Bib Bob's Journal

[BibblyBob]

Hello!
I first made an account last year, but never posted anything before now. I'm 25, living in an apartment in Michigan USA with 1 roommate, and working full time as a manufacturing engineer.

I've got 3-4 years of work left before I hit my FIRE goal- 630k. I know that that may seem a huge number for a lot of y'all who have low spending, but I don't want to consider stopping work until I've got savings that cover well over what I'd spend in a year.
Currently:
Net worth - 290k
Annual Spending - ~15k. 1k monthly for living expenses; 1k for misc deductibles, annual fees, and car maintenance; then ~1.5k on travel (I know this is crazy high- definitely where I should be cutting spending first!)
FIRE Goal - 630k, or ~22k/yr with a 3.5% withdrawal rate.
My goal ACTUAL annual spending is 12k; I need to do some work to get to that level.

My current concern is housing for next year, as work has put me in an interesting situation. My job has me travel out of state frequently, roughly 2-3 months of the year on average. Next year I'm being asked to relocate to Missouri to work on site at a new factory for 10 months of year. My company would pay for moving, airfare, rental car, and hotel/apartment costs while I'm there, as well as an $800/mo stipend and $60 per diem. So it's a great deal. The one caveat is that in order to qualify for the relocation benefits, I'd have to maintain a permanent residence in Michigan the whole time.

So either I continue renting in my current apartment (rent/person is $600 right now, likely to increase to $630 when the lease renews) with a roommate I know and trust and basically use it as storage, or I find a new place to lease for next year that's cheaper, but with roommates I wouldn't know well before leaving them with my stuff for 10 months. To me it makes the most sense to find a cheaper place, fear and distrust be damned, so I'm searching for potential roommates and rooms. So far the cheapest of everything +/-10mi from my work's base location is in the $500-$600/person range. A part of me is doubting if moving is worth it, seeing as at most I'd "only" save $1200/year, but I'm trying to push through that doubt. With my current spending and goals, $1200 ain't a small thing! Moving is going to be stressful, but if I can get a good decrease in my biggest expense, it'll be worth it.

I'm searching using apartments.com, craigslist, facebook, roomies.com, roommates.com, google maps, and just cruising neighborhoods with my car looking for 'for rent' signs. I'm considering apartments, rooms in houses, and space in mobile homes. I don't think an RV would work in this situation, but I could be mistaken. I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts or tips in this situation, especially if you have experience searching for low rent in the US recently! I'm sure there are some options for housing that I'm missing.

Thanks for reading! - Bob

[Jean]

You could have a third roommate in michigan, who'de use your room, and you'de have your permanent residence in the kitchen or something.

[jacob]

Consider whether those relocation benefits are really worth it. It may mean 10k to pay a moving company to do something you could do yourself for 2k. Those 10k would be taxable with only a 3k deduction. (Numbers reasonable, but not precise.) IOW, maybe don't make this a priority.

If you for some other reason would like to maintain a residence in MI, hunting cabins et al in northern MI are fairly cheap. Consider, though, that if you're motivated by tax reasons, what counts is where you live and where you work: Wherever you spend 180+ days a year is your de facto residence.

FWIW, at 25 with a higher-than-average income professional job, I would suggest remaining flexible and not throwing down an anchor just yet.

[BibblyBob]

You could have a third roommate in michigan, who'de use your room, and you'de have your permanent residence in the kitchen or something.

Thanks Jean, that's a good point, I hadn't considered putting a 3rd person on the lease or subletting. I'd have to talk with my current roommate to see if she'd be open to it, but that's a good idea. I could leave all my furniture there and advertise the room as furnished, then if I needed to crash for a weekend I could sleep on the couch.

[rube]

I know we're here on the "extreme" forum, but if you expect to increase your NW with at least 85K a year for the coming uears, I'd focus also (a bit more) on quality of live instead of getting your SR up with the last 1 or 2 %.

[BibblyBob]

Consider whether those relocation benefits are really worth it. It may mean 10k to pay a moving company to do something you could do yourself for 2k. Those 10k would be taxable with only a 3k deduction. (Numbers reasonable, but not precise.) IOW, maybe don't make this a priority.

If you for some other reason would like to maintain a residence in MI, hunting cabins et al in northern MI are fairly cheap. Consider, though, that if you're motivated by tax reasons, what counts is where you live and where you work: Wherever you spend 180+ days a year is your de facto residence.

Thanks for replying Jacob!
Thanks for pointing out the tax implications of that moving support, that didn't occur to me. I know some of the benefits are tax advantaged/grossed in some way; I need to look up the policy's documentation to see how specifically and which it applies to. The monthly stipend and per diem could still make it worth it though, 8k + per diem on the days I'm there could cover the tax implications and still net positive as income.

Besides the benefits, I think the reason I'm fixating on the Michigan residence is because the thought of moving twice in 1 year is uncomfortably daunting. My next assignment after Missouri will probably be in Michigan again, so in my head it made sense to have a cheap place in MI even while I'm in Missouri, so that I won't have to stress about finding a new place again when I'm done. Writing it out now, I don't think that's the best justification, I'll have to think it over

[ertyu]

Moving forces one to reevaluate and reduce one's possessions and increases flexibility. It is only daunting if you own too much. Critically re-assessing your belongings and lightening the burden will help a lot with the hassle.

If you anticipate moving back to MI, the suggestion to sublet your existing room is the best. You could sublet it a bit below market rate if necessary and bear a small part of the rental cost (eg 20%) if you find that you need the incentive. A student or grad student might be a good candidate, I have lived in similar set ups when i was in grad school: moving to the couch when the og owner was back, renting a corner of the living room that was walled-off w curtains and sleeping on a futon on the floor, and what else not. Hopefully you'll find a taker.

[BibblyBob]

Hello! An update for the start of September-

Both my roommate and my landlord are okay with me subleasing my room next year while I'm in Missouri, so I'm going forward with that as the plan. I'll begin the roommate search in earnest around November, that should give me a solid 4 months to vet candidates. I'm relieved; this takes away a lot of stress I was feeling trying to find a new place to rent in Michigan. Thanks very much for the suggestion!

I've also hit a financial milestone- 300k net worth! I'm very happy. At the start of this year I was hoping I would hit 300k before December, and now I have! I've been saving roughly 5k a month this year in investment accounts and I'm proud of that, but I know the large reason for the net worth growth is the stock market doing so well lately- I'd anticipated under 10% increase in the S&P500 by the end of the year, but we're already past that. It'll be nice if that continues, but if not I'll keep saving.

The other change for this update is that I've started seeing a therapist. For the past few months I've been having problems with fear and anxiety at work, and recently it's gotten bad enough that I'm beginning to slip deadlines because I can't bring myself to talk to my coworkers. It's bringing in enough distress that I was seriously considering quitting my job, even though I knew that that would completely derail my life. I've tried to push through, to tell myself 'just do it', to coach myself through on my own, but it isn't working. So, I'm getting professional help. I've told my manager and he's supportive. I've had 3 sessions with the therapist and so far it seems helpful. Time will tell. Though my main focus is on my difficulties at work, I'm hoping that therapy will help me deal with fears around FIRE as well. There are many changes to my life I know I should make, want to make, but don't because I'm afraid of the outcome, afraid of the unknowns, or afraid of being judged. If I don't learn and practice working through these fears of change and trying new things, I'll never feel happy with my life in FIRE, no matter how much money I have.

My thought is that a lot of you may be thinking, "yes, work through your fears, that's all well and good, but going to a therapist is a cop-out. You can do all this work yourself if you put in the brainpower and motivation. Why is this so hard that you're seeing a doctor about it? How are you going to live a FIRE lifestyle if you can't even try new things on your own?" And yes, I do acknowledge that this is a bit of a cop-out. This isn't very FIRE-minded of me. There are tons of CBT books and articles and exercises available online, I could do the reading and work myself. I probably should. But right now I don't trust myself at all to do what needs to be done, and frankly I'm afraid of taking on the work and cracking under the stress of it. The past couple months at work has proved that I'm not handling things well by myself. I'm hoping that the therapist can act as a coach or teacher: showing me what to do, answering questions, and correcting me when I make mistakes, as well as keeping me somewhat accountable. Fingers crossed it works out.

Since I'm in the US, cost has been a concern with this. "Luckily", I had a health scare earlier this year that cleared out my health insurance deductible, meaning my insurance will pay 90% of the sessions' cost, and I'll pay the rest, so around $20/session. That's $80/month for the rest of the year, which I believe I can absorb without significantly hurting my savings rate.

Thanks for reading! -Bob

[delay]

My thought is that a lot of you may be thinking, "yes, work through your fears, that's all well and good, but going to a therapist is a cop-out. You can do all this work yourself if you put in the brainpower and motivation.

Thanks for your journal update! I wonder why you assume your fear is bad and work to suppress or overrule it. What if the fear is your body or soul trying to tell you something?

[BibblyBob]

Thanks for the reply! You're right that I shouldn't think of feelings as 'bad' or 'good', but in my case I don't want to listen to my fears because I really don't think they have basis in reality. For instance, 2 months ago I spent a night awake tossing and turning because I had this terror-fueled certainty that my supervisor was going stab me with a knife the next time I made a mistake. The next day, despite many mistakes, I returned home from work un-stabbed. That's an extreme example, but I also have fears/thoughts like these daily: 'I'm going to get fired today cause I have no idea what I'm doing. This coworker is going to start talking shit about me the moment I walk away from him. Everyone on this team hates me. If I ask this coworker a question he'll get frustrated with me. But if I don't ask him then he'll be mad at me because I didn't speak up. I stepped the wrong way when that guy opened the door for me, now he hates me.' Etc, on and on. And they all feel extremely real.

I wondered for a bit this month if I need to change jobs, that maybe this field is too stressful for me, but I've felt this exact same way with the exact same thoughts and fears at every job I've had. I felt like this when I was waiting tables in high school and when I was working part time as a housing office assistant in college (which was a job that required 0 thinking ever). I've felt this way when I try to meet up with friends, when I need to talk to my roommate, when I have to talk to cashiers at the store. If I acted in accordance to these thoughts and fears, I'd quite literally avoid every person for the rest of my life. Hence, therapy.

[Mousse]

My thought is that a lot of you may be thinking, "yes, work through your fears, that's all well and good, but going to a therapist is a cop-out. You can do all this work yourself if you put in the brainpower and motivation. Why is this so hard that you're seeing a doctor about it? How are you going to live a FIRE lifestyle if you can't even try new things on your own?" And yes, I do acknowledge that this is a bit of a cop-out. This isn't very FIRE-minded of me. There are tons of CBT books and articles and exercises available online, I could do the reading and work myself.

I'm not sure many people here would advocate for setting your own broken bones or doing your own stitches to be more self-sufficient (though I could be wrong, I'm new on the block). It sounds like the external assistance/perspective would be helpful, you've carefully thought it through, and on top of it the cost happens to be quite small right now. Go for the rest of the year, try to pick up strategies that could potentially be useful long-term even on your own, and reassess then. Good luck.

[Henry]

Hence, therapy.

Nothing wrong with taking a stab at it.

[Violets]

Hello BibblyBob!

I just wanted to comment that your symptoms strongly reminded me of when I developed schizophrenia around age 32...The fear that your supervisor might stab you in particular as well as the tendency to be afraid of interactions with people. The paranoid in paranoid schizophrenia. I, before the disease developed, was fearless to a fault and relatively social, but on onset I first withdrew until I barely left my room, then eventually became afraid of people seeing me, which progressed to a delusional fear of a local gang I had no beef with weedeating my face off. With treatment, I have literally none of those irrational fears. It might be worth getting evaluated by a psychiatrist and mentioning things like being afraid your supervisor would stab you to an irrational extent. My symptoms eventually involved fear so intense I self medicated with alcohol in order to sleep at all, which led to developing alcoholism, so definitely don't try that. I think it is smart to seek professional help, because after medication I had literally no symptoms. None of the fear at all. It is a huge difference in your life. My medication was eventually reduced to the lowest amount they could give and then discontinued with no symptoms yet. Treatment is a great thing for diseases.

[ertyu]

While I'm DIY-ing my therapy (bc no access to qualified help because reasons), I wouldn't look down on you for not doing so. You're doing the right thing getting help. Good on you for recognizing the pattern and realizing that a new job won't fix things. $20 per session is not a bad price at all - if therapy leads to greater peace of mind, the money will be well worth it.

[NewBlood]

I think being proactive about your mental health to avoid losing your job or worse is a very ERE thing to do. 20$/session sounds like a smart investment in your future. Good luck, I hope you find some relief and better health.

[Kipling]

I also support your paying for professional help with this. I would characterise it as a sensible and mature decision.

I had about 20 CBT sessions to help me deal with panic attacks arising from some health issues about 7 years ago. The sessions were hard work, but the techniques I learned were genuinely helpful.

[BibblyBob]

Thank y'all very much for the kind words and support! I really appreciate it. I hope that I'm able to learn a lot and get to a better place.

I just wanted to comment that your symptoms strongly reminded me of when I developed schizophrenia around age 32...The fear that your supervisor might stab you in particular as well as the tendency to be afraid of interactions with people. ... With treatment, I have literally none of those irrational fears. It might be worth getting evaluated by a psychiatrist and mentioning things like being afraid your supervisor would stab you to an irrational extent.

I'm sorry you had to go through that Violets, thank you for sharing. I'm really glad that treatment worked and you're symptom free now! My 'stabbing thoughts' incident was a one time occurrence and I haven't had irrational fears of that severity since- the ones I have now cause me distress but haven't involved violence. I'll keep an eye on it and if I have more or notice they're getting significantly worse, I may set up an appointment with a psychiatrist.

[BibblyBob]

Hello! Update for beginning(?) of October

Meant to update sooner, but have been swamped at work and unable to find time. Therapy is going well- it's incredibly hard and I'm still struggling, but it is helping. I've made progress with getting over fears of talking to coworkers, but now am struggling to fix all the problems I caused by not talking to them before now- issues and hold-ups in deliverables that I never resolved. I'm attempting to face them, fix them, and work through. I've been using some of the tips from therapy to improve other areas of my life as well- 30 minutes of exercise each day (right now it's just walking, starting small) eating healthier meals, and reading more educational books instead of scrolling. This is also a work in progress.

Last weekend I sorted all my belongings to give away the ones I'm not using. I've been doing this roughly every 6 months for the past 3 years, corresponding to the end of summer and winter. Any clothes or things I didn't use during the season I give away. I thought I wouldn't have that much this time, but I still ended up with a full tote bag of clothes and another of books. I have an 8ft bookshelf that I've been slowly chipping away at- a lot of books I have fond memories of, but I don't read them so they really just take up space. Some I may keep forever, but the rest I'm steadily giving away while reminding myself that I can always find them at the library.

Since making that 300k NW point, I've been reading through forums and FIRE blogs to review whether my investment plan and allocations still make sense. So far I've found one big thing I'd like to change: when originally setting up my work accounts I tried to approximate the US Total Stock, US International Stock, and Bond markets in every account type I have, leading to a very unwieldy portfolio with 15 different funds total that is becoming a struggle to rebalance. I'd like to simply it by making my allocation spread across the total portfolio, not mirrored over the individual accounts, by changing the funds in my IRAs, HSA, and 401k.

I'm going to make a larger post for advice in the Money and Investment Questions board, but right now my big concern is that I want to approximate VTIAX with my international holdings, but neither my HSA nor 401k hold any international options that include small-cap. My IRAs are with Schwab, and SWISX doesn't hold small-cap or emerging markets, which I also want to include. Right now I think my best option is to hold emerging markets in my 401k, hold all SWISX in my IRAs, then use the VTIAX I already hold in my taxable account to at least partially balance out the difference. Link to the post here - viewtopic.php?t=13255

Thanks for reading!

[Laura Ingalls]

If therapy is making you a better person then it good. Also those of us in the post-retirement phase have things to be anxious about too.

Both yoga and pharmaceuticals have been very helpful for me too.

[BibblyBob]

I may look into yoga as I try to exercise more, I've heard really good things about it. I know things can be rough for everyone. I read about your Mom in your journal; I'm very sorry, I can't imagine how hard that diagnosis is