Low Income, Early 20s, Anti-Wage-Slave Living: Walwen's Journal

[Scott 2]

Have you experimented with Zenni glasses?

I had a relatively complex prescription from the opthalmologist. Bifocals. Prism. They were going to be upwards of $1000. I ditched the bifocal and used an online calculator to convert the Rx to optometrist format. Under $50 via Zenni.

I later had them tested at the opthalmologist. As Rx'd. Good thing too, because the updated script didn't help my problem.

[ertyu]

About the side hustle, if you pursue it: make it pilates-related, imo. Idk if that would look like [pilates for X condition] videos (to tickle your youtuber thing) or what, but my intuition is it would work well if you were to press there

[delay]

Thanks for your journal update!

You get the 6% if you choose the slower delivery option.

Why weigh 6% cheaper against slower delivery? It's better to weigh buying it against other uses you have for the money, or against the hours you have to work to afford it. Credit cards fill your mind with all the wrong options.

How I do it is that I put 400/mo into my HYSA, and I just look at numbers in the HYSA and decide if I can spend X amount of money. It works, but I think it’s the most immature part of my financial strategy. I just decide if I can spend the money with my eyeballs looking at a number.

If you are unhappy with fixating on one thing, like buying it or not, you can upgrade by splitting your decision. Weigh it against two numbers, like "hours worked to earn this" versus "feeling of having the purchased item one month from now".

Having moved from fixation (one) to weighing (two), you can further upgrade to a grayscale. Add options like "delay purchase", "buy second hand", "solve problem without spending' and evaluate them against your mental state, relationships, health, and so on.

very single week at the MTG event, 3 of them will bring entire feasts from fast food restaurants, and they mention eating out seemingly everyday or multiple times a day. When new card sets come out, they talk about buying 200 dollar gambling-esqe boxes of cards, and then talk about how broke they are because of it.

Buying food for friends is not a bad use of money. You could look back at that and be happy.

It looks like there were four new magic sets in 2024. If you buy a booster box for each you spend $800 a year. One can reasonably spend $800 a year on mental agility, joy from competition or companionship.

The normal thing to do is spend $800 on a car per month, and then laugh about how irresponsible MTG players are. Heh.

[Walwen]

Happy Easter! I am done being the bunny at the mall (it would be very odd if I wasn’t.) Happily enough- on the very last day, I learned a photographer plays MTG and we exchanged contact info. I have almost certainly seen him at Commander nights before, but by coincidence our usual spots are exactly across the building from each other! I made about 600, take-home pay. Not bad for 6 days of work!

I am in the small group pilates and it’s great, and the price is too. But it is me and two old ladies and I feel out of place. However, I knew my teacher taught at the Y, but I did not know it was such a regular and large group- It’s a 30 max class and apparently has about 20 regulars, and often fills up. I figure they can’t ALL be retired women.

The general plan in my head is to go pilates > weightlifting > BJJ. I have been going to the gym 2 or 3x a week for a while now, but surprisingly I already feel dissatisfied with the quality of the place. I thought it would take me longer to “outgrow” the purple one, but the lockers can’t even fit a mat, they don’t have a good area to do pilates, the staff are always stoned and standoffish, and it smells weird and the bathrooms are unhygienic. If I just wanted to use a treadmill for an hour I think it would be alright, but I spend over 5hrs each week at the gym and I’m ready for an upgrade. So I think I will join the Y.

Bizarrely enough I’ve been getting more and more into piano, just for pleasure, and I realized that my YMCA also offers pretty affordable piano lessons. There is also a reputable BJJ studio in town, with direct lineage to the Gracies and all the other things you want to see in a BJJ place, but I am not ready yet. Don’t tell my buddy, but he hasn’t been serious at all about saving to go on vacation with me again like we did before. Not his fault, it’s hard to plan that stuff. I was saving, but I recently decided that it’s money for instructors now.

I am kinda lacking on the long-term goals department. I feel increasing desires to have a “real career” and “real education” but due to my health and life situation, I just think it would be a terrible idea to try to do anything like go back to college or make any other large commitments right now. I also had such a bad experience at university, I feel really picky inside- if I go back to college I want to make a lot of different choices. It would probably involve moving, basically. And moving isn’t in the picture right now. However, like I’ve probably discussed before, I will go insane if I sit on my hands waiting for my immediate family to die. It’s not the right choice.

So, it come back to Anti-Wage-Slave Living. I could live like a bum and just eat my grandfather’s groceries and use his internet, and go to work and do nothing else but wait for him to drop dead, and I’d be able to save money faster. But that’s just no way to spend your 20s. So I do spend money for enrichment. If I’m not going to go to college right now, why not get really in shape? It’s not just money I save by living with family, it’s also time. I did cut a day at work, but then I’ve been working days at the bunny set. But starting now, I will actually have 3 days off a week. It’s a lot of time to go to the gym, to learn piano, and make social connections.


More and more I feel comfortable in my neuroticism. I remember when I was 10-14ish I was really into personality and identity pop science stuff like Jung and MBTI and the Big 5. I remember learning about neuroticism and how it’s usually considered the only major trait where more just is bad and everyone values and desires to be less neurotic. Because neuroticism makes you bad and even makes you die earlier, or something.

All of that is probably true, but people just are more than large studies about life outcomes. If you have some undesirable trait, the way to go about it is probably not to hate yourself for it. It’s kinda like classes in a video game to me. When I was younger, I wanted to have been made more like this or more like that. Like, by God I guess. But you get to a certain age and you realize you aren’t going to grow any taller, and God made you an elf and not an orc. You can be a stoic (and a Christian) either way!

I was quite upset some day over my coworker’s minor misdeeds, and my coworker-buddy put his hand on my shoulder and told me it would be alright. That moment made me realize that I do actually have more tools in the box besides “sheer will.” Willpower is incredibly fleeting and easily diminished. If you’re sleepy, tired, drunk, sick, if it rains, if it’s hot or cold, most people lose willpower rapidly. Sheer will is kinda like a special attack. It’s not really sustainable for daily use, especially if you’re not Goku. I will never have more willpower than I have neuroticism, and I always felt guilty over this.

I have friends now. Most people become more neurotic when they are lonely: I was lonely and friendless so long, I never considered the inverse. Going to the gym definitely cuts my neuroticism. All of the talents I am interested in: pilates, weightlifting, and BJJ, are specifically interests because I think they will personally benefit me in a broader sense. Not because I read some study or whatever. It’s more vibes-based. Hell, even the piano playing. I understand more and more the whole adage about a man being the sum of who walks on either side of him. My identity will change very little by me sitting and stewing that I “simply must not act this way”, but it has already changed a lot by a few months of pilates, and a few years at a new job, and a few years with new friends and hobbies.

It’s the irony of it that for being a “mature child” I’m very clearly delayed in a lot of things like “having hobbies” and “having friends” because I spent all my time being the adult. So, a strangely important part of being an adult is using my newfound powers to do things like “buy, cook and eat food” and “play social card game.”

I want to talk about this because, being in a frugal-minded community, I would bet dollars to donuts that someone else relates, or that it will explain behaviors that people have seen in others around here. Even though I obviously have money for food, and I have a job so I will get more money that can buy more food later, I pretty much compulsively act like I have no money and no food. It’s not just coincidence that both of my long-time jobs- a homeless shelter, and a nursing home cook- involve free meals and domestic routine. My “default” behavior is to live like a scavenger animal, off free donuts and coffee and leftovers. I very rarely have any conscious or specific food cravings, and I am also very slow to realize I’m hungry. I usually have to infer it from other symptoms like insomnia or anxiety because “physical hunger” comes about 3 days deep for me. (Exercising regularly and intensely definitely improves this.) It does not come naturally for me to buy groceries and I do not naturally desire meals, I don’t think “hey I want a pizza tonight” and I don’t even think “I want breakfast” when I wake up. I know it’s stupid but I just wasn’t really raised, uh, eating meals and having things in the cupboards. I was raised “beg and steal random crap from people at school.”

It was hard for me to draw the connection that improved nutrition would improve my life. Or that things like having more than one pair of pants will improve your social ranking. I don’t naturally want to do those things. Frugality is great, but everyone knows money does buy some useful things. I am not naturally a “having things” person and I find I have intentionally talk myself into things like I’m putting points into a character in a video game or buying DLC. I really do call a lot of things “upgrades” that I don’t think most people would call upgrades, like, uh, purchasing smoked salmon, buying a new toothbrush, and owning two pairs of shoes, to give recent examples.

Sometimes it even goes against money-logic. There’s an opportunity cost to everything. If you buy healthy groceries, but then fill up on free snacks from the office all day, in a way you are wasting time (spent buying groceries you didn’t eat/perhaps wasting food you already cooked) and money (all the vegetables rotting in that bottom drawer.) But the answer isn’t to live off free donuts, because that is bad for you. You say no to the free things (sometimes) and go to the grocery store and buy groceries and cook and eat them because you are an adult with a job. They stopped producing the style of pants I’ve worn for 10 years, and I will admit it took me 3 separate trips to the store before I could commit to buying new and unknown pants. I wear basically only one style of shirt, but recently I purchased a longer shirt for more modesty at pilates. It’s covered in athletic slogans and my teacher asked me what it was for. I said, “To cover my ass” and they all laughed…. They did not know how I really had to go to the store and say over and over “I need to buy a shirt to cover my ass, I have decided this is an important purchase, it will be an upgrade to my pilates experience, my objective is to buy a shirt to cover my ass…”

The best things in life might be free, but unless you figured out breatharianism, you probably need to supply your own food and clothes and things like that for your best possible outcomes. Instead of the game of “spend money as little as possible”, I think it’s more logical and healthier to play the game “spend money as effectively and strategically as possible.” I have to actually sit down and think about where I want my standard of living to be. It’s easy to think you should just be a one-pair-of-shoes guy, but I garden in the mud AND have to go to work indoors AND want to go to the gym in the SAME day.

I think this forum skews older, so I apologize for all the people old enough to be my dad reading the 20-something figure out Life 101, LOL! I don’t really have anyone IRL who will listen.

[Scott 2]

It's awesome to see you working through these realizations, especially so quickly. Getting out there and trying new stuff too, instead of sitting at home pontificating. When things aren't perfect, that's such an easy excuse to stagnate.

In your post, I see a tension between figuring out who you want to be, and learning to present the person others desire. IE - moving away from one pair of pants.

Creating that presentation layer is called masking. It's exhausting, but also offers benefits. Understanding the extent to which you are doing it, then choosing the amount you want in life, is very helpful. I'll offer two resources:

Masking test - CAT-Q: https://embrace-autism.com/cat-q/
Book on masking: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/book ... price-phd/

While I'm coming from an autistic background, the behavior is not exclusive. Anyone who's a bit of an outsider wrestles with this.

[Cam]

What do you call a person who has been stuck in the same dead-end Easter Bunny job for years on end? A no-hopper. Sorry, I had to.

It's sounds to me like you're using your time off very effectively. I too want to try BJJ or something similar at some point. Looking forward to reading about your experiences with it!

[7Wannabe5]

Given a certain level of "mind", I would definitely rank "muscular" reserves over "monetary" reserves. However, this is towards a false analogy because what we usually mean by "monetary" reserves is more towards investment in a collection of complex endeavors which are supported by the "mind" and "muscularity' of others. What we can create and reserve in terms of "muscle" is more analogous to the form of "money" we can only store stuffed in our mattress or in the form of a commodity stored in a grain crib. It will degrade without constant maintenance or re-investment, and eventually will degrade entirely.

The nature of money is that it flows towards you when you perform work with your mind and muscles that is the sort of work that other humans who have money want you to perform within a context/market/field in which they can observe that you are performing this work they prefer. "Making yourself aesthetically attractive to others" is one of these forms of work others prefer for you to perform which will tend towards directing the flow of money your way*. Therefore, to some extent becoming FI will allow you to freely manifest your own aesthetic (no more business casual, yay!), but this is limited by the fact that doing the work of making oneself aesthetically attractive also promotes other social flows such as sexual access/opportunity and/or just more people smiling at you as you go about your daily activities.

Our culture is centered at Modern, and the primary motivating emotion associated with the Modern is "shame." The Modern aesthetic is towards cleanliness/sterility/elegance/minimalism/efficiency. Ballet is towards the epitome of Modern aesthetic in dance, and Pilates is towards the epitome of Modern aesthetic in physical fitness. Ergo, if you master Pilates, it will be unlikely that you will experience "shame" within center-Modern social setting and this lack of "shame" will extend to those who associate with you. OTOH, the "conversation" become somewhat more complex at the juncture with Post-Modern where "slave-thinking/fauxesque-humility" becomes the primary motivating emotion, because your achievement of Modern aesthetic will be in conflict with the functional higher level realization that many possible valued aesthetics may exist, but also the dysfunctional stance that all aesthetics must/should be equally valued. So, for example, your trim, muscular physique may be more generally socially acceptable if you also somehow communicate, "I took up Pilates and Stock Market Investing as a means to overcome such-and-such trauma/disability/disadvantage" rather than "I am great! Fat consumers who buy and eat Cheetos suck!"

Anyways, at highest level, developing your own personal aesthetic would likely be an adventure in exploring possible valued aesthetics beyond that which is currently center-social. However, starting from success at achieving Modern-center aesthetic is not a bad way to proceed, because it is minimalist and also can be quite inexpensive up to the point that the foraged nutritious greens are put into the very expensive blender or the defined muscular physique is dressed in garish fitness apparel. Although the "danger" is that, if taken to the nth degree, the Modern aesthetic is literally sterile; like a surgical blade, Saran wrap, an anorexic ballerina, the moment before all accumulated options simultaneously expire, or the completely emptied space into which the extreme minimalist himself discarded.

*In fact, for the 5% most attractive females in affluent societies (and some additional unknown percentage of the most clever females), "making/maintaining themselves aesthetically attractive to others" is very frequently their most lucrative work/investment activity, even if they are full-time employed.

[Henry]

so I apologize for all the people old enough to be my dad reading the 20-something figure out Life 101, LOL!

No apologies necessary. Actually, I want to thank you for removing any regrets about my decision not to have kids.

[delay]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I like the way you describe willpower as a "special attack". That matches my experience.

I want to talk about this because, being in a frugal-minded community, I would bet dollars to donuts that someone else relates, or that it will explain behaviors that people have seen in others around here.

One thing you can do is to try things. For example, I did a month where I spend half of my income, one double my income, and one triple my income. In that way I learned what each means. So when I wonder about life if I had twice the income, I no longer have to speculate, I know from experience that I prefer a more frugal life.

Another thing you can do is to think in grayscales instead of black and white. Instead of seeing spending a dollar instead of saving it as "bad", see it as a choice between consumption now and consumption in the future. Or a choice between friends, who like looking at people with good clothes, and having to work to afford those clothes.

A third thing is when you feel uncertain or hurt, let go of your worries about the future, and live today. Like Tolkien wrote, "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us." How can you make today the best day possible?

[Walwen]

Hello! Been a while again. For a while I was in quite a low mood and felt aimless. I realized I needed some more concrete short/medium range goals. It's been kinda on my bucket list to see my favorite comedian Emo Philips before he dies (He's about 70) and he's opening/hosting the stage for Weird Al at Riotfest this September. I also realized that I just don't want to go to college AT ALL right now and if I re-enroll I'm going to waste a bunch of money, again.

So I took all the money I was saving for college and I bought the highest tier of festival tickets, booked the hotel, got the PTO request approved, pretty much everything is already taken care of. I took advantage of some great credit card opening bonuses and used Chase's travel portal to book the hotel and got really good deals imo. Since I did this, I've been much happier and motivated because I want to be in good shape for this new experience.

I would say I'm in the best shape of my life. I am actually going to the gym regularly. It gets hard sometimes. I have always felt this way, but lately it has been actually upsetting. Everyone in my life is so fat. Please keep in mind that my friend group is all through tabletop board games and Magic the Gathering, so there's a bias here. Sometimes I wonder if I'm just being vain or something but I really don't think so. I am not really upset by the mere physical appearances of my friends, because I'm not friends with them because of their physical appearances. But, for example, it's sad that we can't really go anywhere that involves "walking around" or not being a well-air conditioned room because they're all just too fat to.... exist and do things. And it is upsetting how much they binge-eat sometimes. When we have parties, there are three people, including the guy I'm closest to, who I would classify as actually having some form of mental illness/eating disorder. I promise I'm not just complaining "wowie everyone ate pizza and played card games, what a bunch of losers." I ALSO eat pizza and play card games. But pretty much at every houseparty, someone has to lock themselves in the bathroom for a half hour because they all seem to have gut conditions and illnesses related to obesity/overeating. It is distressing to watch someone drink 6 sodas, two entire large pizzas, a family-size bag of chips, and then loudly use the bathroom for 30 minutes, the same way I think I'd be upset watching someone binge-drink and start puking.

I want to talk about going to the gym and my physical goals with my friends- which I do not think is inherently vain or prideful. But it's a little "crabs in a bucket"-y feeling. I can't even really mention that I've gone to the gym that day without several people making self-degrading comments about how fat they are, and even worse, people constantly make pointed comments about my weight loss and how skinny I am. I talked to my mentor about this and he was of the opinion that one day I'll just have to get rid of most of these friends, because they will not be able to follow me where I am going in life. He might be right, but it still is just upsetting because I wish my friends did not all have Type 2 Diabetes and binge-eat Pizza Hut and shit their brains out because they drink too much soda and eat too much candy in their late 20s and early 30s. Some of them also smell bad/are unhygienic for various mental health reasons, and they are so physically gross I would be embarrassed to ever be with them around my family because my family would probably be upset/refuse to have them around, especially with the new baby. To me, a 500lbs man who hasn't showered in a week and has fungal infection in all his fingernails is about as sick (in terms of social standing) as a pretty severe alcoholic and I think I am normal to be upset that my friends are in these bad positions in life, not healthy enough to be around a baby. I don't wish I had better friends: I wish my friends were better. But I can't cure addictions.

For the whole month, I've been thoroughly tracking my expenses and filming them as much as possible. In my mind I'm planning to make a big vlog that shows everything I spent/bought in a month. In practice I don't think I'll ever actually produce it, but the concept itself is motivation, so I hang on to it. LOL. The most surprising thing to me is how often other people buy me food, and extending from that- how often people eat out in general. I really do not eat out myself. But maybe the only reason I don't eat out is because people buy me food constantly.

As of June 24th, my family has bought me meals 5 times, each time it was because I was helping them with something. I greatly underestimated how much other people know how to cook or choose to cook. I am over at both of their houses constantly right now. My mother probably eats out 10 meals a week, and I would estimate my sister and her husband are even higher than that, although they have a new baby and he pulls a pretty good salary. It's not uncommon that they get Starbucks for breakfast, Jersey Mikes for lunch, and pizza for dinner. I am not inherently against it as a lifestyle choice if someone can afford it- I just think if it IS your lifestyle choice, you should be wise about it. They don't even seem to capitalize on ANY reward programs for having such strong habits. I have been doing some mild churning/account bonus stuff and cashing out all the cashback I got from spending so much on the hotel and festival tickets, and so this month alone I have redeemed 430USD in cashback. People act like cashback/CC rewards are always chump change, like it's walking past a penny on the ground that isn't worth stopping to pick up. Even if I didn't redeem any more rewards for the entire year (which I will), 430 is already more than a dollar a day- and I don't spend that much!!! Just from spending an hour or two finding the right CC and account bonuses etc (and they would definitely qualify for better stuff than me) I would guesstimate they could save something like 2,000 a year if not more. They are easily spending over 1,000/mo JUST on eating out- not even their normal groceries. Even just putting it on a 3% back on restaurant CC (which is easy to obtain) would be like 30 dollars a month- a dollar a day.

However, perhaps it is right that they aren't into that stuff: maybe they are actually the type of people who, upon getting a "5% back when you buy Starbucks" card, would double the amount they spend at Starbucks. The other thing I notice is that other people seem to not plan to be hungry ever, or they are just very used to using vroom vroom car to go through drive-thrus. Since I don't drive, if I take the bus out someplace, I still have to walk to wherever I want to go, and have to eat inside the restaurant usually- at least in this heat. If I take the bus into town and go out, I bring snacks or eat before, etc. It seems like any errand for these car people is an excuse to go through a drive-thru on the way home if it's remotely close to mealtimes. I have never, not once in my life done the "let's just stop and get food on the way home so I don't have to make dinner" because I don't drive LOL. And somehow I have still made it.

I have been trying to find my "personal style" and mature in various ways. Really been thinking about the stuff that I only did because "it's just how I grew up" "it's what I was compelled to do because of my mom/school/etc." I actually have enough of a social life now that I kinda have a need for clothing. I go to the gym enough that I kinda need gym clothes, because otherwise it's annoying to sweat so heavily into my work uniform and have to do laundry constantly: I might go to work, go to the gym, and just be at my house in the same day, and I don't want to wear the same clothes for all of those things. I have given some thought to the idea that I could do something like own a shirt with a graphic on it that I have a personal meaning for, and then my friends and potential new friends would see it and it would communicate something like "I have a personal interest in this thing that's on my t-shirt." That's snark, but I seriously have never worn a graphic tee because of my personal feelings of modesty. I also pick out any visible labels- I don't wear any clothes that say the brand on them or have pictures in general. I went to the mall and looked at a bunch of stores and had some sort of mental breakdown because everything looked so offensive to my beliefs and, especially now in the summer, felt so immodest. There must be a style for me- I just think I haven't found it yet. I unironically think I need to go more to places like a farming supply store to find clothes, because it will hopefully be more utilitarian in nature.

I am still big on "Anti-Wage-Slave Living" and lately have been saying the phrase "whimsy-maxing" to myself a lot. Life is worth living and things are worth doing. I'm really not a hedonist: it's not just about who can shove the most candy in their face. I am proud with how active I've been in my new niece's life as an uncle for the first time, because I definitely could have just declined- nobody made me do all the stuff I've done. For a lot of my life I've wondered about how much I will be able to accomplish and how far I will be able to go in life, and in turn this makes me worry about where I am in life, how capable I am, and things like the various conditions and deformities I have. I realize more and more that the solution to this puzzle is whimsy-maxing, or more broadly, living in aesthetic alignment.



I always think about those pictures of stuff like rabbits wearing aprons, in their houses made from toadstools, smoking rabbit-tobacco (Which you will recall is really lavender) and having parties with their forest friends. I don't know if this makes sense, but I figure I am just growing a better view of what "accomplishments" are in general. Living in accordance with one's views is a bigger accomplishment than a job title- I don't think I knew that when I was like 15. But when I was 15, I had little autonomy to live under my own values, so the idea of it being important was even more abstract. I watched the Wolf of Wall Street recently and my largest takeaway from the movie was that all of those high-rollers lives looked absolutely miserable start-to-finish. I think when I was younger, I would have said: "When they got in trouble and had repercussions- that was bad, but when they were partying with hookers on yachts- that was good." I think when I was younger, I would have seen the guy's mentor in the early part of the movie as a really cool figure, when he tells the main character to start masturbating, doing blow, and drinking more so that he can be successful in the crazy financial world. Now I saw him as basically a demon.

As a final note, I really don't like to name the conditions I have, let alone identify myself as disabled because of all the implications and outright stigma. Funnily enough, at least in my blue dot town it's not really stigma as in "boo screw you evil man!!!". It's people making lots of ideological assumptions. If I refuse to wear a shirt that says Aeropostale, you can guess how neurotic I am about things like pride . Once my high school girlfriend literally painted her face with the awareness ribbon colors and wrote the name of the foremost charity foundation over her eyelids, and went to school like that. For awareness. I cried, not in a good way, and broke up with her pretty soon after that. But as I become a more independent person, I also become more comfortable talking to people about it. I still think it is very true that people kinda hit a wall with me- or maybe it's mutual and I hit it with them, idk. They hit a wall where we can't get any closer to each other unless they know certain things about me. The biggest risk is obviously gossiping. When I finally trust one of my friends enough to tell them, there's a pretty good chance I'm actually going to be revealing info to my entire friend group. There are no takesies-backsies. I want to be closer to them and be treated better, and I just really have to weigh my options carefully. I really do not know if revealing information will make me treated better or worse. Either way, I think working through this is very important to my social life and greater social development, because it will never go away. I used to be very daunted by the idea of having a lifelong condition, but now I feel pretty accepting and -funnily enough- almost proud of it. I think it does make me a deeper person and I am already impressed and proud of certain things I've done in my life. I do feel like a survivor.

Twice, recently, two of my friends (who I have not revealed info to) told me that they expect me to die young because I seem so ill. After enough time around me, people realize something is broken. It always reminds me of little kids who point and stare because they don't understand why that man has no legs, or why their autistic classmate doesn't talk. My own friends will literally say "You're broken. You are a freak of a person." I told them both it was pretty insulting and they did not understand where I come from, but I kinda stopped there. I think a big difference between me and (most) of my new friends is that they have kinda fallen off the rails in their teen and young adult years. If you looked at their progress between ages 10 and 25 the line of "life satisfaction" would be trending downward and they sorely miss being fed by Mom and playing video games after school and not needing to work. Even though my "point on the line" might be lower than theirs, if you look at my line between ages 10 and now, it shoots straight upward and I'm proud, not upset about it. I am saved by Christ! God loves ME! I didn't know God loved even ME!

It's like if someone comes up and says "your life must be super miserable since you have that limp when you walk" and you say "You don't know that I was paralyzed in a car accident 15 years ago and have miraculously recovered so much that now I just have this limp." I find that most of my friends don't have what it takes to understand this distinction, they just see "still has damage = bad." They would honestly respond, "Well if you still have a limp now, it would have been better if you died in that car crash. I can't imagine having a limp the rest of my entire life." This is how immature people respond to learning I am a victim of torture.

Even if I don't make a whole vlog, after this month I'll still have a really complete record of all my spending which I will probably share here, maybe in another place on this site even so it doesn't get totally buried under all my journaling.

[zbigi]

Very good entry. One thing I can say is that, from my observation, having a group of guy friends is something you do until your mid twenties and then it gradually dissolves. Men over thirty rarely have such groups any more. Most often, they just stick to one or two friends who turned out to be more than just acquaintances of convenience. So, maybe it's time.

[loutfard]

Everyone in my life is so fat.[...]

I want to talk about going to the gym and my physical goals with my friends- which I do not think is inherently vain or prideful. But it's a little "crabs in a bucket"-y feeling.[...]I talked to my mentor about this and he was of the opinion that one day I'll just have to get rid of most of these friends, because they will not be able to follow me where I am going in life.

"If you sleep with the dog, you will get its fleas." Don't underestimate the energy it takes to take a different track than their dead-end one.

it still is just upsetting because I wish my friends did not all [...] But I can't cure addictions.

Anyone clearly motivated to escape that negative spiral? If not, how easily can you find other people to be around?

However, perhaps it is right that they aren't into that stuff: maybe they are actually the type of people who, upon getting a "5% back when you buy Starbucks" card, would double the amount they spend at Starbucks.

If not susceptible to this behaviour, you're one of the very rare ones. I love the EU system. Hardly any rewards. Regulation sets a 0.3% ceiling on credit card fees here. See the ever clear [url=https://www.bankeronwheels.com/do-i-nee ... in-europe/]bankeronwheels[/quote].

I have given some thought to the idea that I could do something like own a shirt with a graphic on it that I have a personal meaning for, and then my friends and potential new friends would see it and it would communicate something like "I have a personal interest in this thing that's on my t-shirt." That's snark, but I seriously have never worn a graphic tee because of my personal feelings of modesty.

Modesty is a defining part of who you are. If you want to also express that through clothing, why not? I wouldn't bother, but why not...

If I refuse to wear a shirt that says Aeropostale, you can guess how neurotic I am about things like pride .

No. This presumes a US cultural background that I am not entirely aware of. Are you mentioning "pride" in the sexually diverse sense?

I am a victim of torture.

It takes courage to express that.

[7Wannabe5]

The problem with simply taking any anti-stance is that you will tend towards shifting/escaping/avoiding/repressing rather than transcending. For example, it seems like a stereotypical social group at the other end of the same level spectrum from your current gang would be something like a group of junior high mean girl beauty pageant contestants. IOW, your group is dysfunctioning or simply being immature across the Adult Feminine/Juvenile Masculine quadrants, whereas the teen pageant queens would be dysfunctioning or simply being immature across the Adult Masculine/Juvenile Feminine quadrants.

IOW, in order to transcend, you will have to reach a place where you can also acknowledge that, for example, your current friend gang might be "playful" and "kind" compared to the teen-queen gang, but the teen-queen gang is also likely "laser-focused" and "aesthetically attractive" relative to your chubby-chum-bum gang. So, as a self-aware, emotionally-differentiated individual, how can you improve your own functioning to the extent that you can fluidly exhibit full range of higher functioning while in the company of either group or any other group of humans?

[jacob]

@Walven - Wheaton levels. They exist both on the social scale and on the global scale. Recall that, wherever you are...

your own WL+0 - A well-considered way of life that I/we have decided is just right for me at this point in my life, for reasons.

your own WL+1 - Someone inspiring to look up to. If only I could be more like them. However, I don't think I'm ready because of X, Y, and Z or before I ...

your own WL+2 - These people are just too extreme. While I recognize their abilities, I don't understand how anyone would dedicate so much of their focus to something with so little apparant marginal value to me and I feel compelled to point this out from time to time.

your own WL+3 - The freaks and weirdoes who don't do anything in any way I'm familiar with. I don't understand them. Therefore, something is not right with them. They deserve either our curiosity, pity, or ridicule.

your own WL-1 - Someone I care about but I wish would try a little harder. They could do so much better if they stopped making excuses and just changed a few things in their life. (I give myself 1 point for symmetry, see WL+1)

your own WL-2 - Helpless fools who have many of their priorities wrong. They may think they're trying but they're either not or literally trying the wrong things holding themselves back by their own ignorance.

your own WL-3 - The stupid assholes who are ruining everything for everyone.

I'm not talking ERE WLs specifically, but the Wheaton structure in general and how people tend to feel about other people they perceive to do and be different from themselves. E.g. one for health, another for wealth, wisdom, etc.


A few observations:

In your social bubble, it's a good idea to seek out groups where +1 exists perhaps with a +2 that the +1s seem to look up to. Don't stay in groups that are full of -2 because it will drive you mad. -1 is alright to the extent it's balanced out with +1. That's a long-winded way of suggesting that you should not be too far above the group's average. Individual mileage/tolerance may vary.

Also, note that humans are sufficiently complex that most humans exist on more than one scale. For example, someone might be +1 relative to you on health but a relative -1 on wealth, etc.

Yet, globally, if you climb too high, soon most people in the world is going to be on your negative Wheaton-side to various degrees. Not only will the world seem full of clowns and assholes, there will be few inspirations left. The lack of inspiration(s) creates its own kind of problems.

However, ultimately there will come an acceptance that "humans gotta human". The Overton window for various human values will increase. Perhaps there's something better than just accepting that "it is what it is" or dialing that acceptance up to 11 by practicing "loving-kindness", but if so, I haven't found it.

[7Wannabe5]

if so, I haven't found it.

Yes, you have!

Also, note that humans are sufficiently complex that most humans exist on more than one scale. For example, someone might be +1 relative to you on health but a relative -1 on wealth, etc.

Just needs to be expanded to etc. etc. etc. etc. etc...

[jacob]

Yes, you have!

In that case, I do not see or recognize what I've found.

[7Wannabe5]

That every human being or complex entity is uniquely valuable in the face of God's everlasting love. See also, "The Hermit" by Maxim Gorky.

[Scott 2]

He who ascended from Plato's cave, embodying the teachings...


In all seriousness, @Walwen it's great you're working with a mentor. Navigating growth beyond your peer group is challenging.

FWIW I would not consider someone who publicly itemizes my faults and is actively embarrassed by me, a friend. Those are not compatible people.

[ertyu]

I'd like to speak against the chorus of people who advise that you drop these friends. A couple of flawed assumptions:

- the idea that if you spend time with people who have personality flaws etc., you will pick up those flaws is incorrect. It's a superficial fear, coming mostly from concerned family members, that the flaws will be "catching." But the flaws do not have to be catching. This is Kegan 3 thinking. Spending time with a group of people playing tabletop games will not make you like them. You are a thinking being of your own. It is completely possible to spend time with people doing an activity, to feel compassion for them and to want better for them, to see the good in them despite their flaws (this last one is very Cristian, which you seem to be a fan of), and to decide to do things differently yourself. That would be Kegan 4, and Christ-like.

- another flawed assumption I can see in your thinking is the idea that if these people are your friends, you must do everything with them. You are regretful, for example, that there are some activities which you cannot do with these friends. This is natural - it is natural to want to share more than one type of activity with someone you like (even while you see their flaws). But a: you do not have to do all activities with these friends, and b: not being able to do certain activities with these friends doesn't mean that you can't do these activities, period.

This was all a lot of words to say that I don't think you necessarily need different friends. You need -more- friends. If these people can't, say, hike, seek out people who can. In addition to, not instead. These people might not be very financially-minded, but you can find others who are -- again, in addition to, not instead. You can keep playing tabletop games with these friends and enjoy the kinds of things you -do- have in common. You are, after all, a thinking being.

Also: I'm sorry for your friend who appears set on killing himself with food. You're not wrong to find it difficult to watch in the same way you'd find it difficult to watch a friend try to speed up their death with excessive drinking. It's natural to find it hard to see someone hurt themselves and it's understandable to wish things were different. Again, as you seem to be a Christian, I invite you to consider what a christ-like attitude would be. In the end, God loves them, too.

Switching tracks:

It's like if someone comes up and says "your life must be super miserable since you have that limp when you walk" and you say "You don't know that I was paralyzed in a car accident 15 years ago and have miraculously recovered so much that now I just have this limp." I find that most of my friends don't have what it takes to understand this distinction, they just see "still has damage = bad." They would honestly respond, "Well if you still have a limp now, it would have been better if you died in that car crash. I can't imagine having a limp the rest of my entire life." This is how immature people respond to learning I am a victim of torture.

Are you sure they think this, or are these thoughts you're projecting on them?

Furthermore: you do not enjoy it when people are not open-minded and do not respect your choices about how to best live, but you yourself come across as incredibly, incredibly judgmental when it comes to others. What you blame them for, you do as well: you assume that your own ideas about how to best live and what is important are universally correct, and that if others have chosen differently, they've made an inferior choice. I invite you to consider: what would it be like to know that their choices aren't choices you consider to be the best for yourself -- and at the same time, to let that be alright? People optimize their lives according to different criteria, and sometimes, these criteria will be different from your own. What would it be like to accept their right to do so, and to see them not as people who've chosen worse, but as people who've chosen -differently-? It might not be how you'd choose to live, it might not be how you'd choose for them to live if you were tasked with being a benevolent dictator in charge of making their lives the best they can be, but it's how -they've- chosen to live. You want them to look at you and see not lesser, but different and valid in its own right. Why not extend them the same courtesy?

Unrelated: your hs gf sounds like a great person. I hope she is living her best life, wherever life may have taken her.

[jacob]

Also: I'm sorry for your friend who appears set on killing himself with food. You're not wrong to find it difficult to watch in the same way you'd find it difficult to watch a friend try to speed up their death with excessive drinking. It's natural to find it hard to see someone hurt themselves and it's understandable to wish things were different. Again, as you seem to be a Christian, I invite you to consider what a christ-like attitude would be. In the end, God loves them, too.

Aristotle's division of friends of utility, friends of pleasure, and friends of virtue is a useful framework. Friends of utility are people we do things with but if we or they no longer want to do those things, we're no longer friends. (They're like work colleagues.) Friends of pleasure are people we like to hang out with because they're fun, attractive, .... and if they stop being fun, same thing.

Friends of virtue are people we like for themselves, for their character, for their virtue. We become better (more virtuous) in their company and vice versa. This is where the tension comes in WRT the difference in Wheaton levels I described above. For whatever reason, it's easier to like the character of someone who is close to one's own Wheaton level, say -1 to +1. We find those people "virtuous" because they're relatable and inspire us in a good way. This becomes much harder at higher levels of delta.

I think there's also the question of "virtue"-language. It's not about the nail illustrates the difference between Te and Fe. If there's no overlap in this language (what is being said and what is being heard), this also makes it more difficult to be friends of virtue. For example, a heavy Te-user will only be able to extend, express, and maintain their (Fe) sympathy for the same easily fixable problem for so long. If Christ-like unconditional love/sympathy is required, you're not going to get it via Te. Conversely, a heavy (Christ-like) Fe-user will only be able fix a limited number of problems (nails removed from their foreheads and from the foreheads of those they care about) before exhausting themselves and proceeding to seek charitable sympathy for the [unsolved] situation as it is.

The higher the delta, the higher it is. I suppose this is why we describe those capable of overextending beyond most as saint-like while calling the ability to infinitely extend god-like.

I still think it's a good idea not to overextend for too long. This will just lead to burnout and you'll end up distancing yourself just to protect your sanity saying things like "not my circus, not my monkeys", "your funeral", or a forum favorite: "no responsibility without authority".