Marriage? With a sub-section for women marrying down

[Scott 2]

Never enter into a contract without understanding the termination clauses. That's common sense.

IMO the value of a pre-nup is it ensures the financial conversation actually happens prior to marriage. My wife and I had the conversation, considered a pre-nup, and found our finacial expectations were well aligned. They were also similar to the divorce laws in our state. No reason to spend thousands on our own custom contract.

Each party brings resources to the partnership. If you are the financial superior, your future spouse is bringing something else to balance it. Understand what that is and recognize it's going to be valued at the going market rate, should a divorce happen. It's easy to over-value your assets and under-value the assets held by the other party. IMO most bias complaints over family court stem from a mis-understanding of the market value of non-finacial assets. A woman's child bearing years are expensive.

For the right person, when one is ready for the partnership marriage entails, they'll be ok with the financial risk. This requires trusting deeply enough that you can be seriously hurt. The benefits are huge, but come with a loss of control. For an INTJ especially, that barrier can be almost insurmountable.

[SilverElephant]

@Spartan_Warrior

About "perceived gender bias in divorce court, the consequences of divorce on men and/or high net worth individuals, and strategies for mitigating those consequence":

After thinking about it for a while, I've come to this conclusion: We can all start looking for and quoting statistics about divorce rates, biases, alimony payments, etc. We will, depending on our sources, come up with different answers. The conclusion, I think, is in this analogy: if you were looking at a company and trying to decide whether to invest heavily in it, and you couldn't find a definitive information about it and you couldn't really understand the company, would you invest in it? I don't think so. Same with marriage, or rather, divorce: so the only winning move seems to be not to play.

I understand this is somewhat unsatisfying, but since the playing field is so absolutely confusing it seems to be the best idea for now.

A core problem seems to be the assumption (mainly held by women, in my experience) that marriage, i.e. committed pair-bonding, is a definitive value in itself. That's bull, in my opinion.

[Triangle]

A core problem seems to be the assumption (mainly held by women, in my experience) that marriage, i.e. committed pair-bonding, is a definitive value in itself. That's bull, in my opinion.

Agreed. Too much Cinderella fantasy in people's heads.

[Ego]

I know a guy who is a disaster news junkie. The gorier the better. He has a job where he interacts with tourists, many of whom are on their way overland into Mexico. When asked by these travelers what it is like in Mexico, he takes great pleasure in recounting the most spectacular stories of beheadings and acid-bath ransom demands, scaring them absolutely out of their minds.

Trouble is, despite the fact that he has lived in a border town for forty years and freely dispenses advice on what it is like "over there", he has never actually crossed the border to see Mexico for himself.

[Triangle]

What has Mexico to do with anything? What are you saying?

[secretwealth]

Sounds a lot like the people warning me that black neighborhoods are dangerous (without ever having lived in one) and that governments are oppressive thieving systems of enslavement (without ever having lived in a part of the world where there is no government).

I think the internet attracts radical positions based on fantasy over experience, very often white male American fantasies to boot, which leads to trainwrecks of egoism fully divorced from the actual experiences of history and reality.

[Spartan_Warrior]

You know what, you guys are right! I've been taking for granted that things like driving drunk and doing heroin had certain risks, too. But I guess I should try them myself before I'm permitted to draw any conclusions about risk, even though risk is, you know, a statistical issue, not a subjective one.

[secretwealth]

Getting married and living next to black people is literally doing heroin and driving drunk. Just like Obama is literally Hitler, the police are literally fascists, and governments are literally slave masters.

God bless the Internet.

[Spartan_Warrior]

Indeed, where people can twist your words into something completely different and consider it an effective argument.

[secretwealth]

Trust me, S_W, I'm not trying to make an effective argument in this thread--I have no argument to make here!

[CS]

The men in this thread are totally why I'm never getting married.

Please don't let these guys rob you of anything! There are some awesome men out there.

That being said, it is good to have an awareness of what you will not put up with, and what sorts of people to avoid.


@Scott 2 Thanks for the well stated post.

Actually, thank everyone for the discussion here. It has been good!

[GandK]

Too much Cinderella fantasy in people's heads.

At the risk of sounding like an anti-feminist, I have to agree.

Maybe it's because I've been divorced, and maybe it's because I'll be 40 soon. But I really don't see why Spartan's questions are so offensive. If you've worked hard for something and devoted years of your life to making it happen, whether it's a career or a nest egg or heck, marriage itself... why would you not try to protect that? It's only common sense. And since (statistically) most marriages do end in divorce, why can we not all say out loud - and without blame - that the financial threat Spartan describes is real?

No one goes into marriage thinking it's going to end. I didn't. But the reality is that every romantic relationship ends at some point, either in a breakup or in death. Logic says that both endings need to be accounted for, because there is a 100% chance that you will eventually find yourself facing either one or the other.

[secretwealth]

GandK: Sometimes it isn't what you say, but how you say it.

[CS]

@lilacorchid: I'm certainly bitter and jaded now,

And frankly you lost credibility when you said CS made good points. Every one of her posts in this thread struck me as rude, bitter, sexist/misandrist garbage of the highest order.

Have you not ever encountered someone with boundaries, who will bluntly state it how they see it? If this was a romantic comedy, I'd say that is exactly the person you need, much as you hate them at first. (I'm happily married so that is not an offer, just an observation).

There are lots of people are going out of their way to help you here, which I think you should appreciate.

[altoid]

@Spartan_Warrior and Triangle:

I seem to recall you mentioned that you are not attracted to women of your own age, and more interested in younger women?

Two things to consider for that scenario:

1. Women generally live longer than men. So if your future wife is 10 + years younger than you, does it mean she will be alone & old, let us say 50 years down the road?

2. Comparability in intimacy : let us say when you are in your 40s and your wife is in 30s.

So my personal opinion, is that the prime age for women is around 25+/-5, and for men is 35+/-5. It makes a good couple while a guy of 35 married a girl of 25. But what about 10 years down the road? 50 years?

[BecaS]

I really wasn't being glib when I shrugged and said, "Don't get married." (Goodness knows that I wasn't being brief.)

Marriage is marriage. It is, by its very design, intended to be the blending of two lives.

If you want a blender, buy a blender. Don't buy a blender and complain that it's not a mixer. Don't buy a blender and complain that it has sharp choppy blades as a part of its inherent design. *I know I know I know, BECA S WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? BLENDERS AND MIXERS? PLEASE BE ABSOLUTELY LITERAL AND HAVE UNIMPEACHABLE SOURCES OTHERWISE YOUR POINT IS MOOT.*

If you don't want to own a blender because blenders confound you, because you're afraid that if you stick your fingers too far down into the blender jar while the blender is in operation you'll get mangled fingers, then don't buy the blender.

Don't demand to own the blender and then complain because the inherent design flaws mean that sticking your fingers in the blades while the blender is in operate means that your fingers are going to get injured.

If you simply must have a blender, educate yourself about blenders. Read about the operation, risks and benefits of owning a blender. Educate yourself about its intended use. Treat the blender with respect, use it as it is designed to be used, take care of it, and don't do stupid things with it like sticking your fingers in the blades.

Some people buy blenders and own them for life. Some people really enjoy owning their blenders. Some people find that they couldn't care less about their blenders. Some people ignore their blenders. Some people complain that the blender takes up too much counter space or storage space and doesn't deliver on its promises.

Some people buy blenders and treat them poorly. The blenders break. Those people must either buy a new blender or do without. Either way, they are out the cost of the blender.

Some blenders are poorly designed and constructed. They break before they should. Unless you are one of the lucky few whose blender breaks under warranty (before you are responsible for the entire purchase price of the blender) then you are out the price of the blender.

If you don't want to take the risk that eventually your blender will break, thus defrauding you of the purchase price of the blender, then don't buy the blender.

If what you really want is a mixer, don't buy a blender.

You can give away your blender if you decide that it isn't for you. You can throw your blender in the trash can if you no longer want it. Either way, you are done with the blender, but you are still out of the purchase price.

If you insist on treating marriage as solely a financial contract, then treat it like buying A REALLY LARGE, EXPENSIVE BLENDER.

If blenders cause you a lot of anxiety, don't buy a blender. There are many other appliances available that will approximate the benefits provided by a blender, and they may cause you less anxiety. They may even be less expensive, or have less overall Total Cost of Ownership.

[BecaS]

^^ Beca S, channeling her inner Forrest Gump:

"Marriage is like a box of blenders..." *laughing at myself so you don't have to* (but go ahead and laugh anyway.)

[secretwealth]

I have not been reading this thread very closely and am breaking a promise to myself by getting involved, but bear with me; if men (I'm going to make this a general question to spare feelings) are worried about protecting their assets and are attracted to younger women, isn't the obvious answer for them to just stay unmarried and hire prostitutes?

[secretwealth]

@BecaS I may bill you for the damage your post caused to my computer when I spat out coffee laughing at it.

[BecaS]

Secret Wealth, that is part of the inherent design and risks of owning a blender. They may cause a misfire.

Can I interest you in a fine mixer? Many of them come with splash guards!