amazing to me how many Americans say "yes, tax me. Take my money and use it for corrupt purposes".
I've never understood how an idiot can support higher taxes when EVERY DAY we see how corrupt and inept our federal, state, city governments really are.
They are already stealing our money and wasting it. Yet, some of you say "yes, take more of my money".
They already get about 50% of our money when you add ALL TAXES and fees up.
Amazing how people become conditioned to be slaves and they willingly support their own slavery/exploitation.
Has ERE changed your political outlook?
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George the original one
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- Location: Wettest corner of Orygun
Careful tylerrr, lets keep it civil. Many of these so called idiots are members of this forum and, likely smarter than you or me.
50% is definitely an exaggeration for the vast majority of the population. Remember, 47% of Americans don't even pay federal income tax :-p
And zero people are asking for their money to be used for corrupt purposes. The sad fact is that the money has already been spent - mostly under republican control. Some of us just want to keep this republican debt in check without slashing social services and sending the economy into depression.
50% is definitely an exaggeration for the vast majority of the population. Remember, 47% of Americans don't even pay federal income tax :-p
And zero people are asking for their money to be used for corrupt purposes. The sad fact is that the money has already been spent - mostly under republican control. Some of us just want to keep this republican debt in check without slashing social services and sending the economy into depression.
Actually, I think 50% is understating the cost.
http://costofgovernment.org/cost-government-report-a98
"In 2011, Cost of Government Day falls on August 12. Working people must toil 224 days out of the year just to meet all costs imposed by government, a full 27 days longer than 2008.
In other words, in 2011 the cost of government consumes 61.42 percent of national income."
Then it would be hard or impossible to put a dollar value on the some of the unintended consequences of government meddling.
@dragon: Must we start playing the D vs R game?... BOTH have their fingerprints all over the debt.
http://costofgovernment.org/cost-government-report-a98
"In 2011, Cost of Government Day falls on August 12. Working people must toil 224 days out of the year just to meet all costs imposed by government, a full 27 days longer than 2008.
In other words, in 2011 the cost of government consumes 61.42 percent of national income."
Then it would be hard or impossible to put a dollar value on the some of the unintended consequences of government meddling.
@dragon: Must we start playing the D vs R game?... BOTH have their fingerprints all over the debt.
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jennypenny
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We're over 40% just with fed, state, and payroll taxes. Throw in sales tax and local taxes (varies with DH's travel) and the $9K we pay in real estate taxes and we must be well over 50%.
It doesn't make us idiots though. Sure, I get really angry when I hear people at the soup kitchen bragging about "sharing" kids with family in PA so they can get more in food stamps. It makes me want to improve the system and weed out the cheats, but I don't want to give up on the program. It benefits too many honest people who need assistance. I feel that way about a lot of government programs.
It doesn't make us idiots though. Sure, I get really angry when I hear people at the soup kitchen bragging about "sharing" kids with family in PA so they can get more in food stamps. It makes me want to improve the system and weed out the cheats, but I don't want to give up on the program. It benefits too many honest people who need assistance. I feel that way about a lot of government programs.
tylerr and johnnyh, please elaborate on specific taxes to which you refer. I'll check out that site later when I have time, but if you are going to include a bunch of ephemeral costs like "regulation", then you need to subtract out the ephemeral benefits like "roads" and "food that doesn't give you cancer."
Ok, I don't know what your incomes are. But here's an example (using paycheckcity.com).
You make $500k/year, filing married. You pay:
Federal Withholding $139,974.50
Social Security $4,624.20
Medicare $7,250.00
California $45,477.66
SDI $955.85
Net pay is $301,717.79, so you've paid a whopping 39.6% of your income.
Sales tax could bump you near 50%.
Real estate... well if I have a very expensive house and no job, then you could say I'm being "taxed" over 100%. But as a percent of the home value, the tax is tiny, and it's deductible from the above.
So does one of you really make that much?
You make $500k/year, filing married. You pay:
Federal Withholding $139,974.50
Social Security $4,624.20
Medicare $7,250.00
California $45,477.66
SDI $955.85
Net pay is $301,717.79, so you've paid a whopping 39.6% of your income.
Sales tax could bump you near 50%.
Real estate... well if I have a very expensive house and no job, then you could say I'm being "taxed" over 100%. But as a percent of the home value, the tax is tiny, and it's deductible from the above.
So does one of you really make that much?
Ok, I don't know what your incomes are. But here's an example (using paycheckcity.com).
You make $500k/year, filing married. You pay:
Federal Withholding $139,974.50
Social Security $4,624.20
Medicare $7,250.00
California $45,477.66
SDI $955.85
Net pay is $301,717.79, so you've paid a whopping 39.6% of your income.
Sales tax could bump you near 50%.
Real estate... well if I have a very expensive house and no job, then you could say I'm being "taxed" over 100%. But as a percent of the home value, the tax is tiny, and it's deductible from the above.
So does one of you really make that much?
You make $500k/year, filing married. You pay:
Federal Withholding $139,974.50
Social Security $4,624.20
Medicare $7,250.00
California $45,477.66
SDI $955.85
Net pay is $301,717.79, so you've paid a whopping 39.6% of your income.
Sales tax could bump you near 50%.
Real estate... well if I have a very expensive house and no job, then you could say I'm being "taxed" over 100%. But as a percent of the home value, the tax is tiny, and it's deductible from the above.
So does one of you really make that much?
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jennypenny
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George the original one
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- Location: Wettest corner of Orygun
No doubt it's a lot of money (and you get a lot of services in return), but I'm getting tired of the hyperbole on these forums (you guys aren't that bad, but the PP forum is getting insane).
I'm technically the 1%, and even I don't pay anywhere near 50% on my earned income. Filing single, without the use of elaborate tax shelters, offshore bank accounts, etc. Even if you add in my employer's payroll taxes. Even if you include imputed taxes on the studio I rent (based on estimated property value, it probably costs my landlord 2% of my salary).
You want to reduce corruption and wasteful spending -- great, we all do. But that's a completely separate issue from maintaining revenue. If you want to "starve the beast," this is what you are going to get:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07 ... ankruptcy/
The government had debt, and the citizens would not approve the tax increases to maintain it. Of course, it's better to avoid this debt in the first place, but unfortunately there's no funding for the time machine. After bankruptcy, those same citizens found their home values slashed, crime rampant, friends wouldn't visit them because they were scared to drive down the streets. Local businesses failed (no, they didn't hire a private police force, they moved to a city with a functioning government). I guess that sounds like Paradise to the preppers in the audience.
I'm technically the 1%, and even I don't pay anywhere near 50% on my earned income. Filing single, without the use of elaborate tax shelters, offshore bank accounts, etc. Even if you add in my employer's payroll taxes. Even if you include imputed taxes on the studio I rent (based on estimated property value, it probably costs my landlord 2% of my salary).
You want to reduce corruption and wasteful spending -- great, we all do. But that's a completely separate issue from maintaining revenue. If you want to "starve the beast," this is what you are going to get:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07 ... ankruptcy/
The government had debt, and the citizens would not approve the tax increases to maintain it. Of course, it's better to avoid this debt in the first place, but unfortunately there's no funding for the time machine. After bankruptcy, those same citizens found their home values slashed, crime rampant, friends wouldn't visit them because they were scared to drive down the streets. Local businesses failed (no, they didn't hire a private police force, they moved to a city with a functioning government). I guess that sounds like Paradise to the preppers in the audience.
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jennypenny
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- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
@dragoncar--I'm really not trying to pick a fight. But think of my typical stepford neighbor...
Annual Gross Pay $200,000.00
Federal Withholding $41,511.00
Social Security $4,624.20
Medicare $2,900.00
Pennsylvania $6,140.00
SUI $160.00
Net Pay $144,664
Which is about $56K in taxes. Don't forget to add $2K for the SSI increase next year. Now if it were us, add in $9K real estate (almost the lowest in town since our house is so small; some friends pay almost $20K), local employment tax for our town, city and state taxes in the cities where DH works (averages 5%), my self-employment taxes for my editing work, and now you're near $80K. DH even pays $100/year employee tax to the town where his home office is even though he hasn't been there in two years!
If you want to get nitpicky, add in sales taxes and all those stupid taxes on the phone bill, cable bill, water bill, and power bill. How about all of the taxes you pay every time you fly? Rent a car? Rent a hotel room?
I'm not saying my typical Stepford neighbor should be crying poor, but 40-50% in taxes is a lot of money on what's considered a middle-class income in our area.
@George--I know, it's ridiculous. And what makes us even more stupid is that we send our kids to Catholic school, so we essentially pay $7K in school taxes for a bus.
Annual Gross Pay $200,000.00
Federal Withholding $41,511.00
Social Security $4,624.20
Medicare $2,900.00
Pennsylvania $6,140.00
SUI $160.00
Net Pay $144,664
Which is about $56K in taxes. Don't forget to add $2K for the SSI increase next year. Now if it were us, add in $9K real estate (almost the lowest in town since our house is so small; some friends pay almost $20K), local employment tax for our town, city and state taxes in the cities where DH works (averages 5%), my self-employment taxes for my editing work, and now you're near $80K. DH even pays $100/year employee tax to the town where his home office is even though he hasn't been there in two years!
If you want to get nitpicky, add in sales taxes and all those stupid taxes on the phone bill, cable bill, water bill, and power bill. How about all of the taxes you pay every time you fly? Rent a car? Rent a hotel room?
I'm not saying my typical Stepford neighbor should be crying poor, but 40-50% in taxes is a lot of money on what's considered a middle-class income in our area.
@George--I know, it's ridiculous. And what makes us even more stupid is that we send our kids to Catholic school, so we essentially pay $7K in school taxes for a bus.
@jennypenny,
"If you want to get nitpicky, add in sales taxes and all those stupid taxes on the phone bill, cable bill, water bill, and power bill. How about all of the taxes you pay every time you fly? Rent a car? Rent a hotel room?"
It's not being nitpicky....This is my point.
Those ARE taxes also...
This is the deal. 99% of the population doesn't figure in all of these ways different governments have learned to nickel and dime you to death. 99% of the people don't even realize they are being fleeced to death and they just go along with the program out of pure ignorance.
It is 50% or over when you add up all of this stuff.
it's theft. Don't tell me we get enough legitimate services out of our wonderful, honest, upstanding governments. They wouldn't be corrupt would they?
Don't forget freeway poll fees, and all the B.S. taxes you pay on hotel stays.
"If you want to get nitpicky, add in sales taxes and all those stupid taxes on the phone bill, cable bill, water bill, and power bill. How about all of the taxes you pay every time you fly? Rent a car? Rent a hotel room?"
It's not being nitpicky....This is my point.
Those ARE taxes also...
This is the deal. 99% of the population doesn't figure in all of these ways different governments have learned to nickel and dime you to death. 99% of the people don't even realize they are being fleeced to death and they just go along with the program out of pure ignorance.
It is 50% or over when you add up all of this stuff.
it's theft. Don't tell me we get enough legitimate services out of our wonderful, honest, upstanding governments. They wouldn't be corrupt would they?
Don't forget freeway poll fees, and all the B.S. taxes you pay on hotel stays.
Don't even get me started on 200k being middle class.
You're adding state taxes from multiple states? I've filed jointly before, and you shouldn't get double taxed. Don't forget that the property taxes are deductible. The nitpicky taxes are de minimis, unless you are really living the jet-set lifestyle. Here are my ATT taxes:
Government Fees and Taxes
10. CA Advanced Services Fund (CASF) 0.01
11. CHCF A 0.03
12. CHCF B 0.02
13. Relay Service Device Fund 0.01
14. State 911 Tax 0.05
15. Teleconnect Fund 0.01
16. Universal Lifeline 0.08
Total Government Fees and Taxes 0.21
It sounds like your family is quite exceptional -- self-employment taxes, multiple local taxes from different jurisdictions, etc.
I don't doubt that some people can get up to around 50% total. But it's not easy, and certainly not typical.
Edit: Especially for an EREista... I mean $15/roundtrip flight and $5/hotel night adds up to about... $40/year?? Plus the $3/year for my phone. This is so utterly insignificant compared to the base cost to fly or hotel or read webcomics on my phone.
You're adding state taxes from multiple states? I've filed jointly before, and you shouldn't get double taxed. Don't forget that the property taxes are deductible. The nitpicky taxes are de minimis, unless you are really living the jet-set lifestyle. Here are my ATT taxes:
Government Fees and Taxes
10. CA Advanced Services Fund (CASF) 0.01
11. CHCF A 0.03
12. CHCF B 0.02
13. Relay Service Device Fund 0.01
14. State 911 Tax 0.05
15. Teleconnect Fund 0.01
16. Universal Lifeline 0.08
Total Government Fees and Taxes 0.21
It sounds like your family is quite exceptional -- self-employment taxes, multiple local taxes from different jurisdictions, etc.
I don't doubt that some people can get up to around 50% total. But it's not easy, and certainly not typical.
Edit: Especially for an EREista... I mean $15/roundtrip flight and $5/hotel night adds up to about... $40/year?? Plus the $3/year for my phone. This is so utterly insignificant compared to the base cost to fly or hotel or read webcomics on my phone.
@dragoncar,
since you and other tax happy leftists are so adamant about this...
Why don't you write more checks to the Federal Treasury? Please volunteer more of your money since you don't think we're all taxed enough.
Do you volunteer more of your money to your local government? I'm sure you could even create some more helpful programs with your own money if you think it's so important for people to pay more money to various governments.
since you and other tax happy leftists are so adamant about this...
Why don't you write more checks to the Federal Treasury? Please volunteer more of your money since you don't think we're all taxed enough.
Do you volunteer more of your money to your local government? I'm sure you could even create some more helpful programs with your own money if you think it's so important for people to pay more money to various governments.
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jennypenny
- Posts: 6910
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
>>Don't even get me started on 200k being middle class.
Haha, I know, right? Welcome to the Megolopolis. (I did say "what's considered middle-class") I'm guessing about the $200K figure being average in Stepford, but since teachers here have an average salary above $100K, I think it's probably right for married filing jointly. And I'm calculating taxes for $200K based on how we're taxed on our level of income, but about half of the people I know in town work in NJ or Manhattan so their tax bill is even higher.
It just seems like so much money to me.
I don't know how you change things though. I nod my head when people talk about reforming things like Social Security, but honestly I don't want it to go away. None of my family is prepared for their retirement, so if SSI goes away I'll be the first place they come with their hand out. No thanks. I think I'd rather they were the government's problem. I guess that makes me a libertarian hypocrite.
Haha, I know, right? Welcome to the Megolopolis. (I did say "what's considered middle-class") I'm guessing about the $200K figure being average in Stepford, but since teachers here have an average salary above $100K, I think it's probably right for married filing jointly. And I'm calculating taxes for $200K based on how we're taxed on our level of income, but about half of the people I know in town work in NJ or Manhattan so their tax bill is even higher.
It just seems like so much money to me.
I don't know how you change things though. I nod my head when people talk about reforming things like Social Security, but honestly I don't want it to go away. None of my family is prepared for their retirement, so if SSI goes away I'll be the first place they come with their hand out. No thanks. I think I'd rather they were the government's problem. I guess that makes me a libertarian hypocrite.
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Spartan_Warrior
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Spartan_Warrior
- Posts: 1659
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Personally, I don't think the government needs to spend any more, but I sure as hell think the tax code is pandering and regressive, and the wealthy need to pay more of the total *percentage* of government revenue. Not that the government needs to collect more revenue overall. Big difference. In fact, I would prefer both drastically less spending, especially in empire-building, in combination with progressive taxation.
I would add that this thread seems on the verge of falling into exactly the sort of "fanatical, religious" divisiveness I mentioned earlier. I would love to have a political discussion that doesn't always, at some point, involve "you liberals" and "you conservatives" being thrown around. I'm an American citizen with an opinion, thank you.
I would add that this thread seems on the verge of falling into exactly the sort of "fanatical, religious" divisiveness I mentioned earlier. I would love to have a political discussion that doesn't always, at some point, involve "you liberals" and "you conservatives" being thrown around. I'm an American citizen with an opinion, thank you.