Little World

J_ · Post by J_ » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:57 pm

One of us remarked recently there were, relatively seen, so many Dutch people on the Forum. Perhaps that's right. And I hope it does not matter so much.
At this very moment I have a brother iL traveling in Idaho, writing from his Ipad to us, an other close member of my family, living in Germany, hops today by plane to South Africa. My daughter is on holiday on Siscilly, Italy for 4 weeks, my sister and her family lives in Australia. My uncle lived for decades in Portland Oregon.

The world is so small.
I feel connected to the US. I am glad there is now a very bright young President (and first Lady). Not only for his (and her) intentions but also for his eloquency I listen to his weekly adresses and speaches abroad presented by your presidential www.
I see the US as a follow up from Portugal/Spain, the Netherlands (founding New Amsterdam now Manhattan) France (from Montreal Canada to New Orleans) later Great Brittan from which the people freed themselves.
And with Jacob from nearby (3 hours train) Danemark, we (forum) are all more or less united in an ERE view how to live well.
It is wonderful to hear from Christopher from Mexico City how he manages with very few financial means to find his ere-way. And so I can mention others as well, from Canada to Brazil.
All we try to escape the spending habits, so common now by you Americans, but the same here in Holland and other countries. All to become more or less free from the automatic way of life of working and earning, spending so again working and earning. And taking no time off to think of what we are doiing and time off to enjoy life in all aspects, even sometimes in working for money.
The technical financial discussions gravitate around the american tax and retiring system. That's practical for most forum readers.

But the main threads are very useful on an international level.
To me it cannot be international enough.

Dragline · Post by **Dragline** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:57 pm

Just knowing how other people live in other places opens up many possibilities. Americans still don't look outside their box enough (via travel or otherwise), but I think that is changing, particularly as more people look to the internet as their primary source of information, as opposed to their local and national news outlets. I am lucky to have been able to travel widely on someone else's dime.
Forums like this reinforce the idea that there are more commonalities than differences.
I was in the Netherlands in June and it was cold and wet. It reminded me of the famous line erroneously attributed to Mark Twain -- "The coldest winter I ever saw was a summer I spent in San Francisco." I suppose you could say the same about many places.

GandK · Post by **GandK** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:01 pm

A lot of the criticism of Americans for "not traveling" - especially by Europeans - is unfair. If you look at the number of miles traveled per person, rather than the number of countries they've been to, you start to get a clearer picture. A US citizen traveling to France is not the same as a German citizen traveling to France. It's not the fault of Americans that we live in a physically massive nation with only two bordering countries, most of which are hundreds (or even thousands) of miles away from most of us. Becoming more cosmopolitan requires passports and hours of expensive airline travel. We can't just get up one Saturday morning, waltz into a station and hop on a train to Milan.

aussierogue · Post by **aussierogue** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:23 pm

I am an aussie but i have Dutch Heritage and carry a very Dutch name..the 'Van........type"
And GandK - agree with that. I actually dont know a nation of people who move so much....firstly for university and then to find jobs. Sure its within the USA but still its moving away from family and friends.

aussierogue · Post by **aussierogue** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:50 pm

oh yeh......the dutch have akways had a reputation for being tight with their money....so no surprise here! Wish there were a few more Greeks on the boards...

Chad · Post by **Chad** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:20 pm

@J

"And I hope it does not matter so much."
Actually, I think it does matter. I (an American) really like the fact that there are a lot of non-Americans on here. The more the merrier.
The different views due to culture, geography, etc. from a population (blog) that is far more rational than the general population are something I look forward too.
It would be great if we could get some Chinese, Russians, and Japanese on here, as it seems we have covered most of the other major economies.
@GandK

Agreed. North America is rather isolated.
"with only two bordering countries"
And, one of those two countries is Canada, which has a very similar culture. Hell, I can remember going there and we didn't need a passport.
@aussie

Yeah, a lot of moving. I'm in Washington, DC, a 4 hour drive from family and have some close friends who are moving to the other coast (California) in 6-8 months.

JohnnyH · Post by **JohnnyH** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:25 pm

European perceptions on US presidents is baffling... BHO and GWB have nearly identical foreign policies. One is a war criminal, but the other wins nobel prize? 0_o

J_ · Post by J_ » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:49 pm

@JohnnyH I did not use those words you put on your last presidents, not even by implication.
My remark comes not from a view of mine about foreign policies, or inland policies, which are not important in this forum.

It comes from my feeling that he is a pure human, which one so seldom see in presidents or prime ministers. Americans can be proud having such a person.

jennypenny · Post by **jennypenny** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:09 pm

@J-I understand that is Obama's reputation in other countries. It's just funny to some of us. He's a Chicago politician. Chicago politicians are not famous for being "pure." That's all. Many here feel as you do. But I'll +1 JohnnyH.
DH has the "Americans never travel" argument frequently with his friend from Germany. I think Klaus finally understood when DH explained he could drive for 6 hours and still be in Pennsylvania.

aussierogue · Post by **aussierogue** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:49 pm

As an outsider the difference bwteen Bush and Obama is stark - and this perception probably has very little to do with foreign policy. In most foreigners eyes Bush has done more to lower the prestige of the American Presidency then any other president before him...by a mile.
And watching the pre selection of his co-horts has done very little to improve (in my mind anyway) the reputation of the current crop of conservative politicians as less than 'intellectual'. I would describe it more as a circus.
I think the issue for many politicians in the usa and abroad is that the world is now so well informed (due to technology) that people cant get away with what they did before.
If someone is having affairs - we hear about it on twitter quickly. If someone flies to Europe and proceeds to go from one faux pas to another - the workds hears about it quicky.
Twitter, forums, facebook allows for instant feedback and groundswell.
Its a tough gig being a politian...

jennypenny · Post by **jennypenny** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:31 pm

I guess it depends on what a person thinks lowers the prestige of someone. Bush seemed like a breath of fresh air after the endless discussion of debris Clinton managed to leave on an intern's dress

My point was that they're all politicians--Obama included. I find it curious that he's considered somehow different. Even comedians won't touch him. In all my life, I've never seen a sitting president who wasn't routinely spoofed or satirized by comedians. I understood in the beginning because of the added aspect of his race. But four years later and still nothing? It seems a little dangerous to me if we idolize too much and are unable to poke fun at something or someone.

dragoncar · Post by **dragoncar** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:32 am

Jenny, nobody will satirize him because he has taken the position that he can order the assassination of any person, US citizen or not.

JohnnyH · Post by **JohnnyH** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:31 am

I'm just going to say it... The only reason I can think of why EU/AU types gush over Obama is racism. He's black, therefore he is good. This insignificant detail seems to overload their sensors, blinding them to reality.

Bleh, I hope someday we can get over race.
Before we go there, I think Bush was probably the worst president in US history... The only interesting thing about the Obama presidency is how staggering little CHANGEd.

Chad · Post by **Chad** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:17 am

It's more than just race. Sure there is some "they are growing as a people because he is black" going on in other countries. However, it doesn't hurt that he can speak in complete sentences and seems at least smarter than your dog. All a step up from our prior president, who destroyed my vision of what we are as a people. It's a shame Obama didn't live up to his promise.
The Nobel prize was given to Obama, not because of Obama, but to give the middle finger to Bush. Yes, both could be considered for war crimes (torture). By the way, a great drama that does a good job of highlighting the potential benefits and pitfalls of torture is Unthinkable with Sam Jackson. It's really well done.
@Jennypenny

I would love to have Slick Willy back. He and Bush 1 were the only quality presidents in my life time....sadly.

aussierogue · Post by **aussierogue** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:56 am

I am generally a green / left of centre voter but i have voted conservative on occassions. So i am no means a true believer who only thinks left of centre. Each presidential election I look forward to what the USA can throw up in terms of conservative politicians - hoping for someone who is deaper than the water in jakuzzi. I still cant believe that these guys are the best and brightest that the USA has to offer. Infact I know its not the truth. There is something critically wrong about the process by which you guys select a president and governing party. Goes way too long, costs too much money and it just doesnt seem to get the desired outcomes.
I actually have little comment to make regarding the policies of either Obama or Bush jnr. And yes the timing was right to have a liberal minded black president....all accepted. I just wanted our world leaders to 'appear' competent....i dont mind being fooled....heck i get fooled everyday!

JohnnyH · Post by **JohnnyH** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:59 am

@Chad: haha!, fair assessment... I cannot forget the effectiveness of empty rhetoric.

However, I would say the nobel prize only managed to embarrass and discredit itself. But if Bush II was injured, that would be a plus.

Post by **jacob** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:21 am

Internationally GWB was considered dangerous to global security due to unilaterally breaking international laws both in letter and spirit. I suspect a lot of this originated in the Project for a New American Century which was signed by a lot of the Bush administration members. Usually a good exercise when reading such statements is to substitute American with French, German, Chinese, or Soviet or whatever other country... and see if it still sounds good.
Now, whereas this NAC project sees or saw the US as the center of a new global empire, the rest of the world saw and sees the world more as something run by democratic principles through the UN, EU, the World Court, and other agreements. All of these were established to prevent war, so it kinda ruins things when someone begins to start wars with very little justification. Wars that many intelligent people predicted would drag out forever because Bush didn't understand what he was getting himself into. So there was a competency issue too.
So Obama got the peace prize (and a lot of goodwill) simply for not being GWB and for promising a return to normality, that is, a leader of the largest military force in the world that the international community once again could reason with according to established principles. Note, it doesn't really matter that Obama is doing the same things, because now he does it with approval of the int. community, more or less.
PS: Skin color hasn't been an issue in Europe for over a hundred years. Such things (like abortion, intern affairs, and being gay) are considered private matters. It would be undignified to bring them into the political realm.

aussierogue · Post by **aussierogue** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:28 am

I think its interesting how many here are using sensible almost scientific rhetoric as to why Obama is seen and better than Bush internationally and making an arguement as to why this is the case. And yet those who are openly critical of GWB jnr are not 'getting scientific' at all. We just think he is a buffoon. I think we overestimate the lines of thinking of the average consumer / voter - sure there ar eplenty of reasons but can't it just be as simple as the guy appearing 'not smart enuf' like Sarah palin and now many of the current crop.

Post by **jacob** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:33 am

To return from the US presidents to the OP topic at hand ... what's evident here [in this global village] is that the world does care who the US president is because the US president is the leader of the current global empire (even if only Americans get to vote). Hence, the world would like to see someone who is able to act with the dignity the position deserves ("Now watch this drive!") and with enough responsibility to handle the power the position holds.
As a fun exercise (or to cut to the bone of the matter), imagine aliens landed on Earth. Who would you prefer to send to meet with them? Obama, Biden, Romney, Ryan, McCain, Palin, GWB, or Cheney?

Dragline · Post by **Dragline** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:37 am

"I'm just going to say it... The only reason I can think of why EU/AU types gush over Obama is racism. He's black, therefore he is good."
So, if Hillary Clinton were to have won the nomination and the 2008 election, what would be the reason then that non-Americans like her? Women are better than men? Hairstyle maybe?
If you talked to a few of these people you make these assumptions about, you might learn some reasons that you are currently unable or unwilling to think of. I will give you a clue: Foreigner's opinions of US presidents often have more to do with their perception about whether the US will commence a war or not under their leadership than what they look like.
As for satires of Obama, there are many and some are quite amusing like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlOIy6QEbes Of course, its only been viewed about 7 million times. Search "Obama parody" if you would like to see some more of them.
There are many reasons why Obama has been a disappointment and has not delivered what he advertised, but "unfair racism" and "unfair idolization", while cheap and popular, are not very high on the list of legitimate criticisms. Paradoxically, I think that the more people say such things, the more his supporters are mobilized to re-elect him. Such is the world of politics.
Of course, most of you are too young to remember Nixon, Ford and Carter . . .