Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
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leeholsen
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by leeholsen »

Please, please; if you have a gas powered or coal powered engine; start it up; it's going to freeze in Texas tonight (in mid april) and get into the 30s in my city of Houston ! i need more global warming ! ;) :D

URGENT – WINTER WEATHER MESSAGE
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE AMARILLO TX … 750 PM CDT SUN APR 13 2014

CIMARRON-TEXAS-BEAVER-DALLAM-SHERMAN-HANSFORD-OCHILTREE-HARTLEY-
INCLUDING THE CITIES OF… BOISE CITY… KEYES… GUYMON… BEAVER… FORGAN… DALHART… STRATFORD… SPEARMAN… GRUVER… PERRYTON… HARTLEY… CHANNING

…WINTER WEATHER ADVISORY REMAINS IN EFFECT UNTIL 10 AM CDT MONDAY…

A WINTER WEATHER ADVISORY FOR SNOW…BLOWING SNOW…AND STRONG WINDS REMAINS IN EFFECT UNTIL 10 AM CDT MONDAY.

* EVENT…LIGHT SNOW WITH ACCUMULATIONS OF 1 TO 2 INCHES ACROSS THE OKLAHOMA PANHANDLE AND ALSO THE FAR NORTHERN TEXAS PANHANDLE.
STRONG WINDS OF 25 TO 35 MPH WITH HIGHER GUSTS WILL CAUSE BLOWING SNOW…REDUCING VISIBILITIES TO AROUND ONE MILE OR LESS AT TIMES IN LOCALIZED AREAS.

* TIMING…SNOW WILL BEGIN TO DEVELOP SUNDAY EVENING AND BECOME HEAVIEST AROUND OR JUST AFTER MIDNIGHT BEFORE EXITING AROUND SUNRISE MONDAY.

* IMPACTS…ROADS MAY BECOME SNOW PACKED AND ICY. AREAS OF BLOWING SNOW MAY RESULT IN REDUCED VISIBILITIES.

PRECAUTIONARY/PREPAREDNESS ACTIONS…

A WINTER WEATHER ADVISORY MEANS THAT PERIODS OF SNOW…SLEET…OR FREEZING RAIN WILL CAUSE TRAVEL DIFFICULTIES. BE PREPARED FOR SLIPPERY ROADS AND LIMITED VISIBILITIES…AND USE CAUTION WHILE DRIVING.



:D

Riggerjack
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by Riggerjack »

Uh huh.

I'm guess from your post that Texans are just too soft and weak to deal with a potential freeze? I was stationed in El Paso for 3 years in the 90's, and it froze regularly every year. Maybe they were right, East Texas is a whole other Texas...

steveo73
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by steveo73 »

Riggerjack wrote:The reason this thread has gone 14 pages on this site, is that there's a higher standard for making your point than simply restating your previous assertion more vigorously.
I completely agree. The question is does man made CO2 contribute to the earths temperature in any sort of a significant fashion - the answer is from my perspective that this cannot be validated at this point. We don't have sufficient information to make this statement.
Riggerjack wrote: That CO2 retains heat, is again not controversial. Have you ever BEEN in a greenhouse? This isn't under debate, or speculation, this is 7th grade physics. If you need to contest this, honestly, I don't know who would be interested.
I get it. This is exactly as per my formula. The thing is the earth's temperature cannot be modelled in such a simplistic fashion and this is why the models aren't working as expected.

I get the issue and I understand where you guys are coming from. My suggestion if you are a believer is to do some research and question a little bit what you are being told. Start with breaking away from the simplistic model that the earths temperature is based upon the amount of CO2 in the air.
Last edited by steveo73 on Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jacob
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by jacob »

LOL, You did it again!

workathome
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by workathome »

Reading Jacob's previous posts, it sounds like living pretty far North (say, Toronto) is good long-term from a GW perspective, but how far off is this and how negatively will the shifting cold currents cause problems in the long term? Like, would trying to get Canadian citizenship be a good strategy for my kids, or me, or would that be outside our lifetimes?

steveo73
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by steveo73 »

jacob wrote:LOL, You did it again!
Its tough isn't it. I hear you guys loud and clear. Maybe I have it wrong but its worth considering that the earths temperature is not a simple linear model dependent on CO2 in the environment.

steveo73
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by steveo73 »

workathome wrote:Reading Jacob's previous posts, it sounds like living pretty far North (say, Toronto) is good long-term from a GW perspective, but how far off is this and how negatively will the shifting cold currents cause problems in the long term? Like, would trying to get Canadian citizenship be a good strategy for my kids, or me, or would that be outside our lifetimes?
The equator is apparently the best spot to live because the cooler airs are getting pushed further towards the equator. GW is playing havoc with temperatures everywhere.

Seneca
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by Seneca »

jacob wrote:I would much prefer if we turn this discussion more towards politics than the correctness of Physic101.

My best argument against doing anything wrt GW is that humans can adapt to a lot---especially on a generational basis. The likely of an utterly catastrophic outcome seems to be very small and even if this was so, do present generations care what might happen in 500 years (e.g. suppose astronomers calculated that the Earth would be obliterated by an asteroid collision in 500 years, how much would that concern you ... frankly, it wouldn't depress me that much as in "I'd get over it"). To wit, I'm old enough to remember when the weather (and things weather related) was more stable. However, for the younger generation, the last decade is all they've ever seen. That's their normal. When they listen to me or my parents or grandparents talking about how the climate used to be, that's only hear-say in a sense and they probably think we're exaggerating anyway. To them now is the new normal because they don't have a reference point.
I am your age and the worst drought I remember was in the 1980's. I can't see that it's getting worse. The air is cleaner and so is the water. My favorite bird, the Peregrine Falcon, is no longer an endangered species.

The main reason I'm not nearly as interested or emotionally involved in the topic is exactly what you describe here. Weather has always changed. It's changing now, almost certainly with anthropogenic impact, but in the end, we will adapt. The world will adapt. It will be different. In some ways not as good, maybe in other ways better.

If we are wrong, we die. Pretty much the same outcome either way.
As a thought experiment, suppose GW had been discovered by 1650 (rather than 1850) and all the consequences had been mapped out by 1700 (rather than 2000), should we have proceeded not to industrialize. In retrospect, would that have been a good decision?
No.

Every one of us has the option to live as bigato said, rural 1700's style with the internet and hygiene. Most people, and increasingly so, choose cities, gadgets and tech fabrics.

It would be a very dramatic change for life to go back to being as short for most as it was in pre-industrial times, to say nothing of the fun we've had along the way. I'd almost surely already be dead in the old days, my being here would've been much less likely pre-industrial revolution and with anything less than 1960's technology the doc said my son would've slowly died just after birth while we watched helpless, instead of a few mostly really boring days in hospital...so I'm definitely biased!

We are living in the biggest thing since the industrial revolution. I'd hate to see it stop.

jacob
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by jacob »

@workathome - If you want to become a Canadian, Toronto is a good choice from a climate perspective. (I've actually been looking at RE right on the other side of the lake near Watertown, NY.) Otherwise you'll be fine in the northern states of the US as long as you stay out of storm-surge flood zones or anything below sea level for that matter (e.g. NorCal Delta). In that regard, the north eastern states have slightly better water supply/lack of drought (in the future) than the north western ones (more susceptible to weird weather in the PNW). In any case, I wouldn't put down roots in SW US (CA, AZ, NM, NV, ...).

Also consider that while global average temperatures are expected to go up by 2C by 2100, the increase at high Toronto latitudes are more like 5C. The time-scale is several decades from now. Probably not something we need to worry about now, but long-term planners or those planning for their children might want to get in early before "climate refugees" start driving up RE prices. Consider that if Americans go from 50% skepticism to 5% skepticism, RE prices in compromised areas are going to take a hit and vice versa. There are still suckers left though. That said, even now there are people living in the desert under much "worse" conditions that the average condition 100 years from now. If you don't mind sweating year round and conserving water as a lifestyle, Phoenix, Arizona is still possible.

As far as moving early, consider that heating costs at northern latitudes will remain high and go higher. If GW is the "hard place", energy supply is the "rock".

Also, don't buy a farm in the midwestern breadbasket, but do learn permaculture! High latitudes don't come with topsoil so you'll have to make your own. Fortunately, humans can do that 1000x faster than nature with biointensive farming.

In terms of food, prepare for even more volatile food prices. Currently US farmers slaughter their cattle during droughts which decreases meat prices and corn prices (cattle eat a lot of corn) and saves water. If we run out of the cattle buffer, expect prices on corn and water to fly all over the place. There have already been riots in other countries (Mexico for example) over food prices. Maybe expect similar problems in US cities where people are too poor to afford food.

Chad
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by Chad »

jacob wrote: In terms of food, prepare for even more volatile food prices. Currently US farmers slaughter their cattle during droughts which decreases meat prices and corn prices (cattle eat a lot of corn) and saves water. If we run out of the cattle buffer, expect prices on corn and water to fly all over the place. There have already been riots in other countries (Mexico for example) over food prices. Maybe expect similar problems in US cities where people are too poor to afford food.
It will be interesting to see if farmland REIT's can capture the increased food prices for us "mobile" non-land owning types.

Secondly, rich nations, even with the debt, will still counter some of these prices with policies. Again, it will absolutely suck to be poor. Always does and always will.

workathome
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by workathome »

Thanks for the great reply Jacob.

We're in Michigan right now, which sounds like a not-bad option to stay in for the foreseeable future. My wife has Canadian citizenship though, and we plan on obtaining it for our son, so it's definitely doable... and all Canadian real estate I've looked at looks really (too) expensive to me! Sort of was hoping for a significant crash/pullback sometime.

I do have close to 10% of my portfolio in Midwest (Ohio, Indiana, Michigan) farmland, theorizing it would help offset rising food prices. I think this should at least continue to inflation-protect for a while, but sounds like it might not be wise to buy a farm with plans to pass it along to the next generation or two.

Permaculture sounds great and interesting. Would be good knowledge to pass along generationally as well.

Tyler9000
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by Tyler9000 »

jacob wrote: In terms of food, prepare for even more volatile food prices. Currently US farmers slaughter their cattle during droughts which decreases meat prices and corn prices (cattle eat a lot of corn) and saves water. If we run out of the cattle buffer, expect prices on corn and water to fly all over the place. There have already been riots in other countries (Mexico for example) over food prices. Maybe expect similar problems in US cities where people are too poor to afford food.
This is a good example of where a government "solution" to an environmental concern actually makes human suffering worse. What do you expect to happen to food prices when you burn nearly half the US production of corn for fuel rather than food?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/1 ... 99046.html

Felix
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by Felix »

Any moving and real estate tips for Europe?

jacob
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by jacob »

@Felix - For most of Europe, there's no spectacular change other than more of what you're already seen. It'll rain more in the north and less in the south. The south will have longer periods of drought and increased desertification. Vector borne diseases (malaria) in the southern parts of Europe may become an issue.
Heatwaves (think 2003) will be longer in southern and central Europe. Due to rain, rivers (central Europe) will flood more often. Coastal areas on the Atlantic will be subject to storm surges (England 2014). The Dutch will have to work even harder protecting their land. Fortunately, they take this seriously.

The fear that the Gulf stream will shut off thus rendering northern Europe much colder does not seem to come about. Europe will heat up about 1C. More at higher elevations.

TL;DR - Don't buy in flood zones, near rivers, near the Atlantic ocean, below sea level, French vineyards (but you might consider English vineyards), and ski-resorts.

Felix
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by Felix »

Great, thanks!

leeholsen
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by leeholsen »

Riggerjack wrote:Uh huh.

I'm guess from your post that Texans are just too soft and weak to deal with a potential freeze? I was stationed in El Paso for 3 years in the 90's, and it froze regularly every year. Maybe they were right, East Texas is a whole other Texas...

no, i'm just a skeptic, denier, knuckle dragger; whatever you want to call me but it seems to me that the earth's climate corresponds with the 5 sun cycles and ocean currents than anything man can do outside of setting off 1,000s of nuclear explosions.

its just fun to put up extremes. this board is pretty educated, so i dont get much response; but i throw that stuff on some ski boards that i visit and they go batshit crazy and call me every name in the book; its halarious.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

leeholsen wrote:its just fun to put up extremes. this board is pretty educated, so i dont get much response; but i throw that stuff on some ski boards that i visit and they go batshit crazy and call me every name in the book; its halarious.
Also known as trolling/flame baiting. You're right, educated people don't feed trolls nor find them "halarious" (sic). I tend to ignore Yahoo News commenters too.

workathome
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by workathome »

"Always be prepared", I was a boy scout.

steveo73
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by steveo73 »

leeholsen wrote:no, i'm just a skeptic, denier, knuckle dragger; whatever you want to call me but it seems to me that the earth's climate corresponds with the 5 sun cycles and ocean currents than anything man can do outside of setting off 1,000s of nuclear explosions.
Its interesting how humans feel they are the centre of everything and search for ways to prove how important our role is. GW is to me a classic example. You'd think more people would take a step back and state well maybe the earths climate isn't as simple to understand as what is being postulated.

Maybe there is a tipping point where our impact on the environment has a significant effect but working out that tipping point is never going to be easy.

Chad
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Re: Climate Change: Fact, Fiction, Something in Between?

Post by Chad »

It's also interesting how humans...(then add whatever quaint saying we want)
Last edited by Chad on Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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