@dpmorel: I think 3 and 4 are somewhat mutually exclusive, especially when you're talking about art.
Create the PERFECT ERE Life...
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George the original one
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@AlexOliver - in the right states (Oregon, Washington, California), minimum wage is on the order of $16k/yr, about half of which is not taxed by the federal government and other taxes total about 15-20%. You just have to find a full-time job in the arts... If Jacob can live on $7k/yr, then there's a fair amount of slack for saving XX%.
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jacob
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And I say ...
Don't follow your passion. Let your passion stay clear of company politics, drudge work, etc. Do something which you're good at but aren't necessarily passionate about. Pick something sensible.
A lot of people are good at "movie appreciation", but it's tough to make a career out of it.
Don't follow your passion. Let your passion stay clear of company politics, drudge work, etc. Do something which you're good at but aren't necessarily passionate about. Pick something sensible.
A lot of people are good at "movie appreciation", but it's tough to make a career out of it.
I'm not so sure outsourcing will continue at the rapid pace it was. A lot of companies are actually bringing what they outsourced back to the U.S. They can control the quality better, get good P.R., and U.S. wage stagnation and foreign wage inflation have lessoned the financial reason to go overseas.
It should also be noted that peak oil will likely increase the cost of shipping, which will affect the outsourcing equation.
I'm not sure there is a perfect job/career.
Carpenters, plumbers, and electricians can't be outsourced, but given the massive housing and commercial real estate boom (46 sq. feet of commerial space for every American) they may not be in high demand for a while.
Medical professionals may see demand drop a little due to massive changes in healthcare and/or because Gen X doesn't have the numbers to fill the beds left by the baby boomers.
Really, if you are 18 you just need to make your best guess and pick the one you like the most. The career is probably less important than removing conspicuous consumption, and saving and investing the savings.
If I had to do it over I certainly wouldn't have picked accounting.
It should also be noted that peak oil will likely increase the cost of shipping, which will affect the outsourcing equation.
I'm not sure there is a perfect job/career.
Carpenters, plumbers, and electricians can't be outsourced, but given the massive housing and commercial real estate boom (46 sq. feet of commerial space for every American) they may not be in high demand for a while.
Medical professionals may see demand drop a little due to massive changes in healthcare and/or because Gen X doesn't have the numbers to fill the beds left by the baby boomers.
Really, if you are 18 you just need to make your best guess and pick the one you like the most. The career is probably less important than removing conspicuous consumption, and saving and investing the savings.
If I had to do it over I certainly wouldn't have picked accounting.
@Gibberade
If the only cost to your university education is opportunity cost, please stick it out. The value of a tertiary education is so much more than the anticipated wage boost. You will likely never again in your life find yourself in such a large pool of curious and intelligent people.
And while I'd encourage you to study things that interest and motivate you, I'll echo Redsted1 that a bachelor's degree in economics is unlikely to garner high wages. But if you enjoy the quantitative analysis and can bulk up on some statistics, get A- or better grades, then consider work as an actuarial -- typically for an insurance company or a hedge fund. The work can be mind numbing, but the pay is excellent.
If the only cost to your university education is opportunity cost, please stick it out. The value of a tertiary education is so much more than the anticipated wage boost. You will likely never again in your life find yourself in such a large pool of curious and intelligent people.
And while I'd encourage you to study things that interest and motivate you, I'll echo Redsted1 that a bachelor's degree in economics is unlikely to garner high wages. But if you enjoy the quantitative analysis and can bulk up on some statistics, get A- or better grades, then consider work as an actuarial -- typically for an insurance company or a hedge fund. The work can be mind numbing, but the pay is excellent.
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AlexOliver
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" You just have to find a full-time job in the arts... "
That's the rub, ain't it? If one's passion is making art (as mine is)...that doesn't conform to 9-5, 40 hrs week, etc. It happens when it happens and when it does it's great but it might not for a while and you might sell a piece here and there but for the most part you're not going to sell anything unless you're really good at marketing yourself. You would have to do 50 hours/week of administrative/advertising work to make that $16k/yr.
I agree with what Jacob said.
That's the rub, ain't it? If one's passion is making art (as mine is)...that doesn't conform to 9-5, 40 hrs week, etc. It happens when it happens and when it does it's great but it might not for a while and you might sell a piece here and there but for the most part you're not going to sell anything unless you're really good at marketing yourself. You would have to do 50 hours/week of administrative/advertising work to make that $16k/yr.
I agree with what Jacob said.
I've cut a deal with my parents. Finish one year in university; if I still hate it (as I do now), then I am welcome to come back home and become an apprentice carpenter. Quite a useful skill.
You guys are suggesting sticking it out. I can't see much value in doing that. Really, I don't think that much learning occurs in university. At least that's how I find it.
If I want to learn something, self-study is my preferred option. Right now I'm reading "Earth in Mind" and it offers a refreshing take on education. It's on Jacob's reading list. Thanks Jacob!
You guys are suggesting sticking it out. I can't see much value in doing that. Really, I don't think that much learning occurs in university. At least that's how I find it.
If I want to learn something, self-study is my preferred option. Right now I'm reading "Earth in Mind" and it offers a refreshing take on education. It's on Jacob's reading list. Thanks Jacob!
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jeremymday
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@ everyone - thanks for all the replies to this post... Glad you are all enjoying the question...
@ HSpencer - Thank you for bringing some humor to this post.
@ Redsted1 - What did you end up doing with your economics degree? You can go a lot of directions with it... Did you eventually get your masters or change your career?
@ Jacob - Im with you... follow what is sensible... leave your passion to your hobbies and do more of it in ERE. Otherwise, why would you retire from your passion? If your work is your passion just forget about ERE and enjoy your life. But still follow frugal living and wise investing principles...
@ Chad - Glad you are with me on the outsourcing/peak oil thing... So if you wouldn't have done accounting, what would you have chosen? (Not sure if you mentioned it elsewhere?)
@ Gibberade - I wish I had a forum like this when I was your age. Maybe I would have picked a more useful major myself.
My advice would be to follow your gut. You have a choice now to pursue a life of the mind (economics, actuary science, or whatever else you choose), or a life working with your hands (carpenter, etc). Answer this question.... "Where do you think you will do your best work?"
The older I get the more I realize how precious time is. Once you make the decision that college isn't for you, follow carpentry with unheard of passion. Passion is what gets you through this life, not degrees or anything else.
On the flip side, a degree has a very high value in this society so don't underestimate getting one. Its a nice thing to fall back on (a hedged bet, or an insurance policy, or risk mitigation) What if you injure yourself and cant do carpentry anymore? Would you rather have a degree or have your business built up to where you can have your employees do the work and you just do the sales and management? All things to consider...
There are no straight answers in life. And if you have really read a lot of Jacob's stuff you know his life changed when he did his PhD and realized he is the only one responsible for his life. The "they" becomes the "me".
Lucky for you, we have the internet, and there will always be a community you can find to encourage you, support you, and give you some thoughtful insights from our life experiences that can hopefully help you make some wise decisions about your own future...
Hope this helps...
Cheers,
Jeremy
@ HSpencer - Thank you for bringing some humor to this post.
@ Redsted1 - What did you end up doing with your economics degree? You can go a lot of directions with it... Did you eventually get your masters or change your career?
@ Jacob - Im with you... follow what is sensible... leave your passion to your hobbies and do more of it in ERE. Otherwise, why would you retire from your passion? If your work is your passion just forget about ERE and enjoy your life. But still follow frugal living and wise investing principles...
@ Chad - Glad you are with me on the outsourcing/peak oil thing... So if you wouldn't have done accounting, what would you have chosen? (Not sure if you mentioned it elsewhere?)
@ Gibberade - I wish I had a forum like this when I was your age. Maybe I would have picked a more useful major myself.
My advice would be to follow your gut. You have a choice now to pursue a life of the mind (economics, actuary science, or whatever else you choose), or a life working with your hands (carpenter, etc). Answer this question.... "Where do you think you will do your best work?"
The older I get the more I realize how precious time is. Once you make the decision that college isn't for you, follow carpentry with unheard of passion. Passion is what gets you through this life, not degrees or anything else.
On the flip side, a degree has a very high value in this society so don't underestimate getting one. Its a nice thing to fall back on (a hedged bet, or an insurance policy, or risk mitigation) What if you injure yourself and cant do carpentry anymore? Would you rather have a degree or have your business built up to where you can have your employees do the work and you just do the sales and management? All things to consider...
There are no straight answers in life. And if you have really read a lot of Jacob's stuff you know his life changed when he did his PhD and realized he is the only one responsible for his life. The "they" becomes the "me".
Lucky for you, we have the internet, and there will always be a community you can find to encourage you, support you, and give you some thoughtful insights from our life experiences that can hopefully help you make some wise decisions about your own future...
Hope this helps...
Cheers,
Jeremy
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George the original one
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@AlexOliver -
I said " You just have to find a full-time job in the arts... "
And you said "That's the rub, ain't it? If one's passion is making art (as mine is)...that doesn't conform to 9-5, 40 hrs week, etc."
Yes, that's the rub. Mainly, people only pay you for doing what THEY want you to do, not what YOU want to do.
There are jobs in the arts that are available, you just aren't likely to have all that much say in what you do, though you might be given creative freedom in a small area. Teaching art, making factory art, making art for advertising, doing performance art as advertising, etc. are the paying jobs.
I ran some scenarios and the western states minimum wage gig gets you freedom in about 20 years with a 30-40% saving rate, but the caveat is you HAVE to put the money into an IRA (except for what is needed for a 1-yr emergency fund). If you don't take the IRA deduction, the taxes will kill about half the potential future income and you'll have to rely on SSI to get you out of that mess. Anyways, after 20-25 years, you can do the "substantially equal withdrawls" to draw the money out before you turn 59-1/2.
In the mean time, you work at your personal art in every other waking moment.
Or... you get a job that pays more than minimum wage and gets you to ERE sooner than 20 years.
I said " You just have to find a full-time job in the arts... "
And you said "That's the rub, ain't it? If one's passion is making art (as mine is)...that doesn't conform to 9-5, 40 hrs week, etc."
Yes, that's the rub. Mainly, people only pay you for doing what THEY want you to do, not what YOU want to do.
There are jobs in the arts that are available, you just aren't likely to have all that much say in what you do, though you might be given creative freedom in a small area. Teaching art, making factory art, making art for advertising, doing performance art as advertising, etc. are the paying jobs.
I ran some scenarios and the western states minimum wage gig gets you freedom in about 20 years with a 30-40% saving rate, but the caveat is you HAVE to put the money into an IRA (except for what is needed for a 1-yr emergency fund). If you don't take the IRA deduction, the taxes will kill about half the potential future income and you'll have to rely on SSI to get you out of that mess. Anyways, after 20-25 years, you can do the "substantially equal withdrawls" to draw the money out before you turn 59-1/2.
In the mean time, you work at your personal art in every other waking moment.
Or... you get a job that pays more than minimum wage and gets you to ERE sooner than 20 years.
I would still go to college, even though it was basically useless for ERE, because I loved it. It was also a great transition from living at home to doing things on my own and I also learned how to talk to boys there. However, instead of going to a foofy private college, I would have gone to an in-state giant college and gotten the general liberal arts honors degree. That way I still would have met smart, interesting people. And I would have saved a lot of money.
I would have taken any subsidized loans offered, even if I didn’t need them, and invested them in CDs so I could pay them off immediately after college and keep the interest for myself.
I would have stayed in that town (my favorite) and continued living without a car as long as possible (until my friends all moved out to the suburbs) and with roommates (as I have).
When job hunting, I would have looked at things that paid more, even if they didn’t sound fun, knowing that I wouldn’t have to do it forever. For example, I really, really should have taken that Y2K COBOL job when I had the chance. I just didn’t even realize that ERE was a possibility until I was already in the golden handcuffs of a low-paying state-pension job. I’m going with mere early retirement, but with a much more stable income than ERE’s have (a pension + stocks + paid-off house).
I dislike most jobs, which is why I want to retire. I’m not strong enough for plumbing. I don’t have the frustration tolerance for programming. I can only tolerate sick, crabby people for so long. I always thought I wanted to teach, but I don’t have the people skills for classroom teaching (I’m good with tutoring, though). Now I know I like organizing complicated concepts for lay readers (translating geek to English, training people persons in data skills, etc.), but I still don’t know good ways to use that skill. I think I should have tried being an actuary. I’m not afraid of math. Or tests.
I would have taken any subsidized loans offered, even if I didn’t need them, and invested them in CDs so I could pay them off immediately after college and keep the interest for myself.
I would have stayed in that town (my favorite) and continued living without a car as long as possible (until my friends all moved out to the suburbs) and with roommates (as I have).
When job hunting, I would have looked at things that paid more, even if they didn’t sound fun, knowing that I wouldn’t have to do it forever. For example, I really, really should have taken that Y2K COBOL job when I had the chance. I just didn’t even realize that ERE was a possibility until I was already in the golden handcuffs of a low-paying state-pension job. I’m going with mere early retirement, but with a much more stable income than ERE’s have (a pension + stocks + paid-off house).
I dislike most jobs, which is why I want to retire. I’m not strong enough for plumbing. I don’t have the frustration tolerance for programming. I can only tolerate sick, crabby people for so long. I always thought I wanted to teach, but I don’t have the people skills for classroom teaching (I’m good with tutoring, though). Now I know I like organizing complicated concepts for lay readers (translating geek to English, training people persons in data skills, etc.), but I still don’t know good ways to use that skill. I think I should have tried being an actuary. I’m not afraid of math. Or tests.
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jeremymday
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The actuary field has become quite popular recently. I have even considered it but I like my current work situation a little too much to go sit in an office and do math.
If you aren't afraid of math and don't mind crunching numbers in an office for a few years, being an actuary is a great way to go...
Requirements: 4 year degree, plus the first 2 of 9 actuary exams which can be completed during college, plus possibly knowing someone in the insurance industry, or moving to a city with more openings (Eastern US namely New York has much more openings then elsewhere).
http://www.beanactuary.org/faq.cfm
Also as an MBA graduate I wish I would have know this before I got my MBA...
"Actuaries are well compensated. Experienced Fellows have the potential to earn from $150,000 to $250,000 annually. In fact, did you know that new Associate actuaries earned a higher salary than the average MBA in 2002?"
Caveat: An Associate has already worked in the field 4-8 years and has successfully passed 7 of the exams.
You need good computer programming skills as well to be competitive.
Starting salaries are on average $56,000 and go up from there...
Source: http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos041.htm
If you aren't afraid of math and don't mind crunching numbers in an office for a few years, being an actuary is a great way to go...
Requirements: 4 year degree, plus the first 2 of 9 actuary exams which can be completed during college, plus possibly knowing someone in the insurance industry, or moving to a city with more openings (Eastern US namely New York has much more openings then elsewhere).
http://www.beanactuary.org/faq.cfm
Also as an MBA graduate I wish I would have know this before I got my MBA...
"Actuaries are well compensated. Experienced Fellows have the potential to earn from $150,000 to $250,000 annually. In fact, did you know that new Associate actuaries earned a higher salary than the average MBA in 2002?"
Caveat: An Associate has already worked in the field 4-8 years and has successfully passed 7 of the exams.
You need good computer programming skills as well to be competitive.
Starting salaries are on average $56,000 and go up from there...
Source: http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos041.htm
Love this thread, although it pains me to say I wasn't sure how to answer. My head is still clouded with Conventional Wisdom, I think. Then I came across this by JohnnyH and tend to agree:
"I don't know, the journey is more important than the destination... At 18 I wouldn't have appreciated freedom because I never experienced slavery."
I've had a pretty good run - college paid for by my parents, good job as a CPA and now a terrific wife and 2 kids. The only thing I'd change would be not get married and buy a house the month after graduating college. That put me in wage slave territory right off the bat. Not to mention my first (ex)-wife was a free spender and after 5 years of marriage I had nothing to show for all that work except credit card debt. But that's part of who I am now and I'm better for it. I'm only now (10+ years later) learning there are other options. It would have been nice to be able to save 30-50% of my income and keep living like I did in college and be ERE right now.
But, like Jacob, I dream of doing something with my hands - carpentry or electrician seem the most attractive. Nursing also intrigues me. I was pre-med in college and now look back and wonder why I didn't consider it then - maybe the gender bias towards females?
Sorry if this post rambles, my brain is tired after a long week and not much sleep last night.
"I don't know, the journey is more important than the destination... At 18 I wouldn't have appreciated freedom because I never experienced slavery."
I've had a pretty good run - college paid for by my parents, good job as a CPA and now a terrific wife and 2 kids. The only thing I'd change would be not get married and buy a house the month after graduating college. That put me in wage slave territory right off the bat. Not to mention my first (ex)-wife was a free spender and after 5 years of marriage I had nothing to show for all that work except credit card debt. But that's part of who I am now and I'm better for it. I'm only now (10+ years later) learning there are other options. It would have been nice to be able to save 30-50% of my income and keep living like I did in college and be ERE right now.
But, like Jacob, I dream of doing something with my hands - carpentry or electrician seem the most attractive. Nursing also intrigues me. I was pre-med in college and now look back and wonder why I didn't consider it then - maybe the gender bias towards females?
Sorry if this post rambles, my brain is tired after a long week and not much sleep last night.
@jeremymday-I enjoyed Economics as a field of study in college for my undergraduate degree--but not enough to pursue it any further. I worked in restaurants to get through college and fell into a great bartending job just out of college. I worked at a club-type bar in a ritzy suburb near Seattle and made great money, but then decided to try my hand at "the real world" (since society doesn't care for the "fake" world...). I'm currently managing a few retirement communities and waiting tables on the side to pad the savings. The plan is to purchase a bar within the next few months here and owner operate to maximize my personal cash flow from it. It's very close to happening, actually, so I'm getting very excited.
Interesting path for an Econ. major, huh?
Interesting path for an Econ. major, huh?
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firefighter
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:03 am
I'm a little late into this discussion, but I'd
agree with Kevin W above- auto mechanic.
Specifically, auto mechanic in a large metro suburb.
If you're truly interested in retiring very early (<10yrs work,
< 30 years of age), then this field wins hands down.
This field is also excellent for semi-retirement.
To cheat the OP's question a little bit, too, this is
a field you can start learning well before age 18, also.
Most high schools have decent programs available in this.
A Jacobian retirement by 25 is more than possible.
Potential pitfalls include: spending too much money
on tools/toolboxes, overgeneralizing, AND overspecializing.
agree with Kevin W above- auto mechanic.
Specifically, auto mechanic in a large metro suburb.
If you're truly interested in retiring very early (<10yrs work,
< 30 years of age), then this field wins hands down.
This field is also excellent for semi-retirement.
To cheat the OP's question a little bit, too, this is
a field you can start learning well before age 18, also.
Most high schools have decent programs available in this.
A Jacobian retirement by 25 is more than possible.
Potential pitfalls include: spending too much money
on tools/toolboxes, overgeneralizing, AND overspecializing.
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AlexOliver
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- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:25 pm
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RightClawSouth
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"i am somewhat amazed nobody suggested "high" finance/day trader. Extremely high paying field and learning to invest is invaluable skill for "retirement""
It's not clear to me that these professionals actually know anything about investing (e.g., Kerviel). I think where they excel at making money is through arbitrage (HF trading) or sales/deal making (e.g., convincing clients to do securities lending at outrageous terms).
It's not clear to me that these professionals actually know anything about investing (e.g., Kerviel). I think where they excel at making money is through arbitrage (HF trading) or sales/deal making (e.g., convincing clients to do securities lending at outrageous terms).