On another forum, a young man was asking about growing his nest egg. He was nervous he wouldn't be able to earn enough money in a lifetime to establish the size of nest egg recommended by financial advisers. I suggested to him that rather than focus solely on making more money, he should look at least as equally hard at cutting expenses and living on a disciplined budget.
We got into a one-on-one discussion that lead to my recommending this blog, as well as offering personal experience such as the fact that I live in a 400 square foot home, don't have a car, and live on a budget of less than 10k.
That quickly turned into an ambush where a whole host of third parties accused me of be a lazy, selfish, sponge off society, who can't be bother to contribute anything to the world.
I don't have any intentions of partaking in an internet fight, but how would you respond to this? Living off a small, disciplined budget, having no debt, leaving a small carbon footprint, building a self sustaining nest-egg, not be a consumer, maintaining my goods, tending to a garden, etc, etc, etc...aren't these good things? Even if you choose to be a ruthless consumer, and to pursue a huge income to show off how "powerful" you are...aren't the qualities I (we) try to live by admirable?
I've never received such negative response. My parents are skeptical or some aspects of my life, and my mother in law thinks I'm lazy but other than that, everyone I've encountered (especially my grandparents and their generation) think this style of life is admirable, and certainly harmless so long as I can sustain it.
What response have you received?
Contribute to society? Lazy?
This is the response of one of the main attackers.
"We get it, dude: you're really lazy. If you don't feel the need to contribute to modern society in a productive manner, please at least leave the rest of us alone while you mooch of the infrastructure that the rest of us have built for you."
What do you say to that?
"We get it, dude: you're really lazy. If you don't feel the need to contribute to modern society in a productive manner, please at least leave the rest of us alone while you mooch of the infrastructure that the rest of us have built for you."
What do you say to that?
What about providing equity as you are probably invested in the market? Providing shelter if you are a landlord? Also what I would like to do when ERE is to use my time to help others, like supporting non-profit projects, engage in education etc.
Another approach would be to open the eyes of the regular consumer about how much pollution they probably cause compared to the ERE lifestyle (eg growing own food, not owning a car etc.).
It's often difficult to discuss personal lifestyles as most of it is a matter of choice, but at least one can emphasize on WHY you chose it and what advantages you have (and I believe ERE luckily comes with much more than FI).
Another approach would be to open the eyes of the regular consumer about how much pollution they probably cause compared to the ERE lifestyle (eg growing own food, not owning a car etc.).
It's often difficult to discuss personal lifestyles as most of it is a matter of choice, but at least one can emphasize on WHY you chose it and what advantages you have (and I believe ERE luckily comes with much more than FI).
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Beaudacious
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You don't feed the trolls. You don't have to defend yourself. Just let it go. Provide your perspective to the individual and stand your ground by ignoring the outside noise.
People discredit things that challenge their current lifestyle. Anonymity of the Internet makes it easy to spit vile because of the lack of consequence. Etc.
People discredit things that challenge their current lifestyle. Anonymity of the Internet makes it easy to spit vile because of the lack of consequence. Etc.
If you tell people things they just react. If you ask them questions, they may inquire within.
I would say something like, "those seem like interesting assumptions. Would you apply the same judgements to Thoreau?" Or, "I notice that you seem to equate a sustainable lifestyle with mooching and simple living with laziness, and I'm wondering what experiences have led you to those conclusions."
I would say something like, "those seem like interesting assumptions. Would you apply the same judgements to Thoreau?" Or, "I notice that you seem to equate a sustainable lifestyle with mooching and simple living with laziness, and I'm wondering what experiences have led you to those conclusions."
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aussierogue
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champs
I think you came across a few bullies. And yes people feel challenged when someone like yourself re writes the supposed conventions. They need to find a reason that you aren't complying with the world like they do - so they use 'lazy' to beat you down.
I think you summed it up perfectly in your first point - tell them you are anti consumer and you are worried about your enviro footprint. See what they say to that? Many of them will probably deny global warming - that's when you shrug your shoulders and move on. My experience is that you don't realise how dim the masses really are until you engage them in meaninglful conversation (sorry masses)...
Brace yourself to be underwhelmed by people as you get older. Sometimes you will find good, kind, wise people and when you do stick with them because they are hard to find!
I think you came across a few bullies. And yes people feel challenged when someone like yourself re writes the supposed conventions. They need to find a reason that you aren't complying with the world like they do - so they use 'lazy' to beat you down.
I think you summed it up perfectly in your first point - tell them you are anti consumer and you are worried about your enviro footprint. See what they say to that? Many of them will probably deny global warming - that's when you shrug your shoulders and move on. My experience is that you don't realise how dim the masses really are until you engage them in meaninglful conversation (sorry masses)...
Brace yourself to be underwhelmed by people as you get older. Sometimes you will find good, kind, wise people and when you do stick with them because they are hard to find!
This is the response of one of the main attackers.
"We get it, dude: you're really lazy. If you don't feel the need to contribute to modern society in a productive manner, please at least leave the rest of us alone while you mooch of the infrastructure that the rest of us have built for you."
What do you say to that?
Agree.
It's true. I am lazy. I am so lazy that I don't want to work harder for more stuff. I'd rather work less and have less stuff. My role in this modern society as defined by that guy is as a mooch. If he is so inclined, I encourage him to work 100 hours a week to build that infrastructure so that I can mooch off of it. I will quietly smirk at his self-enforcing stupidity every time I use it. Every society in the history of man has required either slaves or suckers. It seems this guy is intent on being one or the other.
Different arguments resonate with different people. For some, the idea of being characterized as the sucker will be the thing that causes them to rethink the mentality that consumption is good so more consumption is always better. Loss-aversion is powerful stuff. Nobody wants to feel like they are the sucker in the room.
"We get it, dude: you're really lazy. If you don't feel the need to contribute to modern society in a productive manner, please at least leave the rest of us alone while you mooch of the infrastructure that the rest of us have built for you."
What do you say to that?
Agree.
It's true. I am lazy. I am so lazy that I don't want to work harder for more stuff. I'd rather work less and have less stuff. My role in this modern society as defined by that guy is as a mooch. If he is so inclined, I encourage him to work 100 hours a week to build that infrastructure so that I can mooch off of it. I will quietly smirk at his self-enforcing stupidity every time I use it. Every society in the history of man has required either slaves or suckers. It seems this guy is intent on being one or the other.
Different arguments resonate with different people. For some, the idea of being characterized as the sucker will be the thing that causes them to rethink the mentality that consumption is good so more consumption is always better. Loss-aversion is powerful stuff. Nobody wants to feel like they are the sucker in the room.
Their response to Champs question shows how little introspection and thought they put into their lives and reveal more about themselves than Champ. They would be the lazy ones and sit on a couch all day with the TV on if they didn't have to go to work. They can't imagine a self-directed life.
These same people fail to realize how little, if at all, their jobs actually add to society/economy. They are the mindless soldiers used by their masters.
@riparian
The problem with your question is it's unlikely these kind of people have read Thoreau and probably don't even know what he is about.
These same people fail to realize how little, if at all, their jobs actually add to society/economy. They are the mindless soldiers used by their masters.
@riparian
The problem with your question is it's unlikely these kind of people have read Thoreau and probably don't even know what he is about.
Trollfeeding: Reducing your consumption as far as you have done is a great contribution - both in itself and as an example to others. I'd argue that reducing our footprint in the world is the most pressing issue facing humanity. As for the argument that living off capital is "lazy", I don't think these people really believe that to be true. If you had a few hundred million to manage, a big office and a private jet, they'd probably call you a hero instead(with the only difference being the scale and the level of waste).
Tell them "I work smarter -- not harder. And I consume that way too."
But my better advice would be simply to walk away from such places/forums and people. Or if you have to engage them, don't reveal too much about yourself.
If you feel compelled to engage, you might also talk about imaginary acquaintances that might have some of your characteristics -- "I know this guy named Bob who isn't that wealthy, but found a way to quit his job already. He seems to be doing all right." This is how the Rich Dad/Poor Dad books are written and is a time-tested formula for giving advice without seeming overbearing.
But my better advice would be simply to walk away from such places/forums and people. Or if you have to engage them, don't reveal too much about yourself.
If you feel compelled to engage, you might also talk about imaginary acquaintances that might have some of your characteristics -- "I know this guy named Bob who isn't that wealthy, but found a way to quit his job already. He seems to be doing all right." This is how the Rich Dad/Poor Dad books are written and is a time-tested formula for giving advice without seeming overbearing.
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jacob
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It's easy for them to call you lazy. It's one word.
You, on the other hand, would need to deliver a 20 minute sermon/lecture in order to present a framework in which what you're doing is not lazy but in concordance with a different set of values.
In a way, we have something better than Orwellian double-speak (a constructed language in which it is hard to critique the society in detail). What we have is a kind of double-worldview in which it is hard to even understand other perspective. Some other threads recently reflected on the fact that it's better to get used to being underwhelmed by people in general. Thanks to media everybody has stopped thinking and adopted a fairly shallow one-sided world-view.
The practical tactics is not to challenge this (unless you're sure they're open-minded and you have their attention for 30 minutes) but to either deflect it (make up some profession-sounding activity ... I'm a writer or I'm an investor) or [much better] to simply show it.
I find the "lazy"-attack particularly common from older (boomer+) people with a blue-collar background. The believe hard work is a virtue. They also believe in the progress of society. Conversely, it would be the odd Gen-Y who is sold on being a hard workers and that all work betters society.
You, on the other hand, would need to deliver a 20 minute sermon/lecture in order to present a framework in which what you're doing is not lazy but in concordance with a different set of values.
In a way, we have something better than Orwellian double-speak (a constructed language in which it is hard to critique the society in detail). What we have is a kind of double-worldview in which it is hard to even understand other perspective. Some other threads recently reflected on the fact that it's better to get used to being underwhelmed by people in general. Thanks to media everybody has stopped thinking and adopted a fairly shallow one-sided world-view.
The practical tactics is not to challenge this (unless you're sure they're open-minded and you have their attention for 30 minutes) but to either deflect it (make up some profession-sounding activity ... I'm a writer or I'm an investor) or [much better] to simply show it.
I find the "lazy"-attack particularly common from older (boomer+) people with a blue-collar background. The believe hard work is a virtue. They also believe in the progress of society. Conversely, it would be the odd Gen-Y who is sold on being a hard workers and that all work betters society.
Re: Contribute to society? Lazy?
I love the connection to Orwellian double-speak there. It's so engrained in our language when something is broken we say it "doesn't work" 
Re: Contribute to society? Lazy?
To be the troll:
I am often Vaguely critical of people in the fire movement because I sometimes see a portion (not all) as not contributing to society when they have the best ability to do so: time. Not being engaged in social media ( low information diet) and not being e the unpopular voice of reason in the greater morass, not driving political change, not making babies (I know, eugenics line of thought, there but...er...the fireites having 0, or 1, with such beautiful minds and actions and the drug addicts next door having 5 seems counterproductive to improving our futures.), not doing things other than being happy and lowimpact when I look around at how much the lower class is struggling...and the ones that would create change being too busy with their 2 jobs...it sometimes seems horrific to read about another lazy day when there is so much in the world that needs fixed and so few with the time to do so.
I don't usually say that tho cause hahaha it's very judgemental and trolling and meddlesome and all. And just a little asinine, I guess. Or a lot. But I think it.
It's just like oh come on though, yall intjs are so fucking lucky to have those capable brains, can you pllleeeassseee fix this place.
Eh. =) don't hate me.
I am often Vaguely critical of people in the fire movement because I sometimes see a portion (not all) as not contributing to society when they have the best ability to do so: time. Not being engaged in social media ( low information diet) and not being e the unpopular voice of reason in the greater morass, not driving political change, not making babies (I know, eugenics line of thought, there but...er...the fireites having 0, or 1, with such beautiful minds and actions and the drug addicts next door having 5 seems counterproductive to improving our futures.), not doing things other than being happy and lowimpact when I look around at how much the lower class is struggling...and the ones that would create change being too busy with their 2 jobs...it sometimes seems horrific to read about another lazy day when there is so much in the world that needs fixed and so few with the time to do so.
I don't usually say that tho cause hahaha it's very judgemental and trolling and meddlesome and all. And just a little asinine, I guess. Or a lot. But I think it.
It's just like oh come on though, yall intjs are so fucking lucky to have those capable brains, can you pllleeeassseee fix this place.
Eh. =) don't hate me.
Re: Contribute to society? Lazy?
When I first read the title of this topic I thought “wow, this sounds like something we’d discuss a decade ago on this forum.” Then I realized this is old.
I’m okay with being lazy. At least that is how I roll now. My parents are dead and they can no longer shame me about not working. They had this intense work ethic. Work was noble. Work was identity and acceptance. They conveniently brushed off how I make more money than my employed siblings and cousins by doing nothing. It’s sinful. Because I gamed the system. I cheated. Whatever.
Inevitably I ended up alone with a big bag of money. It really doesn’t matter to me whether I’m approved of or accepted. A lot of rich people do philanthropy to buy some connection but I am not even going to play that. Who am I fooling?
Oh no I’m missing the farmers’ market. More later.
I’m okay with being lazy. At least that is how I roll now. My parents are dead and they can no longer shame me about not working. They had this intense work ethic. Work was noble. Work was identity and acceptance. They conveniently brushed off how I make more money than my employed siblings and cousins by doing nothing. It’s sinful. Because I gamed the system. I cheated. Whatever.
Inevitably I ended up alone with a big bag of money. It really doesn’t matter to me whether I’m approved of or accepted. A lot of rich people do philanthropy to buy some connection but I am not even going to play that. Who am I fooling?
Oh no I’m missing the farmers’ market. More later.
Re: Contribute to society? Lazy?
How do you want to live your life? That's mostly up to you. Some humans by contrast think that is up to them, and not just a tiny bit, but far too much.
Ignore, avoid, work around these people, or get them out of your way.
Ignore, avoid, work around these people, or get them out of your way.
Re: Contribute to society? Lazy?
You said the quiet part out loud. I like you.
Your comment pairs well with the book Moral Ambition by Rutger Bregman, which I just finished and liked. Although he doesn't frame it at all as "people who can, should." He frames it as "If you have a sense that you want to do more with your life but you aren't sure how to actually get it done, here's a bunch of thinking and research I did to help guide you." He doesn't try to shame anyone into doing anything they aren't potentially stoked to do anyway. Recommended. My main criticism of his book is that he didn't address how to deal with metacrisis dynamics (wicked problems/attractors/etc) and how that makes the What to Do part tricky. I'd say his basic message stands, though, I just wish he'd grappled with it.
intj's haven't figured out how to fix stupid yet; we're still studying it and conducting preliminary experiments.
A fairly common intj experience is that our whole lives we've offered/tried to help/give advice/etc, and sometimes people breezily say "thanks!!" and then don't follow the advice at all, with predictable (to us) results, or people just explicitly ignoring-while-side-eyeing-us before doing the equivalent of walking into the pole we just told them to watch out for. It gets old. That's why some intj's tinker in our garages after N years spent in the meat grinder.
Case in point: Jacob's come up with this really simple (not easy, but simple) methodology for freeing yourself, pursuing your dreams, and incidentally unfucking the planet at the same time, that almost anyone in the first world can pull off. Result: people make fun of his lentils, his RV, and his hockey jersey, while staying on course with getting into desperate consumer debt and torching everything beautiful in the world.
Re: Contribute to society? Lazy?
Not sure I have read it yet in this thread, but I'd like to question some people's "contribution to society". What is the "contribution to society" of a person who is in the marketing department of Coca Cola, for example? Does the world need to want to drink more unhealthy expensive drinks?
Some people make big bucks, and they might think that (also) means that they're contributing - but truly they may be a pest to society. Some may know that and not care, others may not even realize it. So anybody who comes to you asking what your contribution to society will be when "EREd" - first consider whether they have any rights to speak up about this.
Some people make big bucks, and they might think that (also) means that they're contributing - but truly they may be a pest to society. Some may know that and not care, others may not even realize it. So anybody who comes to you asking what your contribution to society will be when "EREd" - first consider whether they have any rights to speak up about this.