Antifragile

[secretwealth]

"What he is shooting for is a word that represents something that actually IMPROVES with stress."
Then it's not stress.

[jennypenny]

I guess we could argue about the nature of stress and pressure. Immersion therapy attempts to help people by exposing them to the very thing that stresses them. But does the person actually get stronger? Or do they just develop a tolerance so they don't feel the stress so acutely? Does the distinction matter?
@Hoplite--I think I just died a little inside.

[Felix]

Maybe weight training is a good example. You apply stress and your muscles do get sore, but they adapt to the stress and grow stronger.

[Ego]

@jennypenny, "Don't get me started on the misuse of language!"
When you wrote it I thought, "she can't mean ameliorate." Then I looked up ameliorate. Fortunately the dictionary told me that the mistake I made was common, so I didn't feel too dumb.
@bigato
Stress, abuse, injury.. is not a zero sum event. You can get hurt without a corresponding increase in a different ability. It is possible to improve without a corresponding loss. A good example is the hydra above where one is cut into three parts. Yet there are three hydras at the end of the stressful event.
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Before anti-depressants existed the Japanese considered depression an ennobling trial that helped to make the sufferer a stronger person. Then GlaxoSmithKline moved in to Tokyo and used marketing to teach them the western version where suffering is senseless.
When we think of the term "post-traumatic", what comes to mind? We've been trained to automatically think, "post-traumatic-stress-disorder." Yet most people who go through trauma experience Post Traumatic Growth. PTG is stress that brings about positive change.
Words are important because they are the tools we use to share our experiences and create shared visions. It is a good thing to encourage the use of a term that applies across a variety of fields and might change our automatic response from trauma=disorder to trauma=growth.
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I am first on the long list of holds for the book at my library and can't wait for it to arrive.

[jennypenny]

@Ego--I wasn't coming down on you (sorry if it came off that way). It's just a pet peeve of mine. I understand the meaning of words can change. But when one word's meaning changes to the point where it means the same as another word, you end up with two words that mean the same thing and an empty void in place of the original word. We lose a part of the language.
I agree with you about trauma producing positive results in many people, but I think people think they're supposed to have a negative outcome. If someone asks how you are while you are going through [illness, mourning, whatever] and you say "fine," they either don't believe you or think something is wrong with you because you're *not* suffering.

[Dragline]

@ Felix -- Yes, he lists hypertrophy as an example of antifragility with respect to the human body, along with hormesis.
You all be interested to know that in the "Financial Dependence" category, the antifragile examples are taxi drivers, artisans, prostitutes and those who possess "fuck-you money."

[secretwealth]

@Ego - I think it's worth pointing out that Japan has had and still has one of the highest suicide rates in the world, despite also having one of the best quality of life rankings in the world.

[aussierogue]

Just read this book - loved it. Loved the premise that living a simple life leeds to antifragility. ERE is imo a great antifragile strategy.
EG i do some part time work teaching (6 hours per week) - the eduaction sector here in Australia has taken a battering and everyone in the instute here is getting the sack. People are literally falling apart and the stress is evident. Yet the drop in work doesnt worry me because I have 4 forms of income and only teach because it gives me some spare cash, allows me to interect with people and keeps my foot in the door for a career don the track should i wish to re eneter the work force.
Got me thinking that I have never seen any change in my employment circumstances as a problem. For some reason this part of my life has been antifragile as i have been able to psychologically and strategically avoid putting too much emphasis on a 'career' that defines me. anyway i think this perfectly defines intifragility and is different to being resilient or adaptive which I see more as a situational responce to something that happens in the moment.
I think I also like taleb because I too was a wall st derivatives broker (director) who sees the benefits of soft stories that improve technical academic type ideas. Who better to understand risk and fragility than someone who played the markets - probably not an academic who has spent 20 years in school gaining a phd who idea of risk is deciding whether to wear red or white socks with blue jeans.

[Chad]

Glad you liked it, as I'm only 1 or 2 people away from getting the audio book at my library. It is rather popular. 10 or 12 people were ahead of me when I got on the list.

[jennypenny]

Does Taleb read the audiobook? That would be worth renting even though I read the book.

[Chad]

I have no idea. I hope not. Most authors aren't very interesting readers. There really is a performance piece to doing an audio book.

[jennypenny]

He doesn't, I just checked. I would have enjoyed it though since I've already read the book. I can't imagine him sticking to the text. Can't you picture him going off on one tangent after another? It would end up being a 47-hour audiobook

[Chad]

Yeah, he definitely appears to be the classic crazy professor.

[Chad]

Ok, finished the book. Well, I finished as much of it as I'm ever going to, which is about 3/4's of the way with some of that skipped. It's just not worth finishing. Decent refresher on some risk ideas and shines a nice light on the idea of antifragility, which is really just a new name for a type of robustness. Unfortunately, the guy is unbelievably biased and almost gives you no numbers, so you are basically relaying on his narrative being correct.

He bends and contorts everything, and I mean everything, to fit his rather narrow theory. This doesn't mean his ideas are bad or even wrong all the time, but his theory is not the all knowing answer to everything in the world he so desperately wants you to believe.

On top of all that, the guy is a bombastic ass, who comes across as bad as the academics he criticizes.

Read the first few chapters, but when it gets tiresome shut it for good and go read something else.

[workathome]

But the last 1/4 is the best!

[jennypenny]

The Art of Manliness wrote about Antifragile this month...
http://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/12/0 ... tifragile/

Is antifragility really seen as a 'manly' trait?

[Seneca]

Is antifragility really seen as a 'manly' trait?

That article talks about prepping and such.

If we must discuss stereotypes, in a typecast industrial era nuclear family, yes, I think the man would be considered the leader for these kinds of activities.

My depression era great grandmother could've put on a clinic most modern men would've learned a ton from though, so please don't think I'm saying man is more adept or more intrinsically designed to think that way. Just observing who is more likely to buy/read Jim Rawles books.

[jennypenny]

Dragline posted this podcast in the Zero to One thread. Anyone who likes Antifragile will enjoy it.

http://askaltucher.com/nassim/