Low cost living and quality of life/safety issues

[SimpleLife]

LOL, I live about as far away from the southern border as you can get. Moving is certainly an option, but as I noted before, it seems to be happening more and more places. I see people in Oklahoma, North Dakota, etc. complaining about it. It's a generational thing really; todays youths have no respect and seem to be just downright noisy and trashy. Thirty something males tend to be more docile regardless of their cultural background. In any case, when you live this far north, where can you go to get away from the general cesspool society seems to be becoming? Beverly Hills?

In any case, the original concern was about ghetto neighborhoods/cost reduction for ER/quality of life. The ghettos a block away from me are actually equal parts white, black, and hispanic. Heck, I've looked at some neighborhoods where the rednecks were the biggest thug wanna be trailer trash you'd ever seen. I don't know about Aberdeen, WA, but for some reason biker gangs just don't scare me. They seem to mess with each other more than general people, well, except for pedophiles, they just can't stand them.

I have a couple of close Mexican friends, one of whom I am pretty sure is actually illegal based on comments he's made, but he was brought here as a child by his parents. You'd hardly know he was Mexican if talking to him on the phone. He is actually a good enough friend that I marched with him at his request for immigrant rights years ago. Man I hope he isn't involved in some of the stuff going on today, I'd really kick myself for supporting him back then if he is.

At the end of the day though, I think you get what you pay for most of the time, and as the middle class keeps shrinking, more pockets of ghetto will be developing. Time to move to the country!

[JamesR]

Why so negative? "cesspool society seems to be becoming" ? In reality it's probably the opposite - i.e. crime is down, morality is up, more secular, more educated, etc etc.

[Spartan_Warrior]

They work for what they have and are willing to work hard to get more (qualities that are disappearing from the established middle class and which is why the middle class is disappearing).

Not to derail, but you don't seriously believe this is the case? That's the kind of victim-blaming I'd expect from some CEO's op-ed in the WSJ. Not everyone can be an investment banker, and no one gets to the middle class competing with China (or, yes, illegals) for ever decreasing wages in service sector jobs... I won't touch the contentious rising cost of living argument again but there's that too. I'd say these factors, with a dash of poor financial education and a culture of consumerism, have a lot more to do with the decline of the middle-class than the hollow platitude that we're all just too lazy and entitled to work hard.

Also disagree that illegal immigration is a totally victimless crime. I'm frankly a little surprised to see that argument from you as well given you actually jumped through the legal hoops, which I'm sure was not free in terms of, at least, hassle and effort. These hard-working illegals slip in for nothing, and yeah, at their most innocuous, they steal low paying jobs from legal Americans who demand at least minimum wage. At their worst, they do commit identity theft, murder, kidnapping, human and drug trafficking, etc, maybe not even in greater proportions than society at large, but by virtue of being (essentially) untraceable rogue agents they become that much more of a threat.

As for the rest of the thread, FFJ summed up my thoughts nicely: "Crazy good deals exist for a reason; it's up to you to decide if it's lucrative to leverage the positives against the negatives." It's also up to you to figure out the positives and negatives, which I agree is very local. The more you generalize or stereotype, the more convenient your decision will be, but you might be leaving money on the table. I think it would be too much work to try to find those habitable pockets in a ghetto, so I chose to simply move to the outskirts of my lovely Baltimore city rather than bother.

[Ego]

These hard-working illegals slip in for nothing, and yeah, at their most innocuous, they steal low paying jobs from legal Americans who demand at least minimum wage.

http://youtu.be/nW20EMJr6o4?t=47s

[IlliniDave]

I'll leave the immigration issue alone except to say I hope there is some reasonably robust legal immigration in the future. I need somebody out there working to fund the SS I've paid a lot of money for. SSA certainly did not take care of my money for me.

Regarding the original subject, I think anytime you're looking for low cost of living options in high cost of living areas you're going to run into these issues. Probably the best solution is to find a situation where you have a bunch of roommates that share expenses in "low middle class" sections. To many (like me) that sort of communal arrangementn can be a pretty unpleasant way to live over significant periods of time. The other option is to seek low cost of living in low cost of living areas. It may be more difficult to get premium wages in such areas, but it may be possible to do better net of cost of living.

[Dragline]

I'll leave the immigration issue alone except to say I hope there is some reasonably robust legal immigration in the future. I need somebody out there working to fund the SS I've paid a lot of money for. SSA certainly did not take care of my money for me.

This is a very interesting subject as it pertains to the consequences of global aging. There is a great book about this that is well worth reading:

http://books.simonandschuster.com/Shock ... 1416551034

The book actually analyzes many different countries (US, Spain, Japan, and a few more) and the consequences of importing or not importing people where the population is aging and the workforce is shrinking.

[JamesR]

These hard-working illegals slip in for nothing, and yeah, at their most innocuous, they steal low paying jobs from legal Americans who demand at least minimum wage.

Illegal immigrants is probably a net plus to the american economy, and the notion that they're stealing jobs is probably not really true. It sounds like an oversimplification, and it's probably a good idea to look past that and see what else is going on economically.

[Spartan_Warrior]

@Ego: Love Doug Stanhope. I didn't say that illegals are taking skilled positions, mind you. They're taking entry-level or lower positions, but IMO that still has an impact on an already ailing economy. As an example, I know someone who works for a screen printer where the warehouse staff is largely adult, Hispanic, and ESL. Now, I have no idea what/how they're being paid or what their legal status is, but the fact remains this is the kind of job that formerly would have given a high school kid or other young, unskilled worker something to do over the summer or a foot in the door of an industry. Incidentally, joblessness under 25 is at an all time high.

Is this a serious problem in a sea of other problems? We could debate that (perhaps in another thread), but I stand by what I said--illegal immigration is not fair and it is not a victimless crime. At a minimum the victims are the schmucks who jumped through the hoops to do it legally while the scofflaws help themselves.

[Spartan_Warrior]

I know this might be a dark and cynical way of looking at it, but don't you think the fact that illegal immigrants are willing to be treated so poorly in terms of pay/benefits/working conditions makes it that much harder for legal Americans to compete with them?

Maybe some of the jobs they're taking are jobs Americans "won't do". It's probably true that most of them are jobs American won't do for the price/benefits illegals will do them. Is accelerating a race to the bottom in working conditions a good thing?

I'm not saying all this happens in a vacuum, that there are no benefits to immigration (legal or otherwise), etc. I certainly never said immigrants don't add anything to the US; that's a strawman. All I said was that illegal immigration is not fair or victimless.

[Papers of Indenture]

If you're looking for the "other" to fear....may I suggest Robots rather than Hispanics?

Automation is going to take away more jobs from all of us red, white, and blue blooded grandsons and granddaughters of former dirty Mick/WOP/Pollock immigrants than Jose and Carlos ever will.

[Scott 2]

What's low cost?

I found 1 bedroom apartments in nice Chicago suburbs affordable - 700 to 800 a month, split with my now wife. in retrospect, while single, I could have rented a room in the same areas for much less.

Owning a home for so little would be much harder in this area. But there are condos....

[JamesR]

Spartan, who's the victim? Probably both sides. Nationalism & borders probably don't help, too easy for the whole us vs they cognitive bias to come up and muddy the waters.

Scott 2, I'm somewhat under the impression that condos can be bad investments, due to being hard to sell, and having large monthly maintenance fees. (Also gotta watch out for noise factor).

[21stCenturyKid]

Illegal immigrants is probably a net plus to the american economy, and the notion that they're stealing jobs is probably not really true. It sounds like an oversimplification, and it's probably a good idea to look past that and see what else is going on economically.

You're right about it being a plus. They pay taxes just like the rest of us! Sure they may not pay income taxes but many low income people in our country don't...because they make such a small amount of money that the government lets them keep it! And the ones who are using identity theft to secure jobs *are* paying into Social Security and all that.

Funny type of identity theft...using someone elses info to get a job and do some work instead of using it for evil

[Scott 2]

Buying a new condo is probably a terrible investment.

Getting someone else out of their terrible investment in a condo? There you'll probably pay market value.

I prefer to be the "poor" person in an area. Even affluent suburbs have pockets of low cost housing, typically occupied by divorcees and recent graduates. The landlords have the ability to be selective and living conditions are good, in my experience.

One of my $700 a month apartments was a couple blocks from multi-million dollar homes. The only trade off was living across the street from a commuter train station, with passenger trains going through twice an hour from 6am to 11pm or so.

[Alcibar]

Regarding unlimited low skill immigration - remember there are limited seats on the gravy train.

[tylerrr]

I dread what our nation has become over the last 20 years, especially more recently with unchecked illegals with who knows what kind of criminal records coming here in droves.

Over the last 20 years, crime has actually decreased. It hasn't been getting worse as you suggest.

Significantly decreasing...

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wys ... ecline.jpg

My family (uncles and aunts, not immediate) are always amazed I live in cities (mostly Pittsburgh and DC (Arlington)). I grew up in a small town. They always ask, "do you feel safe?" Seriously? I live in, by some measures, the richest county in the country. Other police departments in the area make fun of the Arlington police because they basically break up bar fights and escort drunk 21 year olds home. It's safer than my small town hometown, but they have no idea.

this post is misleading....

I've lived in big cities for the last 20 years, S.F., LA, Miami, and now Boston. In the inner big cities you are always near ghettos full of criminals. Please don't act like big cities in the USA are some kind of multicultural utopia.

They are full of crime and less than desirable neighbors. I know, I've lived it. I look forward to moving out of the big cities in about another year where everyone speaks English and you don't have to worry about locking your car door.

I know Obama would like America to think his former Chicago streets are just "misunderstood" and those bullets flying into kids' bodies every day are just a "misrepresentation of the media" , but anyone with a brain doesn't want to live near a ghetto and criminals. We like our safe neighborhoods even if they're homogenous. Thanks.

I don't aim to be politically correct.

[tylerrr]

What I meant was that illegal immigration is a victimless crime.

Wow...I couldn't disagree more. Illegal immigration is one of the main reasons the USA is permanently changing into a future 3rd world toilet bowl.

Hospitals being stretched to their limits, welfare and food stamps skyrocketing in the last few years....I would say all Americans are victims of this corrupt Federal Government, which purposely allows illegal immigration.

[Dragline]

What I meant was that illegal immigration is a victimless crime.

Wow...I couldn't disagree more. Illegal immigration is one of the main reasons the USA is permanently changing into a future 3rd world toilet bowl.

Whoa, sounds like you need to move out pronto if you really believe what you are saying. I would not want to live in such an environment.

I'm betting you'll stay because you really don't believe that kind of cut-and-paste internet forum hype.

But this thread is beginning to sound like a scene from Gangs of New York. Remember when all those filthy Irish Catholic people showed up and turned America into a toilet bowl with their strange language, lack of skills and Roman Popery? Oh, wait, I guess it didn't work out quite the way the Know-Nothings predicted.

Past is prologue, my friend. Get over it.

[workathome]

Whoa, sounds like you need to move out pronto if you really believe what you are saying. I would not want to live in such an environment.

I'm betting you'll stay because you really don't believe that kind of cut-and-paste internet forum hype.

But this thread is beginning to sound like a scene from Gangs of New York. Remember when all those filthy Irish Catholic people showed up and turned America into a toilet bowl with their strange language, lack of skills and Roman Popery? Oh, wait, I guess it didn't work out quite the way the Know-Nothings predicted.

Past is prologue, my friend. Get over it.

Your historical view is limited and out of context.

Average IQ for Mexico is 86.5, while Ireland is 100. While the Irish were culturally different, the IQ disparity with Mexico is a lot more dramatic, plus greater genetic differences. It will have a more dramatic long-term impact on the US than Irish immigration ever did.

[jennypenny]

But this thread is beginning to sound like a scene from Gangs of New York. Remember when all those filthy Irish Catholic people showed up and turned America into a toilet bowl with their strange language, lack of skills and Roman Popery?

Hey, 'tis me kin yer speakin' of.

@WAH--I love my family, but I can promise you they didn't come to America because they were admitted to a PhD program.