Hardening the failure points

George the original one · Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:06 pm

Trying to plan for our future rural home (the one that is currently designated as a rental until we move there), I'm facing some difficult design decisions.
Rural location means loss of electricity is a given. We're covered for heat with more than 50 alder trees on the property and a couple of woodstoves. The woodstoves can handle cooking chores, too. Drinking water could be a problem, but we can mitigate that by keeping reserves; with several hundred feet of creek front, water for other uses is available provided we carry the buckets. There are a couple acres of pasture/garden space, so food supply will be adequate.
So my real problem comes down to whether we can keep a fridge/freezer running. Asking the neighbors who've lived there for a couple decades, we've learned that the worst power outage has been 10-14 days (the couple couldn't agree on how long!) and outages happen a couple times per month during winter, with 3-5 day outages possible every other year.
Generator would probably mean storing 20 gallons of fuel (more than I'm comfortable storing). There's not enough head in the creek to use hydropower. Solar charging batteries is doable, but the winter overcast means I need 2x-4x more panels than most locations. Haven't yet calculated how large a battery bank is required, but charging that from the grid seems the most reasonable unless the cost is significantly greater than using a generator.
And then there's the radical solution of not using a fridge, but probable veto from wife...

jennypenny · Post by **jennypenny** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:15 pm

If the outages are mostly in the winter, can you build a root cellar?

JohnnyH · Post by **JohnnyH** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:34 pm

This might solve fridge (if not freezer) problem:

http://mtbest.net/chest_fridge.html
20 gallons fuel doesn't seem like an excessive amount to store(?). Either treat it, or just cycle it into your car before it gets old.

Mo · Post by Mo » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:35 pm

You could get a propane or NG fridge-- you'd be storing a different fuel... perhaps more appealing to you, though.
Why not store 20 gallons? Are you thinking of gasoline? Diesel might eliminate some of your storage concerns, no?
From the sounds of things, the outages happen mostly during the winter, which suggests a cold-weather location. A good cooler, properly packed, not opened often, will often last about 3 days inside meaning temps of 60-70 deg-- if it's significantly colder outside, I can only imagine it lasts even longer-- but I've never tried this (too much time in florida).

mikeBOS · Post by **mikeBOS** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:08 pm

It's possible to build a passive freezer. I've thought about it just as a way to basically build a cheap walk-in freezer for storing mostly vegetables through the winter months.
Basically the refrigerant is put in a closed loop, one end sticking out of the ground and the other down below in the freezer. Refrigerant boils to a gas, rises above ground and releases heat as it turns back into a liquid from the cool air and drips back down into the freezer, constantly pulling heat out from the freezer whenever it's cold enough outside.
You could either just use it in the winter, or insulate it really well and put a massive thermal mass in it (a giant tank of water to be turned to ice perhaps) to help it last through the summer.
Downside/Funside is it would have to be totally custom and thus, a fair bit of work.

jennypenny · Post by **jennypenny** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:14 pm

Do you have access to natural gas? You can get generators that hook up to your gas line for about $8-10K. They're not portable but they automatically kick in when the power goes off so they're easy.
Is wind power an option there? It looked like you had enough room.

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Wind/wind.htm

George the original one · Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:06 pm

Thanks for the thoughts, gang!
General considerations
1) Thinking mainly about October-March, which is the rainy-windy season with occasional snow events. In coastal Oregon, the rain falls, ground becomes saturated, wind then blows down trees or landslide occurs or river floods. Occasionally the snow/ice will break branches off. Severe events are wind-related and flood-related. 90 mph winds happen every year, funneled by valleys, and the alder will snap off, cedar & spruce just throw branches or lose their spires. Floods, landslides, and large trees can block access to fuel.
2) Temps outside will range from 35F to 50F, so I'm primarily worried about loss of freezer goods. Not a problem during snow/ice storms when temps are 15F to 35F.
3) No natural gas lines are available and I'd rather avoid "yet another fossil fuel", like propane. Diesel would be acceptable if I have to go that route, but trying to avoid noise.
***

RE: Root cellar
"The next consideration should be to design a structure that does not suffer from leaks or drainage problems during times of rain."
That's the rub. Our rainfall is around 90" per year, mostly coming in the winter (http://www.ocs.oregonstate.edu/county_c ... latsop.jpg)
I'd also want to dig to find out how shallow the winter water table is. It's likely less than 5' down, though a good site on the debris-flow ridge might be 30' down.
****
Wind power would be erratic, I think. We do get gusty wind in the tree tops, but at ground level you can barely feel it. The property is in a valley, so the tower would have to be very tall.
****
JohnnyH is probably right that recycling the gasoline into a car is "good enough". I'm just not used to storing more than 5 gallons at a time and worry about fire hazard & theft. Vehicles have relatively safe locations for the fuel tank compared to plastic jugs stored in a workshop.

jennypenny · Post by **jennypenny** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:35 pm

Above ground root cellar...
http://www.richsoil.com/wofati.jsp

Mo · Post by Mo » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:44 pm

Putting all of your frozens into a very good cooler would probably work most of the time-- durations of 5 days or less.
I see your objection to propane. I always keep a bit of propane around because it is so versatile, and it stores well for a very long time. I can't see why it's worse than a car tank full of gasoline, from a fossil fuel standpoint. Presently it's cheaper than gasoline relatively speaking (uhh... I think... gas has come down recently, maybe I'm wrong here), and it's domestically produced, if you're into that.
If you had a BBQ-grill that runs on propane, and kept a spare tank full (which you rotate with the tank on the grill), you'd probably always have always have enough on hand to run a good sized freezer for at least 8 days (based on some freezer specs I looked at). Propane fridges are usually very quiet-- don't know as much about freezers though I'd expect the same.
For me, #3 on my hurricane supplies list is a tank of propane-- so much easier to cook with it (no wood stove option, many places here don't even have a fireplace). #1 is a full tank of gas in the car, #2 is a bath-tub full of water.
Lastly if you really want to go for a luxury, you can get a small propane water heater like this:

http://www.coleman.com/product/hot-wate ... 2000007107
Unless you and yours are cold water shower types, a hot shower after 4 days without power is pretty nice.
Disclaimer: I don't have a financial interest in propane or coleman, despite the appearance of this post.

J_ · Post by J_ » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:14 am

George TOO,

When you calculate the watts you need in the worst case with the number off grid-days for freezer and fridge use, you can set up a small batteries-bank of enough capacity, and it will only need tricle-feeding on the days there is normal electricity supply.
an A+++ fridge/freezer of a good size uses 156kWh per year! (see i.e. Siemens)= 33W :with a 12V battery system + convertor it takes 2,8 A; during 24 hours 67 Ah so with 5 120Ah batteries you can almost 10 days be off grid.

lazyboy · Post by **lazyboy** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:40 pm

Dear George, maybe you could use your wouldstove to produce the energy to charge some batteries. Sorry my english is not good enough to explain how it works. But take a look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY8EGzSW8es

minute 4 shows a nice selfmade one.

Mo · Post by Mo » Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:10 pm

@George, I got sent an ad for this today and it reminded me of this thread:
http://www.goalzero.com/shop/p/140/Yeti ... rator/2:8/
I know that solar isn't likely to be very effective in your winter location, but this thing is basically a huge battery that you can charge off the grid, or charge with solar power. The battery seems capable of running a very efficient freezer for around 5 days. Probably would only run a standard home fridge/freezer combo for about a day though.

George the original one · Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:28 am

@lazyboy - TEGs are interesting... there is some merit for maintaining a battery charge with the woodstove, but I think I'm looking for a higher power level for the amount of money that a TEG costs.

George the original one · Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:38 am

@Mo - That Yeti is a nice, well-packaged unit. I find myself attracted to it, though the run-time would be somewhat short with a regular fridge attached.
What keeps me from opening my wallet for one is that the inverter isn't up to powering a 15 amp saw (yeah, I know that's not one of the emergency criteria, but it's on the list of items for "portable power center")... everything else is right on target, though!
They've really done a good job of making the unit as simple to use as possible. Storage/operating temperature range meets most locations in the temperate world, charging from solar or grid or car (though charge times are slow), wheeled dolly, etc. All for the price of an economy gas generator.
I'm not 100% sure about the claim that AGM batteries don't outgas a little, though. Maybe that's why the keep the charging rate low?

J_ · Post by J_ » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:39 am

Often we think that if you buy something you solve a problem.

If you do not use frozen foods, and saw with a old fashioned hand saw than..... are you hardening the failure things?

Hmm...

George the original one · Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:22 pm

@J_ - have you ever cut down a 20m tall tree with a trunk diameter of 0.75-1 meter and then diced it up into half meter lengths with a handsaw or axe?
While I maintain an axe and handsaw, the power saw is a significant timesaver for this chore.

J_ · Post by J_ » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:49 pm

Give me a call and I come to give you a hand...
(I always wanted to see something of Oregon where my late uncle once lived)
George I was teasing you and saw more than a whole year of your COLA going to the drain. I must commit I like also (to dream of) technical gadgets, and it was my one hundred post.