Early Retirement Extreme Forums

Scordatura wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 21, 2025 4:32 pm

I notice you've had the time and inclination to stop by and give feedback on my musical endeavors. (Thank you.) You could perhaps enhance your own. Hit the local music scene. Do lessons at the local college. Something with a public performance at the summit.

I also notice you listed volunteering as a value in the beginning, but didn't see anything on that since. Did I miss it? Have you executed and not written about it?

Heavy emphasis has been placed on exercise. Have you competed? Bodybuilding, powerlifting, and crossfit have competitions. You would know more than I, but it seemed like an obvious suggestion.

I would point out that the feeling of something missing is basically the human condition. It might actually be an internal state rather than an external lack of hustle. Only you, by personal experimentation, may tell.

Guitar is one of the hobbies that I put on the backburner basically my entire working career and thought I would re-engage in after shifting to semi-ERE. I think it's another thing I'll be able to explore further once we have some more space in the new house. Guitar was almost my entire focus, other than school, from age 15-17 or so. To this day my left hand is slightly bigger than my right, which I attribute to stretching my fretting hand over many hours of guitar practice. I almost majored in music in college but my auditions didn't go as well as I hoped and instead of continuing to pursue it, I decided to go a different route (which in hindsight was the right move given how it feels like every year it gets harder to make money from music). The nice thing about learning guitar initially when I was in my formative pubescent years is that it seems like I've retained a lot of the muscle memory deep in my brain. So I can go months or years without touching a guitar and still hit some Hendrix chord embellishments or blues licks when I pick up a guitar.

One issue I had with my approach to guitar and music in general as a teenager was that it consumed too much of my identity. I think this was ultimately detrimental to my development and I hope to now be able to better engage with it thanks to more mature perspective. Now I can just play because I want to instead of feeling like I need to perform to a certain level because my identity is completely tied to musician or rockstar. Another issue to my approach was a spent a little too much time woodshedding in my bedroom and not enough time playing IRL with other musicians. In project management terms, I was taking a waterfall approach by thinking I'll just lock myself in my room for hours a day and eventually I'll emerge as a guitar virtuoso that will impress everyone. I think it's much better to take an Agile (iterative) approach and have clear goals and benchmarks along the way. So one thought has been that I should tailor my approach to the skills necessary to play gigs, then play some gigs, then tweak as necessary.

I seriously pursued [olympic] weightlifting and powerlifting for about 2 years but never actually competed. I had to give it up when my body and mind got crushed by disruptions related to shift work. The nice thing about the prospect of competition is that it added structure and some external motivation to the activity. At this point, I'm not sure if I would actually compete as I am on the wrong side of 30 with some old injuries. However, lifting weights in general is one of the most important activities that I need to re-engage with, but I just haven't been able to get back in the routine. I ultimately decided to just give myself more time to adjust to my military separation although I think I'm inching towards being psychologically ready for the gym again.

Feeling like something is missing could be part of the human condition, however the freedom and time afforded by early retirement will shine a spotlight on it. There are no more scapegoats or excuses that you can hide behind like the majority of the population does when working full time. Or as @J+G has said, you might find that you are simultaneously the worst worker and the worst boss.

Related to the weight lifting, a question, as I am a noobie: is there an ideal ratio of strength for various exercises? For example, I do push/pull pairs:

bicep curls / tricep extensions
lat pull downs / shoulder presses
dips / upright row
chest presses / dumbell rows

Are there ideal ratios between the pairs? Among the pairs? The question's orientation is for overall strength, stability, non-injury, etc. and not for achieving any sort of physique or winning any sort of competition.

As to other things, it seems to me like you're searching for something, which is great. A therapist can help organize your thoughts and provide structure for tackling difficult thoughts and emotions, so I highly recommend it. It may be that what you're searching for is in an internal skill to apply your strength to be able sit in and stare at your vulnerabilities, rather than any sort of missing external thing. Anyway, for me, it helped to be able to accept my needs and properly address them with eyes properly open rather than trying to anxiously throw shit at the wall hoping something would stick. YMMV, but worth a shot.

suomalainen wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 22, 2025 8:35 pm

is there an ideal ratio of strength for various exercises? For example, I do push/pull pairs:

You didn't ask me, but the answer is no.

Focus on progressing all the lifts to the best of your ability and then assess for glaring weaknesses. Everyone's biomechanics are different, so you might be better at pulling than pushing, etc. If you're just getting into it, enjoy the newbie gains for as long as you can!

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:24 am

So, the question is how can humans who are feeling lonely better take on some of the social-task overflow caused by the relative numerical shortage of Gen X women? I don't know the answer to the question, but as a first attempt for a younger man, I would suggest that the huge difference in economic situations of the current batch of kids who are Gen Alpha (age 12 and under) is a problem that could definitely benefit from young successful men taking on volunteer coaching and mentoring type positions. For example, there was a young man who volunteered to take a group of rowdy kindergarteners out on the playground to do sports twice a week at one of the schools where I taught, and he was beloved by all. My millennial daughter and her husband are strongly engaged in Level Green community, and I absolutely would have set that young man up with one of my daughter's single friends if I had the opportunity, even if he wasn't a perfect fit for the music, arts, re-enactment, and nerdy game type activities her social community seems to constantly engage in.

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 24, 2025 11:05 am

I keep forgetting that according to the super-verifiable science of Evolutionary Psychology, the males of our species retain the semi-conscious desire to hold on to wealth and status well into their 80s, due to innate sexual strategy which holds out hope of one last chance to attract and impregnate a much younger female. Ergo, village or community level altruism is really only innate to the strategy of older human females. Although, it is also the case that males should be more motivated to invest in their later life fertile partners and offspring. Only the rare sort of man who might also be a kind stepfather would be motivated to care for the unrelated young in his community.

I'm pulling these quotes from other threads as they are relevant to my life. As mentioned earlier, volunteering is something I'm looking into. I never really considered volunteer work until recently because my full time career often felt like I was doing much more than my share of "service" for society. However, with my shift to part time work and also the potential for me to someday stop that kind of service, I'm left figuring out how to fill the void in my new community (which also will be the first time I stay in one place for more than 3 years).

I know that volunteer work is often not pursued for altruistic purposes. Parents coach the little league team because their child is on it, not because they want to help the community's children. I have no children and am 95% certain I will never have any, so I'm left figuring out other ways to be a steward for future generations. I'm also a bit lost on figuring out where to start with such a thing as I haven't worked with kids since I was a teenager, and even that was really just leading/mentoring my peers.

The other problem is that I feel a bit frozen by my own analytical side and focus on systems. Is it better for me to help out at the worst elementary school in my district or am I just further enabling the local government to underfund it? Maybe my impact is more valuable in another part of my county that is much more of a warzone where kids get even less support? That could have a larger impact but perhaps won't provide as many benefits to my immediate community. I took a class with incarcerated inmates in college that was illuminating, however it's probably more valuable from a systems perspective to try to save the children before they end up in prison rather than trying to help those who have already had the system fail them. Or maybe it's better for me to do pro-bono IT work since that is valued much more on the free market comparatively? Maybe it would be more valuable to start a novel social media campaign to convince others to get involved in their local community?

Clearly, if we want to address the metacrisis (or is it Metacrisis?), then we are going to have to figure out a way to get the millions of disgruntled young males to feel like a part of their community even if they do not have a connection to it through their direct offspring. The only place where I've ever seen "village or community level altruism" as a strategy for males is in the military. I don't have a lot of experience with level green circles because I believe I was locked out of them due to stereotypical assumptions about my personal/political views based on my military affiliation (both in dating and socializing).

Have you considered sports coaching?

white belt wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 21, 2025 7:17 pm

Feeling like something is missing could be part of the human condition,

It is. We are not made for ourselves. And the only thing that is going to fill that void is for you to coach a little league baseball team.

white belt wrote:Maybe my impact is more valuable in another part of my county that is much more of a warzone where kids get even less support? That could have a larger impact but perhaps won't provide as many benefits to my immediate community.

From a sort of social permaculture perspective, I would say that because you live in a socio-economic system that creates war zone schools, the nearest war zone school is part of your community*, just like the nearest hazardous waste facility is part of your community. I would also recommend working at the nearest war-zone school as a substitute teacher or tutor on a very part-time basis rather than volunteering unless you volunteer within an organized program such as AmeriCorps. These schools are usually desperate for competent support staff and you will be better able to help if you pass the very low bar of becoming certified as a substitute or tutor. Some of these schools are so chaotic and constantly dealing with putting out fires, I don't know if they would know what to do with a volunteer if one showed up. It would be kind of like showing up as a candy-striper at a gritty urban hospital emergency room vs. showing up as a traveling nurse.

Any school is going to need some help, but if you volunteer at a fairly affluent school, it's most likely you will be helping out with some kids that need help, but are not going to benefit all that much from it. You will not make the difference that makes a difference, and it will feel more like a busy-work pink-collar job than working in the war-zone. In the war-zone schools there are many more kids who are slipping through the cracks. For example, today I worked with a 3 year old who lives in a housing project and already has level of cognitive abstraction necessary to learn basic K-1 math, but even though he is in a good program, it is highly unlikely that he will get the one-on-one attention that could allow him to accelerate his learning while his brain is most plastic. If you have the option, I would also recommend a school or school district that has newly arrived immigrant students as well as kids from situations of multi-generational and/or opioid/meth epidemic poverty in the U.S., because a bit of upward-mobile Ellis Island attitude makes for a more varied and cheerful mix. Also, your military training would likely come in very handy in maintaining order with the war-zone kids.

*But it is also quite possible that the worst school in your otherwise affluent community is a war-zone school if there is low income housing or clusters of very inexpensive apartment complexes in your community or if most of the affluent kids opt into private schools. In either case, it will still be likely that some of the staff at the school live in your more affluent nearby community or neighborhood. At the war-zone schools where I have taught, I was sometimes the only college-grad level staff member who actually lived in the district/neighborhood. Basically, just ask yourself where the lowest-paid service workers who work in your community live, and that will likely be your war-zone school neighborhood.

chenda wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 04, 2025 3:25 pm

Have you considered sports coaching?

Henry wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 04, 2025 4:33 pm

It is. We are not made for ourselves. And the only thing that is going to fill that void is for you to coach a little league baseball team.

I've thought about coaching, but the only sport I feel knowledgeable enough to coach at the high school level is mostly played at schools in wealthier areas. I played basketball and football in middle school so I could probably coach those up to that level. I never really played organized baseball and it's probably one of my least favorite sports, so that's out as well.

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 04, 2025 5:37 pm

From a sort of social permaculture perspective, I would say that because you live in a socio-economic system that creates war zone schools, the nearest war zone school is part of your community*, just like the nearest hazardous waste facility is part of your community. I would also recommend working at the nearest war-zone school as a substitute teacher or tutor on a very part-time basis rather than volunteering unless you volunteer within an organized program such as AmeriCorps. These schools are usually desperate for competent support staff and you will be better able to help if you pass the very low bar of becoming certified as a substitute or tutor. Some of these schools are so chaotic and constantly dealing with putting out fires, I don't know if they would know what to do with a volunteer if one showed up. It would be kind of like showing up as a candy-striper at a gritty urban hospital emergency room vs. showing up as a traveling nurse.

Any school is going to need some help, but if you volunteer at a fairly affluent school, it's most likely you will be helping out with some kids that need help, but are not going to benefit all that much from it. You will not make the difference that makes a difference, and it will feel more like a busy-work pink-collar job than working in the war-zone. In the war-zone schools there are many more kids who are slipping through the cracks. For example, today I worked with a 3 year old who lives in a housing project and already has level of cognitive abstraction necessary to learn basic K-1 math, but even though he is in a good program, it is highly unlikely that he will get the one-on-one attention that could allow him to accelerate his learning while his brain is most plastic. If you have the option, I would also recommend a school or school district that has newly arrived immigrant students as well as kids from situations of multi-generational and/or opioid/meth epidemic poverty in the U.S., because a bit of upward-mobile Ellis Island attitude makes for a more varied and cheerful mix. Also, your military training would likely come in very handy in maintaining order with the war-zone kids.

Thank you, this was very helpful. To my surprise, I meet all of the requirements to get an instructional substitute teacher credential for the local "war-zone" district despite having no teaching background (well...there is lot of teaching that happens in the military). I also could qualify as a technical education sub for an IT/computer class given my work experience. I'm unsure what ages or subjects that I would enjoy teaching but I'm assuming that gets figured out a bit during initial orientation/training and on the job. The district pays something like ~$26 an hour so ~$210 for a day pre-tax and advertises high flexibility for scheduling.

I looked into AmeriCorps a bit and am less inclined to go that route given the current federal government volatility and the fact that the programs seem more regimented and less flexible than what I'm looking for. 1-2 days a week is the max I'm willing to commit to something like this at the moment.

white belt wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:22 pm

I've thought about coaching, but the only sport I feel knowledgeable enough to coach at the high school level is mostly played at schools in wealthier areas.

I'll take lacrosse for the win, Alex.

@white belt:

Yay! Your experience may vary if you are being directly hired by the school district, but my experience with subbing through third party agencies is that I have complete flexibility to teach any class at any age level in any school within the districts for which my paperwork such as finger-printing has been submitted and verified. Often this is done at the level of the county. So, for instance, I have subbed at a vocational education center teaching 16 year old students paramedic skills on a Monday, a Head Start Nursery school on Wednesday, and filling in for the art teacher at a middle school on Friday, etc. etc. etc. There is a great deal of variety possible, but maintaining the variety will obviously tend towards running counter to establishing yourself as part of the community at any given school, especially if you are doing it on a very part-time basis. Be sure to be very clear about your boundaries going in, as in "I am ONLY available on Mondays and Fridays, and I may be out-of-town the entire month of May.", because you will almost certainly be almost instantly hard-core recruited to work more often and with less flexible commitment than you would prefer.

I actually had the same thoughts about Americorps myself, but I offered it as an example of a volunteer experience that is structured to the extent that the already-harried staff at the school doesn't have to think about who you are and how/who you will help. I'm sure there are other such organizations, some of which might be local and unique. Other options I have considered would be joining a volunteer group that isn't directly involved with kids, but taking the initiative to expand in that direction. For example, community gardening group could expand to children's garden at elementary school or a robotics or maker group could expand to offering after-school club for kids or an adult sports group could expand to offer coaching to kids, etc. etc. You really don't have to be super-skilled at an activity yourself in order to organize and coach entry-level kids. Even kids who do have some specialized skills or talent already are often lacking general "how the world works' skills that would help them succeed. For example, I absolutely suck at sports, but I know how to sign kids up for a tournament and book a bus for transportation and pack a cooler full of appropriate snacks, etc.

white belt wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 03, 2025 6:31 pm

The other problem is that I feel a bit frozen by my own analytical side and focus on systems. Is it better for me to help out at the worst elementary school in my district or am I just further enabling the local government to underfund it? Maybe my impact is more valuable in another part of my county that is much more of a warzone where kids get even less support? That could have a larger impact but perhaps won't provide as many benefits to my immediate community. I took a class with incarcerated inmates in college that was illuminating, however it's probably more valuable from a systems perspective to try to save the children before they end up in prison rather than trying to help those who have already had the system fail them. Or maybe it's better for me to do pro-bono IT work since that is valued much more on the free market comparatively? Maybe it would be more valuable to start a novel social media campaign to convince others to get involved in their local community?

Clearly, if we want to address the metacrisis (or is it Metacrisis?), then we are going to have to figure out a way to get the millions of disgruntled young males to feel like a part of their community even if they do not have a connection to it through their direct offspring. The only place where I've ever seen "village or community level altruism" as a strategy for males is in the military. I don't have a lot of experience with level green circles because I believe I was locked out of them due to stereotypical assumptions about my personal/political views based on my military affiliation (both in dating and socializing).

I have some experience with Green both in its mature form (Scandinavian) and its juvenile form (American), the difference between the two being that "mature" corresponds to both a majority position in society and a focus on preserving and protecting [existing Green] institutions, whereas "juvenile" corresponds to a minority position in society and a focus on change and bringing these values into a society that largely doesn't have them. That said, my perspective is just mine and influenced by me having a mostly incompatible personality when it comes to Green.

One thing that sent up warning flags for me in your first paragraph was your analytical focus on where you could be most effective. Bringing that framework along into a "green circle", I think, will frustrate you to no end, because it is not a value that Green appreciates nor really understands. It would be seen as cold or reductive. Green is more about caring and people feeling good about themselves and others. Inclusiveness is more important than doing a good job. Kicking someone out of the team because they actually do more harm to the result than good is anathema. Choosing a solution that the majority agrees on is more important (unquestionably so to Green) than choosing the correct solution. The "no responsibility without authority" is frequently bantered about on the forum. This is not really a concept that computes with Green. With green, the individual is sacrificed to the group and the group authority with responsibility being diffused to the group. The most compatible framework for Green is a focus on "being member of ..." and "caring [about human feelings]".

As to the second paragraph, "the millions of disgruntled young men" is mainly a North American phenomenon. Typically something like sports or the military takes juvenile Kegan2 (which in their adult form would otherwise be selfish sociopaths) and teaches them two things: 1) That rules and discipline are valuable ideas as opposed to "I do what I want"; and 2) That playing for the team (instead of selfish interests) can be rewarding. This is where you get all the Jordan Peterson stuff like "clean your room" or "stand up straight" coated in pseudo-scientific tales about lobsters... but basically comes down to respecting self and respecting others (in the earned, not given form of respect). Normally, a functional culture would have that job handled by parents but in lieu of that when parents are too busy to parent, the kids look to each other (Lord of the flies) or MMA influencer gurus on youtube and that spells disaster. In terms of solving that, coaching, boy scouts, ... would focus on the problem directly by providing some responsible rules and team organization.

It might be helpful to see what it looks like when rules and "playing" for the team are taught at home to almost everybody and generally expected as a baseline outside of home leaving only 5% of a random selection of kids to be potential troublemakers. In that case, boys and girls would focus on things like homework and grades. Other foci would be possible too. This would work insofar the parents themselves believed such things to important enough that they do them themselves.

Fixing cultural problems does in my opinion not relate directly to the metacrisis. As I understand the metacrisis, the problem is that people don't know where and how everything fits together. As such they still apply "one solution fits all", or worse, become "solutions looking for problems". This is something Green is very guilty of but so are all the other Tier1 value systems.

You noted that you tend to get rejected by Green circle people because of your Red/Blue military vibes. Something that Tier2 would value greatly would be to figure out a method to bridge that gap. It's pretty easy to get included in a Green circle on the basis of having a warm body and breathing oxygen. It's a lot harder to be valued for e.g. your ability to reason, to command, or to get things done. These behaviors are incompatible with how Green perceives the world. To give an example, I know how to "reason" with purple. It's NOT by developing a nice logical argument that even superstitious purple can understand. No, the tactic is to become part of Purple's family or clan at which point anything you say will become part of their dogma; not because what you say but because of who you are. This has implications if you e.g. want to focus on public health care.

I would note that in my experience, war-zone schools are a place where humans functioning well at Red/Blue are appreciated, because the school population is going to be more towards Purple/Red. OTOH, there will also likely be staff members on hand who are functioning from Blue up to Green/Yellow, and this will also apply to some extent to the parent and support personal groups in a recent immigration or more generally mixed urban zone. So, it's not a bad scene/fit for a Level Yellowish Generalist, no matter whatever colors seem most obvious in your Yellow mix. OTOH, my brief experience teaching in a far northern car-dependent-suburban Level Blue/Blue/Orange lower-middle-middle-class, median IQ with little variation zone was deadly boring and kind of oddly alienating. KInd of like teaching art in the land of the color blind.

Based only on my viewing of a school-based sit-com series "Rita?" based in Level Green realm close to Jacob's native realm, he is reflecting a lot of the problems that only occur at Level Green when it has already had to accommodate all the median IQ humans who are mostly currently Level Blue/Orange in the U.S. IOW, the problems encountered in Level Green realm schools in Denmark are laughable compared to those found in war-zone schools in the U.S., so much more of a dull-bureaucratic haze is likely. IOW, they seem to be at the level of problems in the bedroom suburban districts just outside of a University center, where the kids order their personalized lunch salads on their lap-tops, learn Chinese, and go to yoga group after school. Working in a war-zone school is more like working in an inner city emergency room, a refugee camp, or literally a war-zone. It's sadly difficult to describe how much worse some public schools are than others in the U.S. I have taught at some which I wouldn't leave my own grandchild at for 5 minutes. I challenge Jacob to teach for a week at a low-scoring school on the south side of Chicago.

Henry wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 04, 2025 4:33 pm

It is. We are not made for ourselves. And the only thing that is going to fill that void is for you to coach a little league baseball team.

It's either this, or hookers and blow. I guess mountaintop meditation retreats might work. But I notice my main man Siddhartha did the hookers and blow *before* all the meditation and Buddhism happened.

Okay, once again, but this time seriously: What is it you hope to gain by the volunteering activities? I am happy to hear you executing on the volunteering aspect. Fantastic. Filling an introspective hole is likely beyond the activity, however. Momentary dopamine spikes it'll do, but I doubt life meaning is coming from an inner city school or a ball team. You have to make meaning yourself. Scary ledge, I know.

white belt wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 03, 2025 6:31 pm

The other problem is that I feel a bit frozen by my own analytical side and focus on systems. Is it better for me to help out at the worst elementary school in my district or am I just further enabling the local government to underfund it?

Maybe a brief look at altruism is in order. So an 80 year old man looking for a young mate isn't selfless in his altruism? I agree. I'd make the point that the elderly woman is ALSO not so selfless. She's gaining attention, favors for her kin, etc. Most altruism has instrumental motives. Probably all altruism. This is fine. When it comes to making the world better, I do NOT look a gift horse in the mouth. The point is, what's your motive? Is it realistic in expectation? If it isn't, you set yourself up for frustration and heartbreak.

I would second the motion for therapy, assuming you think it could do any of the following things for you:
1)Organize your thoughts in a way that settles negative emotion.
2)Helps discover meaning.
3)Organizes your goal structure.

There's always the old fashioned option of embracing stoicism, from which I'll borrow the control test now. I wouldn't worry so much about systemic effects. I would encourage you to focus on the individual level and whether you control something. Do you control the school funding? Absolutely not. Do you control what you do to help individuals? Absolutely. Practice virtue, according to YOUR definition, and let the rest take care of itself.

Scordatura wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 06, 2025 8:08 pm

It's either this, or hookers and blow. I guess mountaintop meditation retreats might work. But I notice my main man Siddhartha did the hookers and blow *before* all the meditation and Buddhism happened.

That is the generally recommended order of operations for such things. I wouldn't stray too far from the wisdom of the ancients.

frugaldoc wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 06, 2025 8:46 pm

That is the generally recommended order of operations for such things. I wouldn't stray too far from the wisdom of the ancients.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 05, 2025 10:09 am

I actually had the same thoughts about Americorps myself, but I offered it as an example of a volunteer experience that is structured to the extent that the already-harried staff at the school doesn't have to think about who you are and how/who you will help. I'm sure there are other such organizations, some of which might be local and unique. Other options I have considered would be joining a volunteer group that isn't directly involved with kids, but taking the initiative to expand in that direction. For example, community gardening group could expand to children's garden at elementary school or a robotics or maker group could expand to offering after-school club for kids or an adult sports group could expand to offer coaching to kids, etc. etc.

I don't think Americorps is my cup of tea, but something like Big Brothers Big Sisters might be a good first step. My impression is that mentoring a child/teen one on one is an easier transition to this sort of work compared to being thrown in the fire as a substitute teacher. It's less of a weekly time commitment but more of a long term time commitment as I think they want at least a year of mentorship. Realistically, I'm not going to pursue this for at least another month or two until after I am settled into the new house, and by that point it's unlikely I could get through the gates to work as a substitute before schools are out on summer break. Your idea about expanding a community garden effort is something that I could see myself building towards someday.

Scordatura wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 06, 2025 8:08 pm

Okay, once again, but this time seriously: What is it you hope to gain by the volunteering activities? I am happy to hear you executing on the volunteering aspect. Fantastic. Filling an introspective hole is likely beyond the activity, however. Momentary dopamine spikes it'll do, but I doubt life meaning is coming from an inner city school or a ball team. You have to make meaning yourself. Scary ledge, I know.
[...]
There's always the old fashioned option of embracing stoicism, from which I'll borrow the control test now. I wouldn't worry so much about systemic effects. I would encourage you to focus on the individual level and whether you control something. Do you control the school funding? Absolutely not. Do you control what you do to help individuals? Absolutely. Practice virtue, according to YOUR definition, and let the rest take care of itself.

The military has instilled a sense of service, ownership, and accountability that is now deeply ingrained in me. I was never someone that really cared about others or the world around me, however I am now unable to put the blinders on when I see problems in my sphere of influence. Jocko Willink uses the term "extreme ownership" when discussing leadership and I find it difficult to not try to lead/set a positive example with my everyday actions. This is compounded by the fact that I now own a house for the first time in my life and feel urge to put down roots in the community for at least the next 6-7 years. I recognize that I need to tread carefully here because risk of burnout is high when responsibility doesn't match authority. My definition of "volunteering" is quite wide and could include paid work or other things beyond that improve my community (I am working on clarifying this vagueness).

For example, I walked by 3 street trees in my new neighborhood that are overgrown with ivy. At my last apartment I probably would've ignored them, but now I feel like I have a duty to do something about it. I could take 10 minutes and make a few cuts to the ivy myself like I did with some trees in my backyard, but I knew that would probably run afoul of the local government who is responsible to maintain the trees. So I took some pictures and sent an email, which resulted in both an email response with work orders from a government official and a phone call from a street tree advisory board member thanking me. That alone probably will save my community thousands of dollars compared to the costs of removing 3 dead trees and planting new ones, not to mention the ecological benefits.

How does one differentiate between control and influence? Do I have control over xyz local political issue? No. Do I have influence over it? Probably if I wanted to, given my experience with leadership and getting things done. Then again maybe not since town forums are usually more about the group than getting anything done (see below for expansion on @Jacob's concerns about me in SD Green environments). I think stoicism is a cool individual strategy in many situations (especially short term for embracing uncertainty and/or the suck), but over the long term I wonder how it is any different than a way to justify inaction or burying one's head in the sand?

I will quote from another thread below which is similar to the perspective I have, although I arrived at it from the red/blue world of the military:

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 08, 2025 7:22 am

I was struck by Strack's note that approximately 1/3 of footprint is completely under individual control, 1/3 under joint individual/government (larger social body) control, and 1/3 completely under government (larger social body) control. In the same way that AxelHeyst described Nate being savvy yet somewhat surprised due to ERE shaped blind-spot, I think we here at ERE are somewhat blinded to the necessity and efficiency of community level solutions and/or the government level maintained infrastructure that supports our individualistic/minimalistic solutions. I mean, yeah, storing your collection of books at the Public Library is a great idea until the library is shut down due to lack of funding. That's why I believe, for purely pragmatic medium-term reasons, that if you have reduced your income/spending to the level that you are no longer paying taxes, you should be engaging in some level of community work. If you are a volunteer with the Friends of the Library as well as a frequent patron, then you will be in place to contribute to a solution to the library closure due to lack of funding, etc. etc. etc. Even just doing things like being one of the few citizens regularly showing up to meetings of your local water board would go a long way towards integrating and expanding the potential for reducing footprint or retaining/improving quality of life at the 1/3 Venn diagram overlap of functions that are under joint individual/larger social body control.

jacob wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 05, 2025 11:07 am

One thing that sent up warning flags for me in your first paragraph was your analytical focus on where you could be most effective. Bringing that framework along into a "green circle", I think, will frustrate you to no end, because it is not a value that Green appreciates nor really understands. It would be seen as cold or reductive. Green is more about caring and people feeling good about themselves and others. Inclusiveness is more important than doing a good job. Kicking someone out of the team because they actually do more harm to the result than good is anathema. Choosing a solution that the majority agrees on is more important (unquestionably so to Green) than choosing the correct solution. The "no responsibility without authority" is frequently bantered about on the forum. This is not really a concept that computes with Green. With green, the individual is sacrificed to the group and the group authority with responsibility being diffused to the group. The most compatible framework for Green is a focus on "being member of ..." and "caring [about human feelings]".
[...]
You noted that you tend to get rejected by Green circle people because of your Red/Blue military vibes. Something that Tier2 would value greatly would be to figure out a method to bridge that gap. It's pretty easy to get included in a Green circle on the basis of having a warm body and breathing oxygen. It's a lot harder to be valued for e.g. your ability to reason, to command, or to get things done. These behaviors are incompatible with how Green perceives the world. To give an example, I know how to "reason" with purple. It's NOT by developing a nice logical argument that even superstitious purple can understand. No, the tactic is to become part of Purple's family or clan at which point anything you say will become part of their dogma; not because what you say but because of who you are. This has implications if you e.g. want to focus on public health care.

Yeah I am wary of trying to do much of anything that could be construed as assertive before I have established myself as a member of the group (maybe that perspective is still too red/blue). I am most comfortable in organizations where competence is valued so I really have to tone it down if I'm in a Green environment. Having said that, I guess I envision myself as able to provide help on specific projects/problems, but I know that I don't really have the patience to deal with the misinformation, hand holding, navel gazing, cognitive dissonance, etc that I have witnessed in several video recordings of community forums already. I will reserve final judgement until I attend one in person.

If I believe in a cause/mission, then I will do anything in my power to make it succeed. However, I also understand that the real world is not like the pyramid top-down structure of the military with clear intent provided at every level all the way down. In military terms, I care about winning the war, even if that may require making people uncomfortable or pissing people off in the short term. Obviously, I have a lot of work to do to figure out how I can translate that to the world outside the military. I'm also very aware that Junger writes in Tribe about the need for different types of leaders in wartime and peacetime, so maybe that approach doesn't even translate to the "civilized" world.

In my experience, the initial role for leadership in a volunteer Level Green environment is moving the community foci from the problem(s) to something like a clear mission statement. Then the mission statement becomes that which represents the top of the hierarchy rather than any given human. Any actions or projects in alignment with the mission statement, whether individual, whole group, sub-group, or in conjunction with other groups, are then pointed towards this North Star. Most Level Green groups are going to immediately bristle at anybody overtly taking charge and issuing assignments in Top Down Military or even Project Manager style. It's more about nudging focus back towards mission statement.

white belt wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 11, 2025 4:29 pm

The military has instilled a sense of service, ownership, and accountability that is now deeply ingrained in me. I was never someone that really cared about others or the world around me, however I am now unable to put the blinders on when I see problems in my sphere of influence. Jocko Willink uses the term "extreme ownership" when discussing leadership and I find it difficult to not try to lead/set a positive example with my everyday actions. This is compounded by the fact that I now own a house for the first time in my life and feel urge to put down roots in the community for at least the next 6-7 years. I recognize that I need to tread carefully here because risk of burnout is high when responsibility doesn't match authority. My definition of "volunteering" is quite wide and could include paid work or other things beyond that improve my community (I am working on clarifying this vagueness).

[...]

How does one differentiate between control and influence? Do I have control over xyz local political issue? No. Do I have influence over it? Probably if I wanted to, given my experience with leadership and getting things done. Then again maybe not since town forums are usually more about the group than getting anything done (see below for expansion on @Jacob's concerns about me in SD Green environments). I think stoicism is a cool individual strategy in many situations (especially short term for embracing uncertainty and/or the suck), but over the long term I wonder how it is any different than a way to justify inaction or burying one's head in the sand?

I will quote from another thread below which is similar to the perspective I have, although I arrived at it from the red/blue world of the military:

If the tool doesn't work for you, then don't use it. I got the impression of a man searching for meaning and using inefficient methods of attaining it. My impression may very well have been wrong. I don't have mind reading as an ability.

I'm trying to help, and if it doesn't do it for you, no worries. I don't intend to become the forum's stoic missionary. It's just such a useful tool for me, that I can't help but recommend it when people are at crossroads (major or minor). I hardly talk about stoicism in my own journal, simply because it's thoroughly internalized. But then I see someone with a philosophical stump to grind, and I have the stoic brand stump grinder. I'd be remiss if I didn't at least mention it. You can always use a different brand value system to achieve your goals.

As far as control versus influence, what do *I* personally do? I focus almost entirely on what I control. My thought patterns and my actions. Things I influence I treat as die rolls. I do the control element of the thing, and try to be unattached to the outcome. Anything else is a lot of inefficient mental movements, even if the goal is communitarian in nature.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I don't think you've given actual stoics a fair shake. Sure, there's a theme of individualism, but I don't see concrete examples of heads being buried in the sand. I see the opposite. Very much a civic minded creed. Marcus Aurelius focused on public good while ruling. Epictetus adopted an unrelated child in his old age. Perhaps you are reacting to internet personalities with products to sell?

I had reservations to the same lines as Jacob. It's why I mentioned the control test to begin with. High order effects are very hard to truly predict. Humility in the face of the future is a wise thing. My thinking is that the higher order thinking is meant to align your actions, not paralyze your decision making. I'm ALSO heavily influenced by Jocko, but if you listen to him speak on his podcast, he's VERY nuanced on what he owns and doesn't own. By all means take ownership of a large swath of things, I approve.

On the volunteer topic, have you checked into the low level medical field? I know hospitals use volunteers for guides and things. I personally call my CNA gig "paid charity work". Nursing homes are constantly in need of help. I don't know if it would suit your personality, but it certainly builds character.

I feel like I’m making some progress on the seemingly endless to-do list in relation to moving/home ownership. Not enough to feel ready to map out a web of goals here, but progress nevertheless.

Whenever people ask what I do with my time, I say I spend a lot of time working on my house. People often think it’s a fixer upper, but that’s not entirely true. We outsourced the kitchen renovation at significant expense because we didn’t feel confident in our design abilities or that we had the time/skill to pull off such a thing. And that’s 99% complete. Of course, that was factored in to our purchase price and I expect us to get most of the money back whenever we sell.

We are definitely still adjusting to DW working so much. I do wonder how people sustain relationships when working 80+ hour weeks for 5+ years. I think I feel it more acutely since I don’t have a full time job anymore. Luckily the new house has shortened her commute significantly.

Things feel like they move very slowly. I still have trouble getting started on the projects that need to be done, although I do feel like I’m building some momentum. I did see a therapist who recommend that we work through a program that was designed to help veterans who have recently transitioned to civilian life. It sounded promising and my therapist recommended we meet once a week or once every other week. I then checked out with the receptionist to find out that the next available appointment wasn’t until 2 months later, after I already waited 3 months to get the initial appointment. DW thinks I should just pay out of pocket for a different therapist that insurance won’t cover at this point.

It’s possible that I am too focused on the disorder of my house because it’s easier to fix that than any of my psychological problems. However, I can’t deny that I do feel incrementally better and more relaxed the more I get my house in order. The rooms are furnished and usable. I have a desk with a workstation setup (still need to do cable management). Already having a desk, a bed frame, some organization, etc makes my life feel much more manageable. The 500 sqft apartment we lived in for a year was too small for us and I never really felt settled in. This was compounded by the fact that we started house hunting after only living in the apartment for ~5 months. The longest I’ve lived in a place since college was 3 years and we plan on being in this house for at least 5 more years.

I am enjoying the autonomy and control that owning a home provides. I’ve never lived somewhere where I could see something I don’t like and have the authority to change it. Making updates/upgrades to the home does make it feel better to us, but I do wonder if that feeling will fade due to hedonic adaptation. DW and I both love the house in part because it feels like a mansion compared to the small city apartment in a bad neighborhood that we moved from, however how will we feel once the honeymoon phase is over and we have lived here for a few years?

In a way, home upgrades are just another form of consumption, even if many of them can be completed DIY at relatively low financial cost. I could easily make the argument that very few of the changes we have made to the house are FUNCTIONAL improvements. We could have kept the original kitchen which had working appliances, cabinetry, and countertop space. The layout was functionally irritating and aesthetically ugly, but not unusable. Instead, we [paid to] knock down a wall, cover up a door, get wraparound cabinets/countertops, new lighting, larger windows, and replace all the appliances. The feel of the space is dramatically improved, which is something that everyone experiences in the space (to include us each day).

When I talk with others about home improvement, I often hear that the projects never end. I can understand that perspective, but I don’t think I’m someone that enjoys the indoor projects enough to classify them as a hobby. I see them as a clear means to an end; the frequency of such projects should wind down significantly once I am complete with the initial backlog of deferred maintenance. For example, I don’t anticipate having to run Romex for electric outlets or fixtures again after I replace what’s remaining of the original 1940s era cloth wiring (still debating whether I want to do this myself and risk mistakes vs paying $$$ for an electrician to do it). Ditto installing ceiling fans.

I do get a bit more enjoyment out of the outdoor/gardening projects, so I could see myself doing that as a hobby. I’ve had an interest in permaculture for a while and look forward to being able to tinker with some of those ideas, even if I have only had time to do minimum landscaping maintenance and updates so far. Once I’m finished with the essential projects then I will work on the “production” projects like raised garden beds, water harvesting, etc.

One thing that I didn’t entirely expect is that I get satisfaction out of having others enjoy our space with us. I’ve never really lived somewhere that had space to host people for weekends visiting or for large gatherings. I’ve also never really lived anywhere that I put effort into the aesthetic appeal/design of space for anything other than functionality. I’m sure a part of it is some sort of social or societal validation that I am “successful” in some way. Most people don’t really grok the purpose of a high savings rate so I can retire in my 30s, but people do grok owning a home that looks/feels nice. People grok a landscape that looks pleasing.

I think for most of my life I just thought that my physical environment had little effect on me, especially in my line of work that included austere conditions and thus becoming numb/blocked in order to execute the required job. However, now I feel much more sensitive to these things. I can’t tell if this is a result of me getting older, or also another result of semi-retirement where I have more time to experience my environment rather than just blocking everything else out to focus on my job. In some ways I again wonder about hedonic adaptation and/or whether being able to thrive in a variety of environments is a use it or lose it skill that one shouldn’t let atrophy. I do know that the concrete urban jungle was a bad environment for DW and I at this juncture in our lives. The quiet streetcar suburb, similar to the one I grew up in, is much more fitting. It’s perhaps not a coincidence that I find this environment comforting at a time when I have experienced significant changes over the past year.

I do wonder at what point I am just using home improvement as replacement for other forms of consumption. I spent a few dollars and minutes to replace the light switch in my room with a rocker switch. Likely no one in the world other than DW and I will ever notice such a thing or give it a second thought (except perhaps when we sell the house). The old switch was functionally adequate but now is in a landfill. Nevertheless, I touch and look at the new switch every day and it feels better to me. Where do I draw the line at things that look/feel better only to me? Why not replace all of xyz in the house if it will look better or make me feel better? Am I now doomed to feel slightly dissatisfied in every space that I have to touch an old-style light switch?

I’m also aware that, even as pleasant as my living situation currently is, the ecological footprint is likely more than living in a smaller space. DW and I live in a 1200 sqft “starter home” with 2 cats. We each have our own sizable bedrooms and have a separate large guest bedroom/office. We have an enormous unfinished basement and a garage. It feels good to have optionality and control instead of paring everything down in the name of absolute efficiency. If we have guests over, they can stay in their own bedroom separate from us. We have a sizable backyard for gardening and outdoor parties. This means we are more likely to have friends/family visit which improves our social capital and our quality of life. DW and I can be working on our own projects on completely separate floors, when before we couldn’t even be more than 10-20 ft away from each other at any time in our apartment.