Hello all, I've posted a few times, and visit often as I find much inspiration and encouragement from you all. I would like to get some opinions from the forum regarding a change in vehicles I've been contemplating.
Some background: I own an '03 Subaru with around 77k miles that is paid off. Historically, I drive around 8k miles a year plus a 2k mile road trip once a year or so where I've pulled a small trailer. I'm out of town 17 days a month for work, and try to ride my bike as much as possible while at home (I live in the city). While I really like the car, I do feel like I've pushed it a little hard at times. Living in Colorado I like to camp, ski and mountain bike, all which require driving to the mountains. Its a great snow car, but I have found its limitations.
Here's my dilemma: I'm thinking of selling the Subaru and getting something else. Something that will be better off road, pull a trailer better, but gets worse gas mileage (and is older and has more miles). A Toyota Land Cruiser.
The cost of the lower mpg is my primary concern, along with possible maintenance costs. The insurance would be $28/mo less if I keep the same coverage, but gas would be about $83/mo more; equaling about a $55 a month increase in cost (plus initial sales tax of ~8%).
I'm not really "on the fence" of actually going through with this, but find myself looking at Autotrader and Craigslist more frequently than I'd like to admit.
There is also an extenuating circumstances to this dilemma as well, which makes this a long drawn out post. Sorry. Read on for the full story.
My Subaru was "totaled" back in July due to hail damage and now has some dimples on the hood, roof and fenders. Rather than taking the $10k that my ins. company was willing to give me for the car I opted for the "buy back" option of keeping the car and getting $5k. I then promptly reduced the coverage as much as I could. Smart right?
Fast forward to last week. Its snowed 4" in Denver and a massive tree branch fell on a truck parked two cars next to me in our condo parking lot. Totaled the truck, and the owner (who coincidentally was the final encourager for me to take the $5k and keep my subie) is going to have to take the loss on the truck as he did not have the insurance to cover it. Just like I don't have anymore.
Now you may be saying "well just get the coverage again." But unfortunately, I'd have to prove that the hail damage was repaired if I ever wanted to file a claim requiring body work (part of the buy back deal). I don't think the likelihood of snow covered tree limbs falling on the car is very high, but it has got me thinking that I'm basically gambling that nothing will happen to the car, cause I wont be covered if it does.
So now that I've taken a good portion of your time that you'll never get back with this lengthy post. What say you ERE disciples and frugal titans of retirement? What would you do if you were in my position?
Thanks for the input!
-Jeff
Opinions re: vehicle wanted
As to the insurance: they wanted to pay you 10k for a totaled car; you took 5k to keep the car. If your car gets totaled for real (i.e. you're unable to drive in it anymore) you only risk losing 5k. I'd say that risk is worth it, even when the next-door-neighbor just lost his bet. So... for how much longer would you need to keep your car (hoping nothing hits it) to play even or come out winning? I don't know exactly, but I would say it could be done within one or two years. And I think that you can risk that.
I don't know for how much you could sell your current car to buy the next one, the Toyota. I don't know whether you should buy the Toyota. How about keeping this car for the next couple of years, and renting a car that can pull a trailer when you go on holiday?
I don't know for how much you could sell your current car to buy the next one, the Toyota. I don't know whether you should buy the Toyota. How about keeping this car for the next couple of years, and renting a car that can pull a trailer when you go on holiday?
Keep the car and get as much service life out of it that you can. The longer you keep it, the more you save.
Can you sell it and do without? Because to be quite honest, I don't think that someone who owns a car can really expect to retire "extremely" early.
But if you need a car, keep it as long as it is reliable.
Can you sell it and do without? Because to be quite honest, I don't think that someone who owns a car can really expect to retire "extremely" early.
But if you need a car, keep it as long as it is reliable.
Having a car does not keep you from retiring early, it depends on your income and expenses not your method of transportation. I save 80% of my income and I have 2 cars and 2 motorcycles.
I look at insurance this way: If the insurance company, with all of their mathematicians and years of data, think it's a good bet that your premiums will be more than the cost to fix any repairs, shouldn't you agree and not pay them? If you have >$5k in the bank then you shouldn't get the insurance.
Insurance is for things you can't afford that would be devastating, like a heart attack or house fire. For many people $5k falls into this category but not for us ERE folks.
I look at insurance this way: If the insurance company, with all of their mathematicians and years of data, think it's a good bet that your premiums will be more than the cost to fix any repairs, shouldn't you agree and not pay them? If you have >$5k in the bank then you shouldn't get the insurance.
Insurance is for things you can't afford that would be devastating, like a heart attack or house fire. For many people $5k falls into this category but not for us ERE folks.
I had no problem living in Colorado car-free and still getting a lot of outdoor time in, though I did live in the high country which made it easier. Greyhound will take you in between Denver and Frisco then you can catch the free local bus to anywhere in Summit county. Could you just go car-free? If I was in your position and decided I really needed a car, I'd keep the current one, though I got burned owning a Subaru with a manufacturer defect so I wouldn't buy one again. We bought a 10 year old Ford Ranger 4x4 just before leaving Colorado. Those seem to get better mileage than a Land Cruiser (ours averages 20mpg) but still do all the things you say you need. Maybe you could look at small pickups if you really need a new car.
Jeff, could you switch to a different insurance company and not be bothered about the hail damage? (or can't they just take a picture of the hail damage and note on your account that it isn't covered?)
I think car insurance must also vary greatly by state. Here, there is separate coverage for collision and "comprehensive". The latter is quite cheap (maybe $100 per year) and includes falling limbs and deer. Living out in the country, I always pay for that. I do try to cut out collision on older vehicles, but must confess that I'm still paying it on my 11 year old, 202,000 mile mini-van. Maybe next spring (after snow slick roads) I will cancel it. But I think it is about $250/year for the collision coverage, and vehicles cost more than they used to.
Regarding the Toyota.... your 77k subaru is a baby and has years of service left. But if it isn't succeeding at the "mission" (trailer pulling & off road driving) you need to decide if the additional cost of the Toyota is worth it to you. I don't think there is any way around paying more for those additional capabilities. (you might check into synthetic transmission fluid, might help with trailer towing)
Toyotas are about as good as Subaru for longevity. But the age and extra weight are likely to cost you more in maintenance, beyond the hit in MPG.
I think car insurance must also vary greatly by state. Here, there is separate coverage for collision and "comprehensive". The latter is quite cheap (maybe $100 per year) and includes falling limbs and deer. Living out in the country, I always pay for that. I do try to cut out collision on older vehicles, but must confess that I'm still paying it on my 11 year old, 202,000 mile mini-van. Maybe next spring (after snow slick roads) I will cancel it. But I think it is about $250/year for the collision coverage, and vehicles cost more than they used to.
Regarding the Toyota.... your 77k subaru is a baby and has years of service left. But if it isn't succeeding at the "mission" (trailer pulling & off road driving) you need to decide if the additional cost of the Toyota is worth it to you. I don't think there is any way around paying more for those additional capabilities. (you might check into synthetic transmission fluid, might help with trailer towing)
Toyotas are about as good as Subaru for longevity. But the age and extra weight are likely to cost you more in maintenance, beyond the hit in MPG.
Thanks for the replies! I kept the car back in July when it was totaled for some of the same reasons mentioned above, knowing it was a calculated risk. I'm most likely going to keep it because it makes the most financial sense to me. May be I just needed some encouragement 
To answer some questions:
DutchGirl: I'm not sure what the time frame would need to be for me to break even; may be when blue book on the Subie is $5k?. I think i could easily get $6k for it now, its in great shape besides the dimples, and current blue book is around $8500. So I would actually be up if I sold it now. I've looked into renting a bigger vehicle for special occasions and came to the conclusion its not worth it (it was $745 to rent a cargo van vs. $245 to pull a small uhaul trailer back in Sept).
Sky: Going car-less was something I've considered but decided against for various reasons. Ill have to run the #'s again, but probable will continue to own a vehicle of some sort. I'm 41 so I'm a bit behind the extreme curve, but I am saving 80% of net income while owning a car.
Alex: Very well put re: the ins company's bet on premiums. I like this logic. 5K will not devastate me.
S: I had a 93' Nissan p/up prior to the Subie and that's part of what makes me think about another more utilitarian vehicle. Unfortunately, 4 cylinder trucks that get better gas milage than a v8 or v6 don't pull trailers any better than a 4 cylinder car. Or hold 4 people (I don't know if you experienced this, but friends/family like to come visit CO!). And my fiance is not stoked about another truck.
So far the Subie is still the winner in this battle (as I suspected). But keep the comments coming if anyone has more input! and thanks again!
To answer some questions:
DutchGirl: I'm not sure what the time frame would need to be for me to break even; may be when blue book on the Subie is $5k?. I think i could easily get $6k for it now, its in great shape besides the dimples, and current blue book is around $8500. So I would actually be up if I sold it now. I've looked into renting a bigger vehicle for special occasions and came to the conclusion its not worth it (it was $745 to rent a cargo van vs. $245 to pull a small uhaul trailer back in Sept).
Sky: Going car-less was something I've considered but decided against for various reasons. Ill have to run the #'s again, but probable will continue to own a vehicle of some sort. I'm 41 so I'm a bit behind the extreme curve, but I am saving 80% of net income while owning a car.
Alex: Very well put re: the ins company's bet on premiums. I like this logic. 5K will not devastate me.
S: I had a 93' Nissan p/up prior to the Subie and that's part of what makes me think about another more utilitarian vehicle. Unfortunately, 4 cylinder trucks that get better gas milage than a v8 or v6 don't pull trailers any better than a 4 cylinder car. Or hold 4 people (I don't know if you experienced this, but friends/family like to come visit CO!). And my fiance is not stoked about another truck.
So far the Subie is still the winner in this battle (as I suspected). But keep the comments coming if anyone has more input! and thanks again!
On a Subaru, I have seen 300K to 400K miles without major repairs. Cosmetics would be another consideration however.
If it was insured to pay you 10K, and you took 5K plus the car, then you came over ok. I don't think you lost or are losing anything here. If your still driving it, then your benefiting as far as I can see.
If I had your Subaru, and could unload it somewhere for around 3K, I would do it. (Saying 3K against the damaged exterior, which I don't know how bad that is.) Then your pretty repaired financially in my opinion. A Toyota Landcruiser is usually an upscale SUV. Even a higher milage one is nice. Plenty of power and comfort, and the Toyota badge of Landcruiser is a top of line. To be honest, I would love to have a Landcruiser. Out of curiosity, what is the miles and asking price on the Landcruiser if you don't mind?
I think your good to go anyway you choose to turn. If your heavy into saving money, and don't mind the cosmetics on your present car, then your good to go there!
Good Luck
If it was insured to pay you 10K, and you took 5K plus the car, then you came over ok. I don't think you lost or are losing anything here. If your still driving it, then your benefiting as far as I can see.
If I had your Subaru, and could unload it somewhere for around 3K, I would do it. (Saying 3K against the damaged exterior, which I don't know how bad that is.) Then your pretty repaired financially in my opinion. A Toyota Landcruiser is usually an upscale SUV. Even a higher milage one is nice. Plenty of power and comfort, and the Toyota badge of Landcruiser is a top of line. To be honest, I would love to have a Landcruiser. Out of curiosity, what is the miles and asking price on the Landcruiser if you don't mind?
I think your good to go anyway you choose to turn. If your heavy into saving money, and don't mind the cosmetics on your present car, then your good to go there!
Good Luck
Hey Spencer thanks for the reply, here's some more #'s for you:
Purchased 2003 Forester Feb of 07' for $12k w/ 32k miles currently has 77k
received $5k in July as buy back option so I'm only in it for $7k. Selling it for $3k would be giving it away. Just realized if I were able to get $7k for it I'd be even on the purchase price with almost 5 years and 44k miles! Not sure if I could get that, but may be...Subies fetch a premium in CO and it just snowed again!
I'm looking at a 98 Cruiser for $9990 w/ 124k miles. (http://tinyurl.com/3c2dgmr its in SLC, so I'd have to figure gas to drive it back to Denver, flight to SLC is free for me).
Interestingly, I started off thinking 4runner, but they're more expensive than cruisers!
Purchased 2003 Forester Feb of 07' for $12k w/ 32k miles currently has 77k
received $5k in July as buy back option so I'm only in it for $7k. Selling it for $3k would be giving it away. Just realized if I were able to get $7k for it I'd be even on the purchase price with almost 5 years and 44k miles! Not sure if I could get that, but may be...Subies fetch a premium in CO and it just snowed again!
I'm looking at a 98 Cruiser for $9990 w/ 124k miles. (http://tinyurl.com/3c2dgmr its in SLC, so I'd have to figure gas to drive it back to Denver, flight to SLC is free for me).
Interestingly, I started off thinking 4runner, but they're more expensive than cruisers!
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jennypenny
- Posts: 6910
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
@JWH
Just threw out 3K thinking bad body damage and looking towards salvage values. Sounds like your Sub is not that badly damaged outside for 7K. In that case your even better off!
I would have a hard time not jumping on that Landcruiser. It looks great in the ad, 126K miles not hurting my feelings any either. (Toyota).
I would be looking hard at that one.
Just threw out 3K thinking bad body damage and looking towards salvage values. Sounds like your Sub is not that badly damaged outside for 7K. In that case your even better off!
I would have a hard time not jumping on that Landcruiser. It looks great in the ad, 126K miles not hurting my feelings any either. (Toyota).
I would be looking hard at that one.
@JWH,
A 98 cruiser-- 98 was the first year without the locking differential, IIRC. The locking diff significantly increases the off road capability. Landcruisers in general have a well earned reputation. Consider though, if you were to own one from new for 15 years, it would likely earn that reputation more in the first 13 years than the last 2... just a way to think about the prospect of paying $10k for a 13-14yo vehicle.
Depending on the weight of what you intend to tow, you might consider a honda pilot. Better gas mileage than the land cruiser. Can tow up to 4500lbs-- its a 6 rather than an 8. The oldest ones are 2003, so it'd be 5 years younger, and you can probably find one close to $10k.
There are many 6cyl 4wd trucks that will get better mileage than a landcruiser and cost less upfornt, meaning you could get a newer one.
A 98 cruiser-- 98 was the first year without the locking differential, IIRC. The locking diff significantly increases the off road capability. Landcruisers in general have a well earned reputation. Consider though, if you were to own one from new for 15 years, it would likely earn that reputation more in the first 13 years than the last 2... just a way to think about the prospect of paying $10k for a 13-14yo vehicle.
Depending on the weight of what you intend to tow, you might consider a honda pilot. Better gas mileage than the land cruiser. Can tow up to 4500lbs-- its a 6 rather than an 8. The oldest ones are 2003, so it'd be 5 years younger, and you can probably find one close to $10k.
There are many 6cyl 4wd trucks that will get better mileage than a landcruiser and cost less upfornt, meaning you could get a newer one.
They really are cool trucks, but how off-road are you really planning on going? They really eat it on mileage. If you never need more than the reasonable (8"?) ground clearance of an outback, it's really tough to suck up the 40% higher fuel costs. I eat the mileage of a <25mpg car with AWD vs. a 35mpg car with 2wd for the same snow/ski reasons. But to drop into the mid teens, I'd really need to be rock crawling.
They aren't going to be able to tow more than the tiniest RV either. So between a good car that could tow a uhaul trailer, and a truck that can tow an RV, what's in the middle that the cruiser would let you tow (~6500lbs)... a boat maybe?
Remember, every single day trip just from Denver to A-basin is going to cost you an *extra* $15 in gas over the subaru!
They aren't going to be able to tow more than the tiniest RV either. So between a good car that could tow a uhaul trailer, and a truck that can tow an RV, what's in the middle that the cruiser would let you tow (~6500lbs)... a boat maybe?
Remember, every single day trip just from Denver to A-basin is going to cost you an *extra* $15 in gas over the subaru!
Definitely buy used and have minimal insurance. I make extra money in addition to the day job by buying, fixing and selling things like motorcycles and quads. You can't do that without a truck. I have a '98 Toyota Tacoma 4x4 with 178k miles that never has anything go wrong with it. It gets about 22 mpg which isn't great. I just bought a cheap Geo Metro which should get 50 mpg when fixed (same as my 400cc motorcycle!).
I do real estate investing and that involves a lot of driving to look at properties so the Geo will save money. I spent $13.6k last year and made $81.6lk after taxes (only $52k was from the day job). Geez after looking at these numbers, why am I still working a day job?
I do real estate investing and that involves a lot of driving to look at properties so the Geo will save money. I spent $13.6k last year and made $81.6lk after taxes (only $52k was from the day job). Geez after looking at these numbers, why am I still working a day job?
Just some additional thoughts to freshen up the perspective. I'm probably the odd one in the discussion, owning a 1989 Mercedes 190D with European Features (i.e. everything that usually breaks is just excluded) in Canada. I actually drove this thing there from Germany (long story). With a reinforced trailing hitch, it is rated to pull 2.8t (5600 lbs) with a nose weight of 100 kg (220lbs) (needs to be carefully balanced).
It has a 75 hp non-turbocharged pre-chamber Diesel engine that puts out 130 NM @ 2800 RPM (96 lb-ft). With 3 people on the road I measurably gets about 5.3l/100 km (44 mpg) in the city and highway.
Going uphill even with a trailer is just a question of the right gear (and some patience) rather than power.
In short, I believe it is a fallacy to get a bigger car just find someone who can build a reliable trailer hitch and attach it to the frame instead of the vehicle floor and get it certified. With proper handling you can pull almost anything with most cars. Just keep that Subaru and maintain it until it really falls into pieces. Note getting 400k on any car really requires top maintenance. Even if you have something that is said to be bullet-proof, structural rust or bad maintenance can really short-cut your rides' life.
@sky: My strategy was to buy used and old and having good teachers. Fortunately, my ride is so old that everything is mechanical and can be maintained with simple tools. When I did my undergraduate in Germany, I used to help out in my cousins shop in the evenings. Among other things, they repaired Taxi Mercs (the old W124, W201 Diesel Mercs). So the obvious thing to buy was something I could tear apart and rebuild from scratch myself. Car maintenance and the occasional repair appeared to be the biggest expense on the car to me, so that was the obvious thing to master. The second issue was gas mileage and fuel fault-tolerance. At the time gas prices in Germany were so insanely taxed that it was more economically viable to run the car on veggie oil. Thanks to the old mechanical Bosch serial-stamp injection pump, there is no major modification necessary at all.
So far in Canada, the Diesel is so incredibly cheap that I didn't have to go that route
EDIT: If you need some inspiration for keeping your car longer. Feed this through Google translate. This guy has circled the globe several dozen times: http://www.brauner-benz.de/
It has a 75 hp non-turbocharged pre-chamber Diesel engine that puts out 130 NM @ 2800 RPM (96 lb-ft). With 3 people on the road I measurably gets about 5.3l/100 km (44 mpg) in the city and highway.
Going uphill even with a trailer is just a question of the right gear (and some patience) rather than power.
In short, I believe it is a fallacy to get a bigger car just find someone who can build a reliable trailer hitch and attach it to the frame instead of the vehicle floor and get it certified. With proper handling you can pull almost anything with most cars. Just keep that Subaru and maintain it until it really falls into pieces. Note getting 400k on any car really requires top maintenance. Even if you have something that is said to be bullet-proof, structural rust or bad maintenance can really short-cut your rides' life.
@sky: My strategy was to buy used and old and having good teachers. Fortunately, my ride is so old that everything is mechanical and can be maintained with simple tools. When I did my undergraduate in Germany, I used to help out in my cousins shop in the evenings. Among other things, they repaired Taxi Mercs (the old W124, W201 Diesel Mercs). So the obvious thing to buy was something I could tear apart and rebuild from scratch myself. Car maintenance and the occasional repair appeared to be the biggest expense on the car to me, so that was the obvious thing to master. The second issue was gas mileage and fuel fault-tolerance. At the time gas prices in Germany were so insanely taxed that it was more economically viable to run the car on veggie oil. Thanks to the old mechanical Bosch serial-stamp injection pump, there is no major modification necessary at all.
So far in Canada, the Diesel is so incredibly cheap that I didn't have to go that route
EDIT: If you need some inspiration for keeping your car longer. Feed this through Google translate. This guy has circled the globe several dozen times: http://www.brauner-benz.de/
This discussion has given me some good insights (what I was asking for), and a result I know that it costs me around $145/mo to own and operate my car. That's registration, maint. fuel and parking for two people. If we dropped the car it would cost $112/mo just in bus fares for my fiance and I to go to the airport and back 4 times a month for work. To me the difference is well worth the freedom the car gives us. Registration is obviously a fixed cost, but all the others, ins, maint, and fuel can be managed to get them as low as possible.
In regards to the 80% number. Rather than set a % goal of savings I have a fixed amount I plan to save each paycheck. I know what my minimum income for the month will be and plan around that using a budget of fixed costs for the month. More often than not my income is higher than my planned minimum income allowing me to save more. Last month it was 79%, I'm expecting 76% this month.
BTW, I'm keeping the Subaru. While I would really like something more rugged, I've decided to focus on the fact that the car gives me a fiscal advantage that is the most valuable to me.
In regards to the 80% number. Rather than set a % goal of savings I have a fixed amount I plan to save each paycheck. I know what my minimum income for the month will be and plan around that using a budget of fixed costs for the month. More often than not my income is higher than my planned minimum income allowing me to save more. Last month it was 79%, I'm expecting 76% this month.
BTW, I'm keeping the Subaru. While I would really like something more rugged, I've decided to focus on the fact that the car gives me a fiscal advantage that is the most valuable to me.
raider says "...get it certified..."
I think you would be unlikely to find anybody that would certify a trailer hitch in the US for more than the manufacturer rates it for. And usually the US figure is half what it is for Europe, for the same vehicle.
My old Subie Legacy was rated at 1750 pounds, but more like 4000 in the UK. And I still managed to burn the manual transmission pulling a 600 pound boat+trailer out of a lake. Probably I'm not the great driver I thought. (automatics are noted as being better for pulling)
I think you would be unlikely to find anybody that would certify a trailer hitch in the US for more than the manufacturer rates it for. And usually the US figure is half what it is for Europe, for the same vehicle.
My old Subie Legacy was rated at 1750 pounds, but more like 4000 in the UK. And I still managed to burn the manual transmission pulling a 600 pound boat+trailer out of a lake. Probably I'm not the great driver I thought. (automatics are noted as being better for pulling)