I have followed this thread feverishly, but have been hesitant to comment.....
I suppose that I have been hesitant because child rearing (or telling someone else how to do it) is taboo to the level of religion or left right politics. It has been enjoyable to read other's accounts of their rearing but even more enjoyable reading about others plans or pre set notions about raising their future children.
I will only speak from my personal experience.
One incident that I often laugh about concerned a friend of my wife's small child. We were with the mother and her child at lunch and my wife was expecting our first child. I remember the child running over to a stranger's table in a restaurant and grabbing a piece of food from the person's plate and taking off like a bandit. The stranger thought it somewhat amusing, the mother a bit embarrassed but dismissing, and us...we were appalled! How could she let the child behave like that?!? OUR child will certainly never act like that! What a bad mother she is!
My wife and I talked about that incident for weeks and modeled our future parenting in a very contrarian way.
Fast forward about two years. My inlaws had taken us out for pizza and I had to take DD out of the restaurant because she was uncontrollably screaming, throwing a huge tantrum. I flashed back to the moment when I was so judgmental of my wife's friend about her parenting. I audibly giggled. At that time I was wishing for something so minor. We had been through an anoxic event at birth, aphonia, muscle tone problems, colic, trying to maintain employment through those cycles, a thieving nanny...... I could go on but that is not the point. The point is that having children is not filled with certainty and exacts. We often laugh about how judgmental we were of that person and her parenting and how actually being a parent was so much different than we thought.
Our ERE conversion took place in the midst of some very formative years for our now 11 and 13 year olds. They started their lives being buried in consumerism and have watched a dramatic transformation. We started something by living in one spot within the same school system with the same people friends and intend to finish it by staying until they both graduate. Simply put, we could live many other suitable places for cheaper but we don't move, for our belief of what is currently best for them. Despite our best efforts and prompting, decreased consumerism leaves them asking questions because they compare themselves to their peers (as most children do IMO.) They are aware of and enjoy the positive changes our life course offers but still have to be reminded when they question us that we are not "poor."
We spend more time with our children than any parents I know of. They excel in their middle class training at school. (I have very mixed feelings about that part.) They seem to be very loving and we have very, very open relationships with both.
Again, my point is that pre-parents views of parenting likely do not foreshadow what the real course will be.
Kids on ERE
Re: Kids on ERE
Jenny, I guess that would depend on your and your family's definition of "ERE" or "non-consumerism." When our kids were young, we would have called this lifestyle "thrifty or frugal," and that's what we attempted to do.
If you read what I've written carefully (and I realize that's asking a lot, because I've written a lot) you'll see that I don't mention *things* so much as I mention *experiences* and *skill sets.*
Swim team, not video games. (Although in all honesty, our kids did have a Nintendo and some video games. Christmas/birthday gifts, etc.)
Track, cross country, music lessons, some travel (which I haven't mentioned) some additional tutoring/prep courses, not designer label clothing.
If those things fall under your definition of "consumerism" then our lifestyle and choices won't work for you.
If those types of things fall outside of the scope of what you would provide to a child/teenager in the name of an ERE lifestyle, then we are going to have to agree to disagree.
And here's where I look at the suggestion that $200/month is an adequate budget allowance for a child and declare that in my world, it won't be enough. On some months, sure. On many more months, nope.
Swim team, for instance: I've mentioned that we, especially my husband, could have taught our kids to swim. My husband had his life guard certification and worked as a life guard over the summer in college. We could have certainly taught the boys to swim. It would not have been the same experience as swim lessons, certainly not the same experience as swim team. I seriously doubt that our swimming instructions would have resulted in our boys' subsequent life guard certifications and pool operator certificates, which kept them employed over summers and as part-time supplemental work throughout college and even into their adult years.
But swim team costs cash- lots of cash. The requisite swim suit and goggles and swim team fees are just the beginning. In order to be on swim team, one must be associated with a swimming pool. That's going to cost a few hundred dollars a year. We didn't join the country club in order to have access to a pool. We didn't join a private pool to have access to a pool. We joined the YMCA for a considerably lower family fee- that also gave us access to the rest of the Y facilities, and lowered our pool fee for the summer. (I'm really scraping the bottom of the memory banks for this information... I do remember that joining the Y was the very best bargain we could get for our money at that time.)
According to what I read here, that's not ERE-acceptable. Because there's a way to get the kid swimming without paying someone else to be involved. Because, in ERE world, if you can teach the child to swim, that should suffice. And that's where I say, "Really? Because if you are paying for your own fencing lessons, or your own martial arts lessons, or you are buying yourself any sort of enrichment or entertainment *at all,* denying these opportunities to your CHILD during these formative years is SELFISH."
I don't care if you can't teach yourself fencing. No excuse. Your child can't teach himself swimming, and a parent teaching a child to swim is *not* a substitute for the swim team experience. And that *is* the way I see it.
I'll go without fencing lessons and tai kwon do and gadgets for my road bike and whatever else, but I will provide the opportunity for my kid to stretch his muscles, his mind, his psyche, and to learn basic socialization skills through team and group activities.
Do I think that we raised our kids in an indulgent, non-thrifty or a not "ERE" fashion by affording these types of enrichment? Nope. I think that if we'd joined the country club and had our kids (and ourselves) served refreshments poolside during swim meets by staff and from silver chafing dishes, yes, that would have been setting up expectations that might run afoul of a future frugal lifestyle. Or not- I learned a long time ago not to judge a book by its cover. Don't assume that every person you meet at a country club is a wasteful, consumerist spendthrift. You could find yourself shockingly wrong.
And yes, our swim team had meets with other teams at other pools where the hosting swim team was served hamburgers, hot dogs, nachos, etc. from silver chafing dishes on white linen covered tables by club staff. It was sort of hilariously dissonant. My husband and I looked at each other, whispered "Caddy Shack" and burst out laughing at ourselves.
Jenny, I will say again, I think we are more similar than different. I am *not* reading that you are denying your kids these types of opportunities. Rather, I am reading that, like us, you skip the country club and take your family to the Y.
Our kids took themselves to Goodwill to shop during high school. They still cut their own hair and DIY whatever they can, so evidently some thriftiness rubbed off on them.
Sshawnn, hilarious. Your story reminds me of a post soccer season pizza party that for some ungodly reason was held on a WEEKNIGHT. This was after school, after a soccer game or practice or something, I don't remember, but all of these families descended on the pizza place on this weeknight in the fall? I remember walking into the place in deep dusk.
Our kids were far enough along in age and maturity that they were fine. There were other families there with younger kids, and some of the younger players had even younger, non-teammate siblings along. Our kids were sitting there eating pizza while directly across from us, a set of parents were struggling with a younger sibling who started whining and progressed to a full scale, full body melt down. They were trying hard to get the situation under control and not pull their older child away from the party, because the older kid was having a good time with his teammates and he was perfectly behaved. At one point they looked over at us and the mother said, "How do you prevent temper tantrums?"
I didn't miss a beat or bat an eye. With a perfectly straight face I answered, "Condoms."
They blinked, looked at each other, and burst out laughing.
Yeah, we've all been there.
If you read what I've written carefully (and I realize that's asking a lot, because I've written a lot) you'll see that I don't mention *things* so much as I mention *experiences* and *skill sets.*
Swim team, not video games. (Although in all honesty, our kids did have a Nintendo and some video games. Christmas/birthday gifts, etc.)
Track, cross country, music lessons, some travel (which I haven't mentioned) some additional tutoring/prep courses, not designer label clothing.
If those things fall under your definition of "consumerism" then our lifestyle and choices won't work for you.
If those types of things fall outside of the scope of what you would provide to a child/teenager in the name of an ERE lifestyle, then we are going to have to agree to disagree.
And here's where I look at the suggestion that $200/month is an adequate budget allowance for a child and declare that in my world, it won't be enough. On some months, sure. On many more months, nope.
Swim team, for instance: I've mentioned that we, especially my husband, could have taught our kids to swim. My husband had his life guard certification and worked as a life guard over the summer in college. We could have certainly taught the boys to swim. It would not have been the same experience as swim lessons, certainly not the same experience as swim team. I seriously doubt that our swimming instructions would have resulted in our boys' subsequent life guard certifications and pool operator certificates, which kept them employed over summers and as part-time supplemental work throughout college and even into their adult years.
But swim team costs cash- lots of cash. The requisite swim suit and goggles and swim team fees are just the beginning. In order to be on swim team, one must be associated with a swimming pool. That's going to cost a few hundred dollars a year. We didn't join the country club in order to have access to a pool. We didn't join a private pool to have access to a pool. We joined the YMCA for a considerably lower family fee- that also gave us access to the rest of the Y facilities, and lowered our pool fee for the summer. (I'm really scraping the bottom of the memory banks for this information... I do remember that joining the Y was the very best bargain we could get for our money at that time.)
According to what I read here, that's not ERE-acceptable. Because there's a way to get the kid swimming without paying someone else to be involved. Because, in ERE world, if you can teach the child to swim, that should suffice. And that's where I say, "Really? Because if you are paying for your own fencing lessons, or your own martial arts lessons, or you are buying yourself any sort of enrichment or entertainment *at all,* denying these opportunities to your CHILD during these formative years is SELFISH."
I don't care if you can't teach yourself fencing. No excuse. Your child can't teach himself swimming, and a parent teaching a child to swim is *not* a substitute for the swim team experience. And that *is* the way I see it.
I'll go without fencing lessons and tai kwon do and gadgets for my road bike and whatever else, but I will provide the opportunity for my kid to stretch his muscles, his mind, his psyche, and to learn basic socialization skills through team and group activities.
Do I think that we raised our kids in an indulgent, non-thrifty or a not "ERE" fashion by affording these types of enrichment? Nope. I think that if we'd joined the country club and had our kids (and ourselves) served refreshments poolside during swim meets by staff and from silver chafing dishes, yes, that would have been setting up expectations that might run afoul of a future frugal lifestyle. Or not- I learned a long time ago not to judge a book by its cover. Don't assume that every person you meet at a country club is a wasteful, consumerist spendthrift. You could find yourself shockingly wrong.
And yes, our swim team had meets with other teams at other pools where the hosting swim team was served hamburgers, hot dogs, nachos, etc. from silver chafing dishes on white linen covered tables by club staff. It was sort of hilariously dissonant. My husband and I looked at each other, whispered "Caddy Shack" and burst out laughing at ourselves.Jenny, I will say again, I think we are more similar than different. I am *not* reading that you are denying your kids these types of opportunities. Rather, I am reading that, like us, you skip the country club and take your family to the Y.
Our kids took themselves to Goodwill to shop during high school. They still cut their own hair and DIY whatever they can, so evidently some thriftiness rubbed off on them.
Sshawnn, hilarious. Your story reminds me of a post soccer season pizza party that for some ungodly reason was held on a WEEKNIGHT. This was after school, after a soccer game or practice or something, I don't remember, but all of these families descended on the pizza place on this weeknight in the fall? I remember walking into the place in deep dusk.
Our kids were far enough along in age and maturity that they were fine. There were other families there with younger kids, and some of the younger players had even younger, non-teammate siblings along. Our kids were sitting there eating pizza while directly across from us, a set of parents were struggling with a younger sibling who started whining and progressed to a full scale, full body melt down. They were trying hard to get the situation under control and not pull their older child away from the party, because the older kid was having a good time with his teammates and he was perfectly behaved. At one point they looked over at us and the mother said, "How do you prevent temper tantrums?"
I didn't miss a beat or bat an eye. With a perfectly straight face I answered, "Condoms."
They blinked, looked at each other, and burst out laughing.
Yeah, we've all been there.
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jennypenny
- Posts: 6910
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
Re: Kids on ERE
I guess I use Jacob's definition of ERE ... http://earlyretirementextreme.com/wiki/ ... _is_ERE%3FBecaS wrote:Jenny, I guess that would depend on your and your family's definition of "ERE" or "non-consumerism."
Re: Kids on ERE
Possum Living! I'm sort of surprised that no one has mentioned that before now.
You do know that Dolly Freed showed up again recently, right, Carlos?
She had a very interesting career as a NASA engineer!
You do know that Dolly Freed showed up again recently, right, Carlos?
She had a very interesting career as a NASA engineer!
Re: Kids on ERE
Yes after I saw the documentary I looked her up and read about her being a NASA engineer. Very interesting. It's not a lifestyle for me but what a remarkable woman!
Re: Kids on ERE
I definitely have to read that book! I feel very inspired by the video, she really gets it, and the way how she convinced the host of that show was amazing...
Anyway, back to the kids topic... This is definitely something I wanna do with my kids, if I ever have them:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Backyard-Ballis ... 613740646/
Hopefully it won't be expensive as we probably can get most of the parts for free.
Anyway, back to the kids topic... This is definitely something I wanna do with my kids, if I ever have them:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Backyard-Ballis ... 613740646/
Hopefully it won't be expensive as we probably can get most of the parts for free.Re: Kids on ERE
We are first time parents over 30 and I don't see it as problematic at all.
Understanding ERE as a strategy rather than a destination, I don't think there is an exclusive decision to make there regarding children. If anything living ERE principles made me want children more by alleviating many of my biggest concerns.
If you are worried about the time to FI due to having children, do yourself and your unborn children a favor and really consider why you are wanting to have them. There are much more significant changes/challenges from kids than the financial costs.
I did have a pretty funny related conversation recently. I was obliquely discussing ERE with a friend, and father of two, recently. Mainly on how to quickly get to FI. He raised the objection of the costs of hiring experts to help develop skills in his kids he doesn't have, like gymnastics. His oldest (@7) has joined one of these "semi-pro" traveling gymnastics teams, and he shared the costs with me. Holy shit.
My response was that if this was the roadblock to hitting FI and it was that important to our family, I could always lease space, hire an instructor and be in the gymnastics business. He got a funny smile, and told me the owner of the gym they go to started the business exactly for that reason, to alleviate the financial strain of his children's gymnastics.
Understanding ERE as a strategy rather than a destination, I don't think there is an exclusive decision to make there regarding children. If anything living ERE principles made me want children more by alleviating many of my biggest concerns.
If you are worried about the time to FI due to having children, do yourself and your unborn children a favor and really consider why you are wanting to have them. There are much more significant changes/challenges from kids than the financial costs.
I did have a pretty funny related conversation recently. I was obliquely discussing ERE with a friend, and father of two, recently. Mainly on how to quickly get to FI. He raised the objection of the costs of hiring experts to help develop skills in his kids he doesn't have, like gymnastics. His oldest (@7) has joined one of these "semi-pro" traveling gymnastics teams, and he shared the costs with me. Holy shit.
My response was that if this was the roadblock to hitting FI and it was that important to our family, I could always lease space, hire an instructor and be in the gymnastics business. He got a funny smile, and told me the owner of the gym they go to started the business exactly for that reason, to alleviate the financial strain of his children's gymnastics.
Re: Kids on ERE
This thread is getting ridiculous and redundant... With enough creativity and dedication the entire hierarchy of needs can be met for zero [or negative] dollars. I think it goes back to what Jacob said about the classes; some people cannot fathom a reality without the transfer of money for basically everything. Skill replaces money. IE: raising Amish children to 18 is almost certainly a profitable venture (insert talk of "sacrifice" here 
).
I'm sure 98% of US adults (especially in mid, upper classes) would also consider my pleasant lifestyle absolutely unobtainable for the money I spend. Vast majority of posts on MMM mainstream articles express doubt, anger and/or rationalization of their own [expensive] lifestyles.
Lack of imagination perhaps. Which is consistent with the mantra "you don't have kids, you know nothing!" ... Hm, I asked my friends who actually have kids how much they spend. I have read books and blogs. Am I allowed to process this data, or are my conclusions preemptively irrelevant? Funny any business venture ever succeeded since all projections before the fact are apparently invalid... I don't own a Lexus SUV or have a dog, but I can use my imagination, resources and brain to make estimates on cost.
12 months of food: negligible, large garden, procured meat... Negative cost once they become good farm hands.
Child's portion of dwelling: $0, already paid for... I might even put 2 in a room (Oh, the humanity!)
Child's portion of utilities: negligible, at least until their develop interest in calculation intensive computing.
Entertainment: free with high speed internet
Enrichment: uh, are these the paid music, swimming lessons and team sports that made my career parents feel less guilty?
transportation: negligible.
School supplies: free with internet, likely home school anyway... Fine, $5/month in bulk pencils and paper.
Clothes: gross overproduction. New shirts online are $2, hopefully less in thrift.
Towels and linens: I haven't bought these in 10 years but I still have some that fulfill their function.
Soap: Castile soap like I use... The harsh soap in their eyes will harden them to the realities of life.
).I'm sure 98% of US adults (especially in mid, upper classes) would also consider my pleasant lifestyle absolutely unobtainable for the money I spend. Vast majority of posts on MMM mainstream articles express doubt, anger and/or rationalization of their own [expensive] lifestyles.
Lack of imagination perhaps. Which is consistent with the mantra "you don't have kids, you know nothing!" ... Hm, I asked my friends who actually have kids how much they spend. I have read books and blogs. Am I allowed to process this data, or are my conclusions preemptively irrelevant? Funny any business venture ever succeeded since all projections before the fact are apparently invalid... I don't own a Lexus SUV or have a dog, but I can use my imagination, resources and brain to make estimates on cost.
12 months of food: negligible, large garden, procured meat... Negative cost once they become good farm hands.
Child's portion of dwelling: $0, already paid for... I might even put 2 in a room (Oh, the humanity!)
Child's portion of utilities: negligible, at least until their develop interest in calculation intensive computing.
Entertainment: free with high speed internet
Enrichment: uh, are these the paid music, swimming lessons and team sports that made my career parents feel less guilty?
transportation: negligible.
School supplies: free with internet, likely home school anyway... Fine, $5/month in bulk pencils and paper.
Clothes: gross overproduction. New shirts online are $2, hopefully less in thrift.
Towels and linens: I haven't bought these in 10 years but I still have some that fulfill their function.
Soap: Castile soap like I use... The harsh soap in their eyes will harden them to the realities of life.
Re: Kids on ERE
Nope, I'm pretty much serious... We're talking costs here, right? So isn't it as simple as providing food and shelter, and other line items like internet?
Why the obfuscation?
Why the obfuscation?
Re: Kids on ERE
I have 3 kids, 12,10 and 3. The costs add up significantly but I really don't see the big issue. I don't want to be a miser who doesn't do anything just so I don't have to work.
The older kids cost money on stuff like sporting activities and school expenses. A good example is school camps cost a couple of hundred dollars. My youngest kid costs a fortune due to day care fees as both my wife and myself work full time.
I don't view early retirement or FI as some sort of linear statistical model. To me it is more about saving as much as possible and using those savings to get to FI and then ER if you choose too. In saying that I've calculated my savings rate at 0.672166 or 67.2166%. My analysis has me retiring in 13.17 years. The truth is though that this is a guideline. The kids should cost less over time so I should be able to meet my FIRE goal earlier.
The older kids cost money on stuff like sporting activities and school expenses. A good example is school camps cost a couple of hundred dollars. My youngest kid costs a fortune due to day care fees as both my wife and myself work full time.
I don't view early retirement or FI as some sort of linear statistical model. To me it is more about saving as much as possible and using those savings to get to FI and then ER if you choose too. In saying that I've calculated my savings rate at 0.672166 or 67.2166%. My analysis has me retiring in 13.17 years. The truth is though that this is a guideline. The kids should cost less over time so I should be able to meet my FIRE goal earlier.
Re: Kids on ERE
@ffj: I know what you're saying... I'm sure I'm going to indulge them plenty on pursuits I find worthwhile and go way over-budget. I just want to stay firmly in the you can raise great kids on almost no money camp.
Also, I have grave reservations about helicopter parented, resume kids so many upper-middle class people seem to be obsessing over:
http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/b ... ks_kolbert
Reading that article I would much rather have a kid like the one the traditional culture produced than suburban LA.
Also, I have grave reservations about helicopter parented, resume kids so many upper-middle class people seem to be obsessing over:
http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/b ... ks_kolbert
Reading that article I would much rather have a kid like the one the traditional culture produced than suburban LA.
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Gravity's Rainbow
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:34 pm
Re: Kids on ERE
To the OP:
"At this point I'm not even sure I ever want to have kids."
There's your answer right there. I have two and they are the hardest job I've ever had. That's ok, I signed up for that and I'm very happy. Yeah, sure you might discover (as I guess I did) new found joys that you couldn't have imagined beforehand. However, you need to be fairly certain that it's what you want to do before going in, IMHO.
There will be others who disagree with me I'm sure but at least give yourself a head start by only having children if you are sure you really want them. It's a brave new world afterwards and there's no going back.
"At this point I'm not even sure I ever want to have kids."
There's your answer right there. I have two and they are the hardest job I've ever had. That's ok, I signed up for that and I'm very happy. Yeah, sure you might discover (as I guess I did) new found joys that you couldn't have imagined beforehand. However, you need to be fairly certain that it's what you want to do before going in, IMHO.
There will be others who disagree with me I'm sure but at least give yourself a head start by only having children if you are sure you really want them. It's a brave new world afterwards and there's no going back.
Re: Kids on ERE
Great thread. I have several children. Here is my opinion:
Have kids at any age if you have a life plan. I had my first child at 23. We were completely impoverished and in college but had a trajectory where I knew I would be able to cover all costs. I recommend children at any age, if you have a life plan. The plan does not need to come to fruition and it does not need to be rigid. Most people make it ok even without any plan, and people on this website seem to be particularly adept at adaptation so you will be ok.
I recommend marriage. The data on marriage being good for you, your significant other, and children is pretty powerful in the social sciences. Everyone thinks they "know" the reason is because marriage is correlated with education, or money, or whatever but maybe marriage is the reason - no one knows.
As far as costs of children go - I got half way through the thread but did not read it all so I apologize if covering old ground. My bias is that I would have children if it meant that I had to work for "the man" until the last day of my 90th year and dropped dead the next. Its that great! Its that hard. Its that awesome. It is an essential activity of humanity that we get to share with those who went before us and those who come after us and helps us better understand what it is all about to be human. Ok, I am gushing, but I love it.
I think children cost a lot. I think my kids deserve to be on a team, have a bike (all used, except last year Black Friday had a crazy sale so one son got a NEW bike), play an instrument, play piano, join a club, have birthday parties, go to birthday parties where they fulfill the expectation to bring a gift as the payment for the party, go on trips that they enjoy, go camping, own their own knives, own their own books, eat ice cream, eat cake, have a batman play outfit (maybe handmade like ours), go trick or treating, get Christmas presents (sometimes even new ones), watch tv occasionally, see a movie in the theater, play a video game, have their parents help them with college.
Well it sounds like I am just a middle class consumer. I don't know, but we buy used clothes, shoes, books, bikes, toys. I refused to have a dishwasher until our last house because I wanted to save money and have the children work. We use the library. We need to do more. I came to this site because I want to learn to live more frugally and cut down on costs and hopefully develop a way of living that allows me live differently and independently but I think all of the above is fine and great for my children. It looks like the author has the skills I need. I will work on living in a way to trim costs and develop a workable lifestyle, but I feel comfortable working those things into our lives.
When a child asks me for some bauble most the time parents have to say no because we cannot afford it or its silly. But sometimes, its nice to say yes - we will pay the $120 so you can play little league and we will buy the bat, gloves, and helmet the team requires. Sometimes its nice to buy your daughter new earrings so she can impress the boy she likes - that is all madness and superficial but some of the world is madness and superficial and sometimes its better to not fight that battle because we want to fight a battle about something much more important to our family than money.
I would definitely not let ERE influence my choice to have or not have children. They are too awesome and people who without choice lived on less managed to work children into the equation.
Have kids at any age if you have a life plan. I had my first child at 23. We were completely impoverished and in college but had a trajectory where I knew I would be able to cover all costs. I recommend children at any age, if you have a life plan. The plan does not need to come to fruition and it does not need to be rigid. Most people make it ok even without any plan, and people on this website seem to be particularly adept at adaptation so you will be ok.
I recommend marriage. The data on marriage being good for you, your significant other, and children is pretty powerful in the social sciences. Everyone thinks they "know" the reason is because marriage is correlated with education, or money, or whatever but maybe marriage is the reason - no one knows.
As far as costs of children go - I got half way through the thread but did not read it all so I apologize if covering old ground. My bias is that I would have children if it meant that I had to work for "the man" until the last day of my 90th year and dropped dead the next. Its that great! Its that hard. Its that awesome. It is an essential activity of humanity that we get to share with those who went before us and those who come after us and helps us better understand what it is all about to be human. Ok, I am gushing, but I love it.
I think children cost a lot. I think my kids deserve to be on a team, have a bike (all used, except last year Black Friday had a crazy sale so one son got a NEW bike), play an instrument, play piano, join a club, have birthday parties, go to birthday parties where they fulfill the expectation to bring a gift as the payment for the party, go on trips that they enjoy, go camping, own their own knives, own their own books, eat ice cream, eat cake, have a batman play outfit (maybe handmade like ours), go trick or treating, get Christmas presents (sometimes even new ones), watch tv occasionally, see a movie in the theater, play a video game, have their parents help them with college.
Well it sounds like I am just a middle class consumer. I don't know, but we buy used clothes, shoes, books, bikes, toys. I refused to have a dishwasher until our last house because I wanted to save money and have the children work. We use the library. We need to do more. I came to this site because I want to learn to live more frugally and cut down on costs and hopefully develop a way of living that allows me live differently and independently but I think all of the above is fine and great for my children. It looks like the author has the skills I need. I will work on living in a way to trim costs and develop a workable lifestyle, but I feel comfortable working those things into our lives.
When a child asks me for some bauble most the time parents have to say no because we cannot afford it or its silly. But sometimes, its nice to say yes - we will pay the $120 so you can play little league and we will buy the bat, gloves, and helmet the team requires. Sometimes its nice to buy your daughter new earrings so she can impress the boy she likes - that is all madness and superficial but some of the world is madness and superficial and sometimes its better to not fight that battle because we want to fight a battle about something much more important to our family than money.
I would definitely not let ERE influence my choice to have or not have children. They are too awesome and people who without choice lived on less managed to work children into the equation.
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frugalady10
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:17 pm
Re: Kids on ERE
I am coming into this discussion late in the game, so forgive me if I repeat things already said. I was skimming through, and thought I would throw in my 2 cents.
To the original poster:
I don't think you need to be FI to have kids and still be able to enjoy them. If you have a partner who you are raising your children with, I think an Equally Shared Parenting set up is great(and what I am currently doing Google "equally shared parenting" or check the book out of the library.
Or, if you want to wait until you are over 30, that's fine too. I work in early education and I would say where I live most of the parents are over 40.
In response to another poster, I find it outrageous and slightly offensive that children take at least $2000/a month to raise. Some of us raising children only make that much per month and manage to make it work.
My husband and I had our first child when we were both in college and obviously broke but we managed to make it work. That's what you do.
Now, I work half time (20 hrs/week) and my husband is self employed. We have a good amount of savings and investments, so even though we are not FI we can weather a storm if need be. We will both take less work hours and spending less to spending time with our kid. And we both get to do that.
We don't have a swing set, we walk to the local park. We spend LOTS of time at the Free Public Library- which does run free camps in the summer, such as an awesome LEGO camp our son went too. We live in a place with a community association that has a pool included in the community dues. We spend a lot of time at the pool. My husband is a professional musician so no, we don't need to pay for music lessons, but in terms of art, swimming etc.- that is all things we do with him, and I don't think he is suffering because we aren't paying big bucks for "lessons."
I don't think he adds much to our monthly expenditures, we would be living in the same 900 square foot house, driving the same 10+ yr old sedans and spending the same amount of money if it were just us. So far he is happy and well adjusted and attends public school.
Oh, and we live in the Northeastern US , where there a high cost of living, and still manage to do it cheaply.
To the original poster:
I don't think you need to be FI to have kids and still be able to enjoy them. If you have a partner who you are raising your children with, I think an Equally Shared Parenting set up is great(and what I am currently doing
Google "equally shared parenting" or check the book out of the library.Or, if you want to wait until you are over 30, that's fine too. I work in early education and I would say where I live most of the parents are over 40.
In response to another poster, I find it outrageous and slightly offensive that children take at least $2000/a month to raise. Some of us raising children only make that much per month and manage to make it work.
My husband and I had our first child when we were both in college and obviously broke but we managed to make it work. That's what you do.
Now, I work half time (20 hrs/week) and my husband is self employed. We have a good amount of savings and investments, so even though we are not FI we can weather a storm if need be. We will both take less work hours and spending less to spending time with our kid. And we both get to do that.
We don't have a swing set, we walk to the local park. We spend LOTS of time at the Free Public Library- which does run free camps in the summer, such as an awesome LEGO camp our son went too. We live in a place with a community association that has a pool included in the community dues. We spend a lot of time at the pool. My husband is a professional musician so no, we don't need to pay for music lessons, but in terms of art, swimming etc.- that is all things we do with him, and I don't think he is suffering because we aren't paying big bucks for "lessons."
I don't think he adds much to our monthly expenditures, we would be living in the same 900 square foot house, driving the same 10+ yr old sedans and spending the same amount of money if it were just us. So far he is happy and well adjusted and attends public school.
Oh, and we live in the Northeastern US , where there a high cost of living, and still manage to do it cheaply.
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jennypenny
- Posts: 6910
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
Re: Kids on ERE
This is an article about Overprotected Kids, but it touches on treating kids as 'projects' and over-enriching them.
I love The Land -- very ERE-looking. It would make my Stepford neighbors' heads explode.
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/arc ... ne/358631/
I love The Land -- very ERE-looking. It would make my Stepford neighbors' heads explode.
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/arc ... ne/358631/
Re: Kids on ERE
Reminds me I need to get the 12-year old to stop playing with lighters in the house. I'm sending him to The Land.
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jennypenny
- Posts: 6910
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
Re: Kids on ERE
We’re destroying our kids — for nothing: Too much homework, too many tests, too much needless pressure
"Over the last couple of decades, I discovered, childhood has transformed into a performance. Not limited to the classroom or the ball field or the talent show stage, and knowing no socioeconomic or geographic boundaries, our collective focus on scores and numbers, awards and trophies, is robbing our kids of their childhoods, their health, and their happiness. This early experience with life-as-competition is shaping their nascent identities. Paradoxically, it’s also swindling them out of their inborn enthusiasm for learning, challenge, and growth, thus dimming the brightness of their futures."
...
"So, while it’s true that resilient children need to cope with risk and failure as a part of life, we’ve set up their childhoods as a destructive march to likely defeat. “Success” equates to attending the most prestigious college and then netting the big house and the high-paying job. Winning the education race, we’re told, is the way to get there. Rather than building their resilience, such a high-stakes education drives our children to chronic insecurity. Fear. Anxiety. Disconnection. Loneliness. Record rates of depression. And, as they get older, binge drinking, eating disorders, cutting, and even suicide. The clear message they hear from their environments is to produce, produce, produce at all costs, even if it means cheating, taking drugs, or working through the night to keep up.
The most painful irony is how badly out of step our frenzied educational practices are with science. Psychology and neuroscience journals abound with studies about how children learn and thrive, and how their brains grow, and none of it bears a remote resemblance to the spirit-crushing contest we’re putting our kids through."
"Over the last couple of decades, I discovered, childhood has transformed into a performance. Not limited to the classroom or the ball field or the talent show stage, and knowing no socioeconomic or geographic boundaries, our collective focus on scores and numbers, awards and trophies, is robbing our kids of their childhoods, their health, and their happiness. This early experience with life-as-competition is shaping their nascent identities. Paradoxically, it’s also swindling them out of their inborn enthusiasm for learning, challenge, and growth, thus dimming the brightness of their futures."
...
"So, while it’s true that resilient children need to cope with risk and failure as a part of life, we’ve set up their childhoods as a destructive march to likely defeat. “Success” equates to attending the most prestigious college and then netting the big house and the high-paying job. Winning the education race, we’re told, is the way to get there. Rather than building their resilience, such a high-stakes education drives our children to chronic insecurity. Fear. Anxiety. Disconnection. Loneliness. Record rates of depression. And, as they get older, binge drinking, eating disorders, cutting, and even suicide. The clear message they hear from their environments is to produce, produce, produce at all costs, even if it means cheating, taking drugs, or working through the night to keep up.
The most painful irony is how badly out of step our frenzied educational practices are with science. Psychology and neuroscience journals abound with studies about how children learn and thrive, and how their brains grow, and none of it bears a remote resemblance to the spirit-crushing contest we’re putting our kids through."
Re: Kids on ERE
It's really sad and ridiculous. For instance, I had to help teach a group of 5 year olds in the archaic technology of how to use a mouse with a computer, so that they could take a standardized test. They're all used to touch screens. And, I overheard one little girl say to another "My Mommy and Daddy love me because I practice my letters every day." OTOH, there are some very good teachers out there, and they aren't ignoring modern educational psychology. Much less time than in my youth is wasted on group-being-instructed-by-teacher activities, more independent learning is facilitated, and even though the children only officially get 20 minutes of recess, activities such as hopping, dancing and yoga are intermixed with the curriculum throughout the day.
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jennypenny
- Posts: 6910
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
Re: Kids on ERE
A big objection that gets voiced on the forum is that parents feel they will be denying their kids opportunities by raising them in ERE fashion. I don't agree, and think the article shows the dark side of treating children as projects instead of people. I posted the article to (hopefully) encourage people to raise their kids by ERE standards.