Workplaces where FIRE-attitude is a feature

[guitarplayer]

What sort of workplaces / fields of work / characteristic to look out for in workplaces where coming out as a FIRE person is a feature? This is to do with having like minded people around rather than 'fields conductive to achieving FIRE / ERE'.

I am not going to go as far as ERE, although naturally since ERE includes and transcends FIRE, FIRE adjacent workplaces or fields of work are going to be more aligned with ERE than non FIRE adjacent ones.

Thinking about it briefly, I can think of the opposite in terms of fields of work: nursing, teaching, professions with the 'mission'. That is not to say FIRE or ERE is difficult in these fields, just that your average employee there does not think about it and would be possibly puzzled if you'd brought the idea forward.

[delay]

Thinking about it briefly, I can think of the opposite in terms of fields of work: nursing, teaching, professions with the 'mission'. That is not to say FIRE or ERE is difficult in these fields, just that your average employee there does not think about it and would be possibly puzzled if you'd brought the idea forward.

Many nurses and teachers I talk to are very interested in early retirement. Although their job has a mission, it is also saddled with administrative overload, strict time planning, and rules enforcement. An average nurse spends over half her time entering information into slow and error prone IT applications. The average teacher has a quarterly training in new teaching methods, forms to fill in per pupil, and unannounced checks where a "quality assurance" observer sits in on a lesson. My colleague's two year old had a 12 page grading report, which graded things like "able to walk using a rail" on a Bell curve of expected development.

[zbigi]

IMO coming out as a FIRE person is almost never a good thing, as this makes the management question your loyalty and long-term commitment to your career (since you've just openly announced that there isn't any). Person who doesn't want to advance (or even just maintain) their career will not work as hard, and will definitely not care about acquiring new skills - both of which are huge problems from the perspective of management.
The only exception can be a place where people make boatloads of money, like some higher finance roles or FAANG, where maybe it's fairly normal for people to have the plan of "grinding for a couple of years and then retire"? I'm only speculating, I've never worked in such environment.
Also, announcing that you want to FIRE in 10+ years is probably harmless. That's far away enough into the future that you'll still need to fully engage in the rat race for at least the next 5-7 years. This could even be seen as a good thing, since this could make you more ambitious (as getting a promotion and a raise would allow you to reach your goal faster).

[guitarplayer]

Yes @delay I am sure there are nurses and teachers who have FIRE on their mind, and @zbigi I am sure no HR person would need to hear about any FIRE plans.

But on the floor, talking to colleagues. Come to think of it, FIRE is automating money making. So when your tasks at work are to automate making stuff, you can assume you might get some resonance talking about FIRE. Or you get these phrases of ‘my job is to put myself out of a job’ which kind of epitomise FIRE or even ERE in a certain sense.

Sadly it might be a case of idealism on my part thinking things work like this and it is more a case of doctor smokers and couch potatoes (in the literal PE sense) so no resonance.

In search of harmony.

[jacob]

Wall Street/Trading... Weirdly, these guys immediately understood the idea of letting your money work for you instead of the other way around. When I told them I was already FIRE, they asked what I was still doing there.

[7Wannabe5]

I think it's very much in alignment with the four quadrants in "ERE" the book. Any workplace that is structured more towards either The Workingman or The Businessman will inherently be more "independent operator" oriented. That said, even the most stodgy with hierarchy and routine and/or bloated with bureaucracy and deadwood organization will possess likely some edge which is more like The Workingman and/or The Businessman and you don't necessarily have to kowtow your way to the top to find it. The advice that was sometimes offered back in the days when the job market was often a lot tighter than it has been in recent years, was that even if a firm isn't hiring any current positions, you could ask for an interview and present your own invented position. Ultimately, it is a systems level problem, so more "ERE" than FIRE. The "line" that divides Level 5 Optimization from Level 6 Systems is also the line that divides "Freedom from" from "Freedom to" or "scarcity mindset" from "plenitude mindset", but finding that "line" is often like doing permaculture when you are living in a big chain hotel.

[guitarplayer]

Yes that last sentence is how it sometimes feels in my working life, though I think I manage decently well to tend my little plot. Guess it is about preparation+opportunity+execution mix. I tried to talk to my manager’s manager about FIRE and wouldn’t be surprised if they’re into it. But ERE is still just too far off it feels, even if I work in systems analysis.

[unemployable]

Pension consulting. Advising others on "how long will our money last" was literally our job

[Lemur]

Well I can confidently say definitely not federal government. Everyone I work for is either a dinosaur or believes they will be working in the same institutions for the next decade(s).

[jayritchie]

In the UK - and probably before FIRE / ERE became known - there were areas such as IT contracting and oil and gas/ Saudi/ African expat type work which people chose in order to aim for early financial independence. These were the only people in the UK from whom I ever heard of such an idea. There were some equivalents in Australia which were quite widely discussed.

I don't think the same approaches they took would work as well now or work in the same way if at all in the US. Beach bars in Thailand are great places to learn about financial planning!

[zbigi]

UK in particular largely closed a loophole which allowed contractors to pay 20-25% flat tax on income, instead of the standard tiered rate. When I lived in London, 80% of my team were contractors, largely because of that loophole.

[jayritchie]

That's my understanding although it should have been lower than a 20-25% flat rate. Someone who could live on a low enough amount could still pay tax games for a while today - although those targeting FIRE seem to be aiming to work in low/ nil tax countries.

My broader thought about IT and other contractors is that it can't just have been their incomes which led to high savings rates. I wonder if one factor was that they all needed accountants or tax consultants (hardly anyone other individuals in the UK would do so) so became more aware of the options available. Plus they could discuss such things with colleagues and in the workplace whereas in more long term careers people would tend to avoid being seen as a flight risk.

I was reading a long thread about the decline of interest in FIRE and have been considering the factors which can open peoples eyes in the first place.

[Sclass]

IMO coming out as a FIRE person is almost never a good thing, as this makes the management question your loyalty and long-term commitment to your career (since you've just openly announced that there isn't any). Person who doesn't want to advance (or even just maintain) their career will not work as hard,

This has been my experience. Management needed some kind of stick to instill fear in engineering. If you were independently wealthy it meant they’d have less control. When I started my last job (over 20 years ago) some of the interviewing committee protested publicly that rumor was I was already independently wealthy and didn’t need to work. How would they “motivate” me? One guy said in my face my first week that bringing me on was a big mistake because I was rich. At the time I had signaled ER because I’d taken 1.5 years off just to play with investing/trading ideas. I told my new boss (who happened to be a foxhole buddy from grad school) that I’d found a way to exist in Silicon Valley without working using speculation in financial markets. I confided in him that I had to choose between being an engineer again or staying a professional stay at home gambler. As a fellow scientist he was interested in what I had to say but he also needed a digital systems engineer to bring his science project to market. It was kind of a mistake to share my secret superpower with him. It turned out he had more of a salaryman mentality than entrepreneur. His last thought was to sell the business for a big payday so we could all be unemployed.

During my 1.5 year hiatus from work I interviewed with a consultancy that designed the Sleep Number bed. They arranged a royalty and it allowed them to have a neat workshop where they’d do their consulting business. The owners were pretty laid back and the CEO opened up to me. He said their goal was to make another product they could milk enough royalties off of so they would no longer have to design…or work at all. The CEO specifically said “we want to build something equivalent to an annuity.” Apparently the bed royalty only got them half way. They asked if I would be interested in chasing that. I asked to do what and he said he wanted to sail his boat around the world and design custom one off nautical stuff for his boat. This was as close to a FIRE workplace as I’d seen up to then. They didn’t hire me.

Back to the original thread. I think working most jobs puts you in this pigeon hole where management thinks you just need to be there for money. The coworkers become the same kind of bird or they leave. So when you start talking FIRE you shock and alienate people. When I was at HP I recall other engineers actually getting upset that I was “living cheap” because they felt I was getting ahead using a hack. The reaction was somewhat hostile.

Somehow work selected people unfit for FIRE in my tiny world.

This was all 20 years ago. As I look back I realize I was a little myopic in thinking I had to get my seed capital by working as an engineering salaryman. It was a way but there may have been other ways where I would have at least surrounded myself with like minded people while gathering nuts.

[Jean]

@Sclass
Maybe I should tell hr people that I was having depression, heroin addiction, ot that I went to prison to explain my 10 years gap.

[Sclass]

@jean
I was thinking depression sounds like too much of a liability. Same with drug addicts.

Maybe you can say something like you were trading bitcoin and eventually your luck turned against you and you ran out of coins, and you need to return to work. It has the pity aspect that may appeal to a salaryman.

Another I often hear is the failed business tale. I tried my hand at business but I went broke and I need this job. It makes the salarymen feel superior for a moment.

People like the failure stories. Some people. It’s like these stories about lottery winners going broke. People like to hear that.

[Jean]

Would it be good to say that I tried to be a consultant, and that I'm about to run out of money and want a job?
Isn't it bad to admit to a faillure? Doesn't it means I was just an idiot?

[loutfard]

Would it be good to say that I tried to be a consultant, and that I'm about to run out of money and want a job?
Isn't it bad to admit to a faillure? Doesn't it means I was just an idiot?

- Perhaps not consultant, but some non-custom business venture?
- We tried hard, but the business didn't work out.
- That took some time to digest. My wife really helped me with that.
- subtext: I am mature enough to have a long term stable relationship and much more interested in being an employee now.
- Apart from the, I feel responsible for my pregnant wife.
- subtext: I need to provide for a child. I need this job for the money. I won't run.

[delay]

Would it be good to say that I tried to be a consultant, and that I'm about to run out of money and want a job?

Often the answer to these questions is both yes and no. For example, if person A reads your letter, and they just had a horrible experience with a consultant, it's a bad idea to be a failed consultant. If person B reads your letter, and they admire consultants, it's great. This randomness is one of the reason it often takes many applications to succeed.

Some people are clever enough to write letters that appeal to both persons. Perhaps one of your reviewers has tips in that direction

[7Wannabe5]

@Jean:

Might not be helpful to you at this juncture, but creating a self-employed business identity which is not your own name or identification number is very useful for filling any resume gaps, especially in situations such as mine where you've dabbled in several very different professions. You can just leave out the pieces that don't fit together and fill in with self-employed business functions that best match the position for which you are currently shooting. Actually, at this juncture, you might not have much to lose by simply describing your "retired" years with a designated business name retroactively. Since none of us can erase your most minimalist frugalities from our minds, I might suggest something like Pipe Stack Property Management.

[ertyu]

How does one handle places that need recommendations? I was self-employed I didn't work with anyone I can't chase up clients from etsy or fiver or send you contact info from people who received online counseling from me or ---