Hi. Isn't anyone here unhappy in ERE?
I ask, because I'm tip-toeing towards ERE (took a stress free job with pleasent colleagues, plenty of free time, a short commute and way less money). After a couple of euphoric years, I'm finding increasingly that a series of pleasant experiences do not add to happiness for me.
Consider last Sunday - I woke up before the alarm went off, journaled for a while (I'm a wannabe writer like everyone else), went to my yoga class (a pursuit I love), lingered in their hot tub (just sheer pleasure), had a lovely thai lunch I cooked from scratch, went for a walk by my beloved river listening to a book on tape, watched a movie, called my family and chatted with them...etc. Nice day right? The kind of day I used to dream about back when I was fat, stressed out and cubicle bound....and yet.
I'm not happy. Is it depression? Or a lack of purpose? Or do I need more challenges?
I'd appreciate anybody who can relate to this, to pipe up and convince me I'm not in need of Prozac. Thanks.
Avni
Ennui
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jacob
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I think I share some of your sentiments. Lemme splain ...
First see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ennui and first graph by Csikszentmihalyi.
The thing that annoys me the most that in retrospect all the goals I've had have been "so easy" and perhaps too easy. To be sure, it's not like I'm the world champion but with most challenges (the y-axis) it's been possible possible to reach a high level with less than a decade's worth of effort.
If there, consequentially, are no "high challenges" and one---due to either ERE or INTJ impulses---end up being widely competent, one's life will be a mix of three states
1) Boredom
2) Relaxation
3) Control
One possible way out is to give a hint: Tea Ceremony.
That is, to turn [one aspect of] life [or all of it] into an art and try to perfect it. I find that this works much better in theory than in practice, but maybe there's room for personal growth here.
For me the cheap solution has been to find some new subject I can learn all about. This usually results in "arousal" and seldomly "anxiety" since I got all the critical bases covered anyway.
I'm not positive that this is a long term solution though. All it does is to make me ever more competent in an increasing number of subjects. But it's fun---as long as I don't run out of subjects.
First see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ennui and first graph by Csikszentmihalyi.
The thing that annoys me the most that in retrospect all the goals I've had have been "so easy" and perhaps too easy. To be sure, it's not like I'm the world champion but with most challenges (the y-axis) it's been possible possible to reach a high level with less than a decade's worth of effort.
If there, consequentially, are no "high challenges" and one---due to either ERE or INTJ impulses---end up being widely competent, one's life will be a mix of three states
1) Boredom
2) Relaxation
3) Control
One possible way out is to give a hint: Tea Ceremony.
That is, to turn [one aspect of] life [or all of it] into an art and try to perfect it. I find that this works much better in theory than in practice, but maybe there's room for personal growth here.
For me the cheap solution has been to find some new subject I can learn all about. This usually results in "arousal" and seldomly "anxiety" since I got all the critical bases covered anyway.
I'm not positive that this is a long term solution though. All it does is to make me ever more competent in an increasing number of subjects. But it's fun---as long as I don't run out of subjects.
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jacob
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I would say that boredom can also result from an ingrained "farmer" mentality wherein one feels like one should be working and 'doing something' to make [fun] things happen yet can't whereas in reality one just has to wait for things to happen.
Growing up with an industrialized mentality, it is hard to learn the art (<-thee it was again) of relaxing/waiting.
However, for investment purposes and for many ERE purposes the highest returns are actually achieved by "waiting". Sometimes I wish reality could run in compressed time, i.e. that I'd have a fast-forward button to speed things up.
In terms of happiness, one can not expect to be happy every day, just as eating ice cream every day will soon render it tasteless. I think being retired will remove all job-related negative aspects of your life---however, it will not introduce any new positive ones. You have to add them yourself.
Growing up with an industrialized mentality, it is hard to learn the art (<-thee it was again) of relaxing/waiting.
However, for investment purposes and for many ERE purposes the highest returns are actually achieved by "waiting". Sometimes I wish reality could run in compressed time, i.e. that I'd have a fast-forward button to speed things up.
In terms of happiness, one can not expect to be happy every day, just as eating ice cream every day will soon render it tasteless. I think being retired will remove all job-related negative aspects of your life---however, it will not introduce any new positive ones. You have to add them yourself.
Leave off the Prozac, and for that matter all other drugs that alter thinking in any form. Using those is a step backward.
One must be happy within one's own self. Meaning is that you don't need outside influences if you achieve self peace and self satisfaction.
You must find inner peace with yourself. Hence that is about all I can say here.
One must be happy within one's own self. Meaning is that you don't need outside influences if you achieve self peace and self satisfaction.
You must find inner peace with yourself. Hence that is about all I can say here.
I have also been struggling with this feeling of dissatisfaction. I was raised with a strongly-ingrained (understatement) work ethic. While I wasn't happy during the times that I was working and consider those times to have been the least psychologically productive of my adult life, I was vigorously doing what I much-souledly felt I should do - work! Because I haven't fully recovered from my work ethic yet, whenever I am not working I feel a sense of dissatisfaction, like what I'm doing is not quite as serious or important as work. Recently, I've been psychologically exploring this exact point: given sufficient health, money and time, what makes me happy? What combination of things, people, activities, etc.?
I also concluded that a series of enjoyments does not add up to happiness. Am I really going to live the rest of my life eating good food, taking pleasant walks, watching movies, and the like? I think this view of enjoyments is what we hard workers think of as the relaxing things to do when we're not working. They are the weekend and vacation activities, the retirement as long-term vacation view. Many of them are also consumption activities that are encouraged by the businesses that sell them to us. They are not enough to make a psychologically fulfilling life out of. If these enjoyments are the relaxation from the serious part of life, working, and I no longer need to work, then I need something that is as satisfying as working and enjoying. I need something that is whole-souledly satisfying, that I have the same moral conviction that I'm doing the right thing as I do when I'm working (work ethic). Maybe thinking about entirely other things than these work and have fun is necessary.
So, like Jacob, I also took to learning things (my forum name) in an attempt to ennoble my life perhaps, or just to mix with the enjoyments to try to be happier. I found many of the same conclusions: I enjoy learning new things, many more things are interesting when you arrive at the higher levels of understanding, I am becoming more and more knowledgeable in more and more areas and skills, etc. Cool, empowering, confidence-building -- and mixed with the enjoyments, a more satisfying life, but not happy yet.
I also get some satisfaction out of helping people. I thought I would get more, but there is a point beyond which I no longer am happy doing it. So, health, money, time, enjoyments, learning, and helping people - all good, but still feeling that isn't-there-more-to-life-than-this feeling.
So, while I've tried to articulate the problem as well as I can, I haven't really found an answer. Nihilism is beginning to be a word whose meaning I think I experience. One thing with working and looking forward to retirement is that it allows you to live with the illusion that when you retire you will do whatever you are imagining you will do and you will be happy. One thing with actually retiring, or simulating it, is that you now have to really try those things and face the disillusionment - they don't make you happy and you don't know what to do.
What I've tried to do is to do a process of exploring, which is different from learning more and more areas of knowledge or skills. If I do specifically this, this, and that with my day or my year, how do I feel? Can I face it if I'm not happy? Which combinations of things make me happiest? The result so far? I'm not that happy, but I have managed to become a little happier, and I'm still exploring, and it's the best I can do. I need big, whole-soul fulfilling things to do. What are they?
Specifically to the OP, it is possible that you are feeling depressed. When you are financially secure, healthy, safe, socially accepted, you are in a good position for any depression feelings that you've been resisting your whole life to come out and be felt. You certainly have the means and the time. Maybe feel and explore the depression until you no longer feel depression, like any other feeling, and see what other feelings, memories and psychological changes it brings about? Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller may be a helpful book if you wish to undertake this type of psychological self-exploration.
I also concluded that a series of enjoyments does not add up to happiness. Am I really going to live the rest of my life eating good food, taking pleasant walks, watching movies, and the like? I think this view of enjoyments is what we hard workers think of as the relaxing things to do when we're not working. They are the weekend and vacation activities, the retirement as long-term vacation view. Many of them are also consumption activities that are encouraged by the businesses that sell them to us. They are not enough to make a psychologically fulfilling life out of. If these enjoyments are the relaxation from the serious part of life, working, and I no longer need to work, then I need something that is as satisfying as working and enjoying. I need something that is whole-souledly satisfying, that I have the same moral conviction that I'm doing the right thing as I do when I'm working (work ethic). Maybe thinking about entirely other things than these work and have fun is necessary.
So, like Jacob, I also took to learning things (my forum name) in an attempt to ennoble my life perhaps, or just to mix with the enjoyments to try to be happier. I found many of the same conclusions: I enjoy learning new things, many more things are interesting when you arrive at the higher levels of understanding, I am becoming more and more knowledgeable in more and more areas and skills, etc. Cool, empowering, confidence-building -- and mixed with the enjoyments, a more satisfying life, but not happy yet.
I also get some satisfaction out of helping people. I thought I would get more, but there is a point beyond which I no longer am happy doing it. So, health, money, time, enjoyments, learning, and helping people - all good, but still feeling that isn't-there-more-to-life-than-this feeling.
So, while I've tried to articulate the problem as well as I can, I haven't really found an answer. Nihilism is beginning to be a word whose meaning I think I experience. One thing with working and looking forward to retirement is that it allows you to live with the illusion that when you retire you will do whatever you are imagining you will do and you will be happy. One thing with actually retiring, or simulating it, is that you now have to really try those things and face the disillusionment - they don't make you happy and you don't know what to do.
What I've tried to do is to do a process of exploring, which is different from learning more and more areas of knowledge or skills. If I do specifically this, this, and that with my day or my year, how do I feel? Can I face it if I'm not happy? Which combinations of things make me happiest? The result so far? I'm not that happy, but I have managed to become a little happier, and I'm still exploring, and it's the best I can do. I need big, whole-soul fulfilling things to do. What are they?
Specifically to the OP, it is possible that you are feeling depressed. When you are financially secure, healthy, safe, socially accepted, you are in a good position for any depression feelings that you've been resisting your whole life to come out and be felt. You certainly have the means and the time. Maybe feel and explore the depression until you no longer feel depression, like any other feeling, and see what other feelings, memories and psychological changes it brings about? Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller may be a helpful book if you wish to undertake this type of psychological self-exploration.
Perhaps you need more in your life than pleasure to be satisfied? Our culture has taught us that pleasure and an "easy" life are worthy goals. But are they really?
Once you have near endless access to these things the easy, traditional motivators are gone. I think at least some of us are driven by challenges and hardship.
Perhaps you can find a "cause" or two you believe in. If its a good cause challenges will either be inherent or will come.
Give away more of your time, energy, efforts. A life of (partial) service instead of pursuing pleasure.
Once you have near endless access to these things the easy, traditional motivators are gone. I think at least some of us are driven by challenges and hardship.
Perhaps you can find a "cause" or two you believe in. If its a good cause challenges will either be inherent or will come.
Give away more of your time, energy, efforts. A life of (partial) service instead of pursuing pleasure.
An endless series of pleasant experiences not adding up to happiness? Sounds like Rasselas escaping from the Happy Valley (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/652).
IMO the best advice: “Do not suffer life to stagnate; it will grow muddy for want of motion . . . .”
I see ERE as more about freedom than attempting to establish some semi-Eden of pleasant comfort where I can remain happy, especially when comfort itself acts as a type of golden handcuffs. I wouldn’t want to build a nice cushy prison just to replace an uncomfortable one.
On the drugs, though I like @HSpencer’s advice, the anti-depressants do have their function (doctor’s diagnosis and supervision) and I have seen them help people come back from debilitating depression even where the patient was against taking them to start. But none of them are actually happy pills, and unhappiness is not a mere Prozac deficiency.
I find it useful to consider the basic philosophical problem: If there were a happy pill that would make you ecstatically, joyously happy all the time for the rest of your days (making even your dreams euphoric), but like the red pill, once swallowed there was no going back, would you take it?
I would not. Whatever this life is about, perpetuating euphoric feelings is just not it, so I don’t waste time dreaming of better living through chemistry
IMO the best advice: “Do not suffer life to stagnate; it will grow muddy for want of motion . . . .”
I see ERE as more about freedom than attempting to establish some semi-Eden of pleasant comfort where I can remain happy, especially when comfort itself acts as a type of golden handcuffs. I wouldn’t want to build a nice cushy prison just to replace an uncomfortable one.
On the drugs, though I like @HSpencer’s advice, the anti-depressants do have their function (doctor’s diagnosis and supervision) and I have seen them help people come back from debilitating depression even where the patient was against taking them to start. But none of them are actually happy pills, and unhappiness is not a mere Prozac deficiency.
I find it useful to consider the basic philosophical problem: If there were a happy pill that would make you ecstatically, joyously happy all the time for the rest of your days (making even your dreams euphoric), but like the red pill, once swallowed there was no going back, would you take it?
I would not. Whatever this life is about, perpetuating euphoric feelings is just not it, so I don’t waste time dreaming of better living through chemistry
Thanks everyone for the responses. So no Prozac is the consensus and it does help to know other people are in the same boat.
That said, I'm still wondering what some concrete solutions to this problem might be. I think that someone young and free like myself ought to be aiming at something. I prefer to actively direct my life (can't quite resign myself to sitting back and letting things happen). The problem is of course, that if the money/comfort/pleasure motivations are gone (and let's take god off the table), how do you decide what the next thing should be?
As an aside, I have tried altruism/volunteering and to be honest, all it did was convince me that at least in North America (among healthy adults) most human misery is self-inflicted. I still do it of course, but I am not noble enough to dedicate my life to it. And I do want to dedicate it to something.
Any thoughts would be great.
Avni
That said, I'm still wondering what some concrete solutions to this problem might be. I think that someone young and free like myself ought to be aiming at something. I prefer to actively direct my life (can't quite resign myself to sitting back and letting things happen). The problem is of course, that if the money/comfort/pleasure motivations are gone (and let's take god off the table), how do you decide what the next thing should be?
As an aside, I have tried altruism/volunteering and to be honest, all it did was convince me that at least in North America (among healthy adults) most human misery is self-inflicted. I still do it of course, but I am not noble enough to dedicate my life to it. And I do want to dedicate it to something.
Any thoughts would be great.
Avni
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jacob
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Typically,
SP - Experiencing/traveling.
SJ - Service.
NT - Learning things/taking over the world.
NF - Finding "religion"/discovering your inner self.
This is just to say that there's not one universal solution to this problem. I see many suggestions to the effect that "whenever everything else fails" true meaning can be found in X.
However, it does seem that "meaning" can always be found in something. Whether that's building bird houses of achieving hachidan in Kendo, being on the local water and air board, or setting foot in all the countries of the world is a matter of details. Be careful about avoiding some kind of existentialist crisis as to whether anything has ultimate meaning. This is a waste of time. Either nothing has meaning or everything has meaning. Working for a living has exactly the same problem except that it usually provides enough distractions to avoid this particular abyss of having self-reflection being stuck in a feedback howl.
My solution has been to take an Franklin approach or more specifically to cover the seven bases I outlined in the book. When I was working, I explored intellectual challenges and had physiological/exercise challenges as a hobby. For the blog/ERE I explored social and financial challenges. Currently, I'm interested in technical and ecological challenges.
SP - Experiencing/traveling.
SJ - Service.
NT - Learning things/taking over the world.
NF - Finding "religion"/discovering your inner self.
This is just to say that there's not one universal solution to this problem. I see many suggestions to the effect that "whenever everything else fails" true meaning can be found in X.
However, it does seem that "meaning" can always be found in something. Whether that's building bird houses of achieving hachidan in Kendo, being on the local water and air board, or setting foot in all the countries of the world is a matter of details. Be careful about avoiding some kind of existentialist crisis as to whether anything has ultimate meaning. This is a waste of time. Either nothing has meaning or everything has meaning. Working for a living has exactly the same problem except that it usually provides enough distractions to avoid this particular abyss of having self-reflection being stuck in a feedback howl.
My solution has been to take an Franklin approach or more specifically to cover the seven bases I outlined in the book. When I was working, I explored intellectual challenges and had physiological/exercise challenges as a hobby. For the blog/ERE I explored social and financial challenges. Currently, I'm interested in technical and ecological challenges.
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For myself, following my own interests is the meat & potatoes, but communicating those interests/discoveries to others serves the altruistic side. The tough part is not prosyletizing... rather I must remember to just provide the exposure and let others interests pick up from there.
Thus helping racing newbies discover their talents or taking friends to new fishing territory or helping coworkers solve their garden woes are the world that I look forward to.
Now I just need to grind out the next few years of work (sigh).
Thus helping racing newbies discover their talents or taking friends to new fishing territory or helping coworkers solve their garden woes are the world that I look forward to.
Now I just need to grind out the next few years of work (sigh).
I should stay out of this thread, but I wanted to say it must be nice to have an opportunity to actually be bored. Personally, I have never experienced that feeling. I went with the attitude that "life could be a bitch if it weren't so damn much fun". Even when I was lying on the couch sick (very seldom) I would be thinking of all the things I will get around to once my headache, neck ache, back ache, sinus problem, BPH, or what ever was bothering me ended. I did not like getting ill or out of sorts, but over the lifetime, I experienced it once and a while. I cured most of it with 750 mg of Asprin, Advil Cold and Sinus, or Bactrim. Sometimes Bactrim by the five pound sack(just kidding). But when one fills the commode with blood, you get a tad spooked.
One Bactrim and I am as happy as if I had good sense.
On the drugs: Once I was given a prescription for Darvon caps by my Dr. I had lost a battle with a wall hung cabinet, and I had quite a sore shoulder. I tried the Darvon, and when I woke up I had no clue where I was, and I went outside and thought I could sit in a lawn chair and watch my own house burn down and laugh about it. That was my ending experience with anything like that. Now I grit my teeth and take something like Tylenol.
Anyway, don't go with any narcotic or mind control drug.
Life is wonderful. We had a couple of sayings:
LABTYD: "Life's a bitch, then you die".
LABTYMO: "Life's a bitch, then you marry one".
(These, of course are jokes, and yes my wonderful wife, of 44 years, knows the LABTYMO part.
Anyway, just keep on truckin'. Life is too much fun to waste ANY of it whining around about anything. Life is like a popsicle on a hot July sidewalk, it is going, going, gone.
Life is precious. When you top the age 60 mark you will cuss yourself for not doing more and more and more when you had the chance.
As I said, I should have kept out of this thread.
I will close with "Life is the most precious thing you have".
Don't spend one minute in vain.
(And I did not go into God or the US Marine Corps, so that part you won't have to endure in my post!!!).
One Bactrim and I am as happy as if I had good sense.
On the drugs: Once I was given a prescription for Darvon caps by my Dr. I had lost a battle with a wall hung cabinet, and I had quite a sore shoulder. I tried the Darvon, and when I woke up I had no clue where I was, and I went outside and thought I could sit in a lawn chair and watch my own house burn down and laugh about it. That was my ending experience with anything like that. Now I grit my teeth and take something like Tylenol.
Anyway, don't go with any narcotic or mind control drug.
Life is wonderful. We had a couple of sayings:
LABTYD: "Life's a bitch, then you die".
LABTYMO: "Life's a bitch, then you marry one".
(These, of course are jokes, and yes my wonderful wife, of 44 years, knows the LABTYMO part.
Anyway, just keep on truckin'. Life is too much fun to waste ANY of it whining around about anything. Life is like a popsicle on a hot July sidewalk, it is going, going, gone.
Life is precious. When you top the age 60 mark you will cuss yourself for not doing more and more and more when you had the chance.
As I said, I should have kept out of this thread.
I will close with "Life is the most precious thing you have".
Don't spend one minute in vain.
(And I did not go into God or the US Marine Corps, so that part you won't have to endure in my post!!!).
I've been living the "ERE" life for about a decade and there are times that I fight ennui. Its lonely when you're ERE and no one else is. The absolute joy of time to call your own fades after a couple of years.
I'm an "NF" and it now makes sense, after reading it in a previous post, why I have spent much of my time in spiritual pursuits like saying the daily office and other devotions. This brings me great peace of mind, among other benefits. Perhaps you could develop your innate spiritually if you have a faith tradition that you practice.
I've found that I would continue to work part-time not only for the financial renumeration but for the social bonding that I thought I would never need--but did.
Once you ease into a routine that you enjoy, your life will begin to make sense. If you need to make changes; go for it. Ennui is very normal because, lets face it, we don't fit into modern consumer culture. Prozac will only mask the symptoms and not treat the underlying causes--IMHO.
djc
I'm an "NF" and it now makes sense, after reading it in a previous post, why I have spent much of my time in spiritual pursuits like saying the daily office and other devotions. This brings me great peace of mind, among other benefits. Perhaps you could develop your innate spiritually if you have a faith tradition that you practice.
I've found that I would continue to work part-time not only for the financial renumeration but for the social bonding that I thought I would never need--but did.
Once you ease into a routine that you enjoy, your life will begin to make sense. If you need to make changes; go for it. Ennui is very normal because, lets face it, we don't fit into modern consumer culture. Prozac will only mask the symptoms and not treat the underlying causes--IMHO.
djc
As more of a followup question than any valuable contribution, I'm curious about @Avni and @Learning - about their ages and whether or not they have children or spouses? Not to be too nosy, but I can really relate to this post and @learnings followup.
I'm haven't even retired yet but I already struggle with this to some degree. Through my late 30's I was always into new or continuing hobbies or activities taking up all my free hours. In the few years since, I feel less enthused about learning new things and new hobbies. At times I feel myself stepping back and questioning the point of a particular activity rather than jumping in like I would have in the past. The more mundane things seem to just seem like time killers to make the days go by.
So my hopes it that by taking out the substantial negatives from my life (work/stress... which has coincided to some degree with these increased feelings), I will regain an appreciation for those type of simple pleasure and at least regain a level of contentment.
The other consideration is that I am single with no children, and although I don't consciously miss that, at times I wonder if there's an instinct surrounding that part of a person's life that could contribute to that those types of feelings. That's why the nosy question...
It's interesting to hear similar thoughts on one of my concerns of retiring with so much road left to travel... also found @jacob's advice on point as usual.
I'm haven't even retired yet but I already struggle with this to some degree. Through my late 30's I was always into new or continuing hobbies or activities taking up all my free hours. In the few years since, I feel less enthused about learning new things and new hobbies. At times I feel myself stepping back and questioning the point of a particular activity rather than jumping in like I would have in the past. The more mundane things seem to just seem like time killers to make the days go by.
So my hopes it that by taking out the substantial negatives from my life (work/stress... which has coincided to some degree with these increased feelings), I will regain an appreciation for those type of simple pleasure and at least regain a level of contentment.
The other consideration is that I am single with no children, and although I don't consciously miss that, at times I wonder if there's an instinct surrounding that part of a person's life that could contribute to that those types of feelings. That's why the nosy question...
It's interesting to hear similar thoughts on one of my concerns of retiring with so much road left to travel... also found @jacob's advice on point as usual.
@vern Yeah, but I still want to try - this is my life and happiness we're talking about here!
@EMJ Well, it's true that a long series of self indulgences hardly seems so respect-worthy, but my life really is easy and comfortable. I do feel this urge to make things more difficult for myself, to do something big, a challenge, something hard. But I feel that there is something arbitrary about it when they're not real life problems. This could also be part of my work ethic and of the way my father raised me, also pushing me to do hard things, not considering it good enough when I did things well unless they were very hard to do.
@Hoplite what do you do with the years once you're free?
@Avni I also like to be more active about pursuing happiness. While I don't have any big answers, I've been surprised by how much an active attitude can make me have a better day or not. By re-evaluating everything according to whether it makes me happy, combined with exploring new things with the same criterion, I have been able to find some people and things I enjoy more than others.
It also helps me to know that you had the same experience with volunteering.
@Sky (from before my previous reply) This is another of the tempting illusions, currently in the bike-tour-around-some-big-part-of-the-world incarnation. The problem is, I've tried this before, budget traveling through Latin America, and I found that I get bored of traveling after a few weeks or months.
@djc Yes, I also feel lonely sometimes when everybody else within a few decades of my age is working with most of their life and spending more money than I can spend with the other part.
@Jacob and @chilly This is sort of a response to you guys (I'm getting tired). First, I'm mid 30s, I live with my girlfriend and I have no children. I think for many people raising children may be like having a career - they can cling to their illusions of what will make them happy after the decades of self-denial are over. Second, I also had that "not another leisure activity" feeling. OK, now I'll play ping pong, then maybe I'll sail... What's the difference, on some level?
Similar to Jacob, I've tried a multi-pronged approach. I've basically tried to improve all the areas of my life (or am in long-term processes to do so). So, health and money for starters. Material stuff. Personal activities, including intellectual, psychological and physical. Helping people. Exploring. Maybe traveling, but definitely meeting more people where I currently live, maybe living in different places over time.
And social life. I tried to improve or, better, to optimize my relationships with my family members as much as possible, but I've maxed that out. I think a big part of what joy or emotional richness of life that I do get comes from my girlfriend. Feeling that she loves me and is there for me, loving her, those are nice feelings. It's not perfect, of course, but it is one of the good things. I also feel better when I have more friends around, but here I run into the ERE divide that @djc mentioned from most of the people I know, among other divides. I'm still trying on this one.
I've also found that I enjoy most the romantic and friend relationships that develop over a long period of time. Rather than getting boring, with the right people, it takes several years to get really interesting. You start to really trust and rely on each other, if you're both trustworthy and reliable, which you've had the time to find out and test through experience. You've met and know all their family and friends, everybody they know and having feeling for. You've seen how well or badly they treat their partners, their friends, their employees. You see that you're not going to get hurt and that you are going to get supported, if you have such a supportive, gentle person. You know a lot about what each other think and feel. You've taught each other stuff and learned where you disagree and probably aren't going to change your mind. You're living well together and learning, exploring, healing and doing stuff together.
To get to this stage, it takes finding the right people and time. This means that you have to live around the same people for a while, and then once you've arrived at this point, to continue to enjoy it, you've got to continue to live around them. Which means that discontinuities like that adventurous year around Eurasia on a bike would interrupt that. Also, meeting people while traveling is cool, but you never get to this point unless you really bring them into your life, which almost means you've got to go live near each other, although you can keep getting to know each other better using telecommunications. But, then you've got your people spread out all over the world, and it's definitely better to have more people where you live and can see them every day, especially if you're ERE and have lots of time.
OK, I'm tired and passed incoherent.
@EMJ Well, it's true that a long series of self indulgences hardly seems so respect-worthy, but my life really is easy and comfortable. I do feel this urge to make things more difficult for myself, to do something big, a challenge, something hard. But I feel that there is something arbitrary about it when they're not real life problems. This could also be part of my work ethic and of the way my father raised me, also pushing me to do hard things, not considering it good enough when I did things well unless they were very hard to do.
@Hoplite what do you do with the years once you're free?
@Avni I also like to be more active about pursuing happiness. While I don't have any big answers, I've been surprised by how much an active attitude can make me have a better day or not. By re-evaluating everything according to whether it makes me happy, combined with exploring new things with the same criterion, I have been able to find some people and things I enjoy more than others.
It also helps me to know that you had the same experience with volunteering.
@Sky (from before my previous reply) This is another of the tempting illusions, currently in the bike-tour-around-some-big-part-of-the-world incarnation. The problem is, I've tried this before, budget traveling through Latin America, and I found that I get bored of traveling after a few weeks or months.
@djc Yes, I also feel lonely sometimes when everybody else within a few decades of my age is working with most of their life and spending more money than I can spend with the other part.
@Jacob and @chilly This is sort of a response to you guys (I'm getting tired). First, I'm mid 30s, I live with my girlfriend and I have no children. I think for many people raising children may be like having a career - they can cling to their illusions of what will make them happy after the decades of self-denial are over. Second, I also had that "not another leisure activity" feeling. OK, now I'll play ping pong, then maybe I'll sail... What's the difference, on some level?
Similar to Jacob, I've tried a multi-pronged approach. I've basically tried to improve all the areas of my life (or am in long-term processes to do so). So, health and money for starters. Material stuff. Personal activities, including intellectual, psychological and physical. Helping people. Exploring. Maybe traveling, but definitely meeting more people where I currently live, maybe living in different places over time.
And social life. I tried to improve or, better, to optimize my relationships with my family members as much as possible, but I've maxed that out. I think a big part of what joy or emotional richness of life that I do get comes from my girlfriend. Feeling that she loves me and is there for me, loving her, those are nice feelings. It's not perfect, of course, but it is one of the good things. I also feel better when I have more friends around, but here I run into the ERE divide that @djc mentioned from most of the people I know, among other divides. I'm still trying on this one.
I've also found that I enjoy most the romantic and friend relationships that develop over a long period of time. Rather than getting boring, with the right people, it takes several years to get really interesting. You start to really trust and rely on each other, if you're both trustworthy and reliable, which you've had the time to find out and test through experience. You've met and know all their family and friends, everybody they know and having feeling for. You've seen how well or badly they treat their partners, their friends, their employees. You see that you're not going to get hurt and that you are going to get supported, if you have such a supportive, gentle person. You know a lot about what each other think and feel. You've taught each other stuff and learned where you disagree and probably aren't going to change your mind. You're living well together and learning, exploring, healing and doing stuff together.
To get to this stage, it takes finding the right people and time. This means that you have to live around the same people for a while, and then once you've arrived at this point, to continue to enjoy it, you've got to continue to live around them. Which means that discontinuities like that adventurous year around Eurasia on a bike would interrupt that. Also, meeting people while traveling is cool, but you never get to this point unless you really bring them into your life, which almost means you've got to go live near each other, although you can keep getting to know each other better using telecommunications. But, then you've got your people spread out all over the world, and it's definitely better to have more people where you live and can see them every day, especially if you're ERE and have lots of time.
OK, I'm tired and passed incoherent.
"Ennui is very normal because, lets face it, we don't fit into modern consumer culture."
I hear this statement a lot, but I don't think it's entirely true (by the way this is not a criticism of djc. djc just happened to say it). I don't think we as a species "fits" anywhere. My point being is that I don't think there is a natural fit for human beings, because we can question everything and this always makes us unhappy...with everything.
You have to find what matters to you, which maybe the hardest thing most of us do in life. We also assume that once we find one thing it should consume us for the rest of our lives. Well, who can be pumped about one specific thing for your entire life? I just don't think it's possible, which is probably why you see a lot people have a big 3-5 year creativity spurt in their profession but are never able to do it again. They lose some of that fire for it over time.
An article in Men's Journal or Best Life examined a study done of aging athletes and determined that athletic declines were not the result of age (very very small decline due to age), but of less intense workouts/training. The article suggested that people forgot how to train hard or just didn't want to train hard anymore after 20 years at a professional level. They were burnt out.
I think the same would go for anything, so switching up your interests every now and then is one key to finding happiness with a ton of time.
I hear this statement a lot, but I don't think it's entirely true (by the way this is not a criticism of djc. djc just happened to say it). I don't think we as a species "fits" anywhere. My point being is that I don't think there is a natural fit for human beings, because we can question everything and this always makes us unhappy...with everything.
You have to find what matters to you, which maybe the hardest thing most of us do in life. We also assume that once we find one thing it should consume us for the rest of our lives. Well, who can be pumped about one specific thing for your entire life? I just don't think it's possible, which is probably why you see a lot people have a big 3-5 year creativity spurt in their profession but are never able to do it again. They lose some of that fire for it over time.
An article in Men's Journal or Best Life examined a study done of aging athletes and determined that athletic declines were not the result of age (very very small decline due to age), but of less intense workouts/training. The article suggested that people forgot how to train hard or just didn't want to train hard anymore after 20 years at a professional level. They were burnt out.
I think the same would go for anything, so switching up your interests every now and then is one key to finding happiness with a ton of time.
@learning Thank you for expressing so well why I've become disillusioned with the "location independent lifestyle". I think this is easier for people who form shallow friendships easily or are true hermits. I too like having just a few deep friendships that take years to develop. As far as solving the boredom problem, I really don't know because I'm not ERE yet. I tend to think we're naturally adapted to have some level of difficultly in our daily life, so removing all challenge from your life isn't a good idea. At least when you're ERE you get to pick your struggle.