables nutrient dense, and you can buy a bottle of vitamins for $1 if you are still worried. You just need around 3 lbs/hydrated weight food per person-day, and it's pretty easy to find a wide variety that sell for less than $1/lb. hydrated weight. So, $90/month per person is pretty easy goal.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by ThisDinosaur »

Well, buying 35 pounds of factory farmed beans isn't closing ones own loops either. So what is being optimized here? I thought the goal was a combination of cost/effort saving and preparedness.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I'm going for maximize quality of life and minimize waste. In theory. Like if you could start with a littered vacant lot of compacted urban-core and sunshine/rain and transform just that much energy and low-complexity matter to the purpose of producing a human being who can compose a symphony.

Farm_or
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by Farm_or »

@ThisDinosaur:

Sorry to divert from the original subject, but often times a little bigger thinking should be considered than individual immediate solution.

Things like gardening and homesteading are difficult to start and that is discouraging to beginners. But there are legitimate reasons for the additional effort.

It takes a closer look and more consideration for what could go wrong to make this decision. When you and your neighbors are starving, it's too late to plant potatoes- you've probably already ate up the seed?

It's not our fault that the world doesn't think too long about sustainable practice. But unfortunately it will affect us.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by ThisDinosaur »

@Farm_or
Well, like Jacob said, growing tomatoes in full view of your neighbors is not ideal in a famine. Sneaky and better armed bandits, etc. So if we are talking about adopting a strategy that anticipates major crop failure, you're looking at farming off grid locations, foraging, or planting foods that are not commonly recognizable and/or toxic if not prepared properly (Chaya fits those last two.)

The original question was, is it "necessary" to grow your own food. Well, it depends...

My understanding of how peak oil will unfold is that it will be a long, slow, volatile decline in average quality of life for most people. Ultimately we will be left with something resembling a pre-industrial world but with a few extra technologies. We probably won't end up all eating each other in my lifetime.

jacob
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by jacob »

I think it's worth noting that Prosper is concerned with a "sustainable" solution, whereas I'm more concerned about a "survivable" solution.

What's the difference? It's the difference between being lost at sea on either a lifeboat or an island. The former is survivable whereas the latter is sustainable. In practical terms, the island is sustainable because you can propagate a community, having babies and raising them into adults, and so on. That's not happening on a lifeboat. Or at least, it has never happened.

vexed87
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by vexed87 »

Jacob, I hope I'm not extending the analogy too far, but why exactly do you prefer to be the one in lifeboat? Are you hoping for rescue? To me, fostering a community, being on the island seems to be the more worthwhile path of the two (that's not to say that both a transition towns strategy can't be applied at the same time as ERE, Im finding that one complements the other anyways). Are you just hoping your lifeboat sails long enough that you can find the right island to shore up on? Have you thought that far ahead, I'm assuming you have.

jacob
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by jacob »

It's a combination of how "you don't have to run faster than the bear as long as you run faster than the slowest human in your group" and "put on your own oxygen mask first". This is, after all, how life works(*). Food storage as per my kitchen link above is a practical strategy that can be implemented by an individual; and pretty easily at that too (<$200). Transition Towns and similar requires the social collaboration of everyone within a combative/defensible moat(**) which is a lot harder than buying six buckets and filling them with a couple of months worth of rice and beans. Otherwise, your neighbors or the government are just going to come over and dig up your garden harvest to feed themselves while you're sleeping when potatoes from Idaho don't show up on schedule. The Roman Empire faced the same issues when grain ships from Egypt didn't show. Same old ... dogs.dainty.dish.

IOW, I think food storage is a better solution until almost everybody within 50 miles of yourself gets a clue to start their own bio-intensive garden, ala Victory Garden x10 so they don't feel like making up for not planning by "borrowing" the garden produce from a forward-thinking family next door. This can happen proactively, maybe, or be forced reactively (in which case a lifeboat comes in handy). If nobody has any storage and you're one of the first few on the block to have a garden ... all you really have left is the experience of gardening after your produce is stolen.. but that's good also, as long as you don't depend on the food. So ideally do both, but if you have to choose one, choose storage. It's the oxygen mask of eating to stay alive.

(*) One motivational quote, either way, is that predators run for their dinner, while prey run for their lives.
(**) Which can, of course, work against you in case you want to get out because you ran out of food reserves. See refugee crisis.

In other news: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ate-shocks .. so Americans go here and here and here.

Isabel
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Re: Sustainable living but no homesteading?

Post by Isabel »

Thank you all for answering the question. Now i feel calmer about homesteading. It is not something I would enjoy. Doing something all your life only because you fear civilisation break down is not that great.

I will start to built some food reserves as you recommend.

On a second thought I think that in Europe ethinc cleansing will be more probable than overall famine. A scenario like now in Myanmar with the Rohingya crisis is probable in the future.

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