semiERE: exploring semi-retirement

[Jin+Guice]

I thought of a new way to characterize what I see as the difference between pursuing ERE without focusing on achieving FI first (what I call semiERE) and pursuing ERE with a focus on achieving FI first.

The headline I hear for semiERE:

"Internet person figures out how to get 10 years of living expenses working for only 1 year!"

The headline I hear for straight to FI:

"Internet person figures out how to fully retire from paid employment working for only 5 years!"


The root cause is exactly the same, but where my mind goes with each headline is drastically different.

Personally I am way more excited by the prospects of the first headline than the second, but I see why other people are more excited by the second.

Tying to two together would be like:

"Internet person figures out how to get 10 years of expenses from working for only 1 year. Some internet people use this method to retire from paid work forever after working for only 5 years!"


Any of these are pretty exciting headlines in the face of an expectation that we work for 40 years. If we internalize the underlying logic I'm not sure that dialing in EXACTLY the right path is really that important. What I think is important is understanding the scope of available options to choose from as one makes their way.

[bookworm]

If I think of myself from perspective of burnt-out SWE early on in my string of jobs, I would perk up at "10 years of expenses from 1 year". I would put in mentality of: I (someone stuck on screen but with travel bug that hasn't been itched with enough sensory experience) would get the idea to "explore" the world for 1+ years or longer and bum around (with a resilient WoG of course!)...

My general strategy was probably best for me despite the tradeoffs, but if you magically gave me a different career (perceived longer path to FI from perspective of <= WL5) + increased extroversion (not burnt out from all the demands of office activities + family stuff) + no exposure to "straight for FI" concept (not reading MMM/ERE material and using the perspective available to me), I could see myself taking up the idea...

[jacob]

The headline I hear for semiERE:

"Internet person figures out how to get 10 years of living expenses working for only 1 year!"

The headline I hear for straight to FI:

"Internet person figures out how to fully retire from paid employment working for only 5 years!"


The root cause is exactly the same, but where my mind goes with each headline is drastically different.

A fair nitpick would be that the first headline is 2x the money of the second headline.

I do see your point, though. Seeing them as equivalent would require being fluent in both concepts or habitually using both lenses. Something-something and System 1 and System 2 and the demonstrated possibility of changing people's answer simply by rephrasing the question.

It would easily be possible to run an A/B test on this by creating two different ads and see what people click on.

[7Wannabe5]

Your starting point may also make a difference. I had already performed some experiments in frugal living in a semi-hippie co-op as a single student, but when I first read YMOYL, I was a recent college grad SAHM with two small children and an under-employed husband. So, we were already living as a family of 4 on maybe around $32,000 gross in 2025 dollars. So, my frugality goal was more in alignment with Amy Dacyzyn of "Tightwad Gazette"; be able to afford to own a home and continue to stay home with my kids, even though the economic tide was already strongly pushing in the other direction. I can't remember exactly why I didn't extend the graph to the possibility of my ex also retiring, but I think it was due to the fact that he took zero interest in our finances and/or he refused to only occupy half of the very old duplex we eventually purchased (because grouchy introvert), also he was employed at a very mellow, low-income-but-you-need-a-humanities-degree kind of job at the time.

Therefore, I hold some empathy for the scratch-cooking Trad Wife influencers who are basically cosplaying a Traditional(Level Blue) cheat code for early retirement for themselves, although often with the huge downside of also having to hook up with a bossy, perhaps-not-fully-scientifically-literate Trad-Husband type. The interesting question would be what level of self-awareness would render this a systems-level strategy? Also, would it be possible to enact similar strategy as a heterosexual cis-male?

Anyways, another perspective on semi-ERE would be that in order to fully ERE one must self-aware occupy/enclose some complex variation on both the TradHusband and TradWife roles with one's own internal masculine and feminine energies and/or be content to do without one or the other*. So, for example, the reason I remain semi-ERE is that I am not always entirely in functional occupation of my own internal TradHusband or Adult Masculine energy, perhaps due to bypass of Wave 2 Feminist power-suit practicum.

*In simplest terms, be content to live without security or comfort. Anybody who is entirely content to live fully without security or comfort would be de facto instantly FI and/or maybe a monk at Level Turquoise.

[Jin+Guice]

A fair nitpick would be that the first headline is 2x the money of the second headline.

Ah I was rounding using a 90% savings rate, forgetting how much a few percentage points in savings rate effects things at high savings rates...

If we're using a 33x savings goal the equivalent is "internet man figurers out how to get 7.6 years of living expenses by working for one year?"

My point with semiERE is always that a very low cost of living + the willingness and ability to save opens up a world of possibility, with FI being one very notable and interesting possibility. I don't think ERE and FI are the same thing or that frugality + saving and FI are the same thing. The reason I keep yammering on about it is because a lot of people are unhappy with their lives right now due to being on the work/ spend treadmill and 5 years is a long time to be miserable (especially since it's often more than 5 years). I feel the power of low expenses plus savings are underrepresented if FI is the only goal.

@7: I agree about starting point. When I came to the forum I had several years of expenses saved (thanks to finding MMM previously) but was still very far from FI. I wanted some of that sweet sweet freedom now and I saw some other people around here who were miserable waiting to be happy once they hit FI.

[bookworm]

Even if you do end up continuing down FI path with varying level of job unhappiness, knowing that semiERE as you describe it as a fall-back option can be a big relief. It seemed like a perspective shift. Glad to have it on the table through this forum and hope it spreads elsewhere.
Edit: In other words, you may prevent a few cases of OMY from occurring...

[7Wannabe5]

I wanted some of that sweet sweet freedom now

Likely because you possess relatively more Juvenile Masculine (fun, freedom-loving, risk-taking) energy than the median INTJ. ENTP tends towards being more warm adult-extrovert in feminine energy (TiFe), whereas the INTJ with (TeFi) is more sensitive juvenile-introvert in feminine energy. IOW, the INTJ semi-consciously must exert more adult masculine energy, ensure more security/control/power/authority, in order to protect their own internal sensitive juvenile feminine energy. eNTPs feel more free to take risks, because our feminine energy is more like a woman who can take care of herself and others. IOW, ENTP runs more towards a GoodWoman/BadBoy dichotomy whereas INTJ runs more towards a BadMan/GoodGirl dichotomy. Although, if you confound your Kegan with your Wheaton a bit, at ERE6/7 the expansion beyond the default mode will commence as default mode becomes more conscious. So, obviously, this is where INTJ moves towards GoodWoman (more care for community)and/or BadBoy (more fun) and ENTP moves towards GoodGirl (more conscientious self-care) and/or BadMan (more ability to exert authority/control.)

However, I should also note for the record that this is most true as I have short-handed it for INTJ who/when/where identifies as Type 1 The Judge than INTJ who/when/where identifies as Type 5 The Scientist.

[Stasher]

One thing I don't pick up from a lot of the journals and discussions when talking about timelines and financial security wether it is FI, ERE, MMM, semiERE, CoastFI or all the other fun acronyms was just sort of touched on by @7Wannabe5. I don't see a lot of discussion here that involves the responsibility/security in decision making that comes from a family arrangement where one is looking out for their partner but also the financial care of their children. I could be very off but it feels like are a lot of individuals engaged in the forums that have the freedom to make choices that only need to consider themselves or at most a willing partner.

I really like the 1yr ERE to 5 yr semiERE simple example you shared @J&G, I don't think it matters how we get there and I feel most of us just want people awaken to the opportunities that are possible to them if they reflect on how they are living.

[7Wannabe5]

I could be very off but it feels like are a lot of individuals engaged in the forums that have the freedom to make choices that only need to consider themselves or at most a willing partner.

-my emphasis

Yes, and this is somewhat oxymoronic, not coincidental, because towards the core of the individualistic perspective. Taken to nth degree, you have Harry Browne, author of "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World: A Handbook for Personal Liberty", basically paying off his first wife to buy his way out of any further hands-on responsibilities as a father. Predictably, he winds up many years later marrying the extremely helpful, much younger woman who helps him organize his papers/legacy. I say "predictably", because this sort of relationship, a man and his entirely-supportive-to-his-purpose yet also entirely-self-sufficient wife represents the minimal possible "family" or communal-unit an extreme Libertarian could possibly form. Almost like a cult-of-two.

Don't get me wrong, I am somebody who literally cried the first time I read Mills' "On Liberty", AKA the nerd-emancipation manifesto, but I am also somehow compelled to keep noting that it's not obvious how to include all the less than fully competent-in-the-moment humans in the mix and/or how they will otherwise not be included. I mean even an entirely fair individualistic meritocracy will generate it its own negative feedback, and I believe that some of the downsides of a not entirely fair meritocracy have recently become self-evident. IOW, the sequel to Revenge of the Nerds pretty much has to be Revenge on Revenge of the Nerds.

[AxelHeyst]

Individuals who have at most a willing partner to concern themselves with also generally have/will make more time to nerd out on the internet. The people engaged with the responsibilities and delights of their families will generally opt to be spending more time with their families than on an internet forum, is my sense. So the prevalence of 'individuals' here in terms of words/wk also makes sense purely from a bandwidth availability perspective (in addition to what 7 said, which I don't disagree with).

[7Wannabe5]

@AxelHeyst:

Yup. It's also not entirely coincidental that I happened upon ERE-the-book and then ERE-the-forum at the juncture where my youngest child was graduating from college, my second "marriage" to somebody with little respect for individuality* was becoming unraveled, and I was primarily self-employed running my own small business. My first impression of the forum was that it was like an old school men's club where people sat around in worn leather chairs and smoked cigars. Now I also visualize it as having an attached Roman-style gymnasium to which I do not seek entry beyond the smoothie bar.

*I love the guy, but "room of one's own" is non-existent within his philosophy.

[Stasher]

I only brought this up as my journey was having to think of my wife and my elementary school aged children when I started out well over that decade ago. It had a significant impact on my decision making process and would reply to the above comment that we absolutely have the time and bandwidth to be on the forums. I was very active on the MMM forums at the time and those who engaged regularly with me in both mine and their journals had young kids and it was a supportive way to get feedback on raising a family but also the journey into the FIRE based mindset with how those interact with one another.

[7Wannabe5]

Actually, one of the reasons why it was rather easy to get my ex to go along passively with my frugal plans yet difficult to get him to actively engage with frugal plans was that he was the artsy son of a frugal moderately-early-retired InTJ father with whom he did not get along, because, for example, made him be a Boy Scout and silently glowered at his family from behind newspaper in the evening, etc.

[lillo9546]

the most important thing is to invest time and effort understanding what brings contentedness and fulfillment. Once you understand that you can generally use any of the techniques to move in that direction.

How did you?
How should people do?

It is difficult for us to get out of the educational and cultural programming and never understand what we could do in life.


Also. @jacob
Your point about leveraging the skills and resources available in the place where you live, and creating income streams based on the needs of the local area, really makes sense. But how do you actually identify what people in the area need, and match that with something you enjoy doing?

I recently shared the story of a friend who opened his own personal trainer gym box, where he trains people for a fee. He's now making around $100K a year. Just after 1 year. I'm really happy for him.
When he’s no longer able to do that, he’ll probably become a physical therapist, using the skills he’s built along the way.

I get the point you're making.

Another friend works as a property manager, and he also uses his skills to run a sports club and also a renting company which is a derivative business of his real estate investiments from the cash flow he have as a property manager. Also, through his network of clients and suppliers, he’s secured sponsors for his sports club. How do you find more examples like these, things that work and that you’d actually enjoy doing?

[lillo9546]

Everytime I do the math on this stuff it just seems like its easier to get the job done instead of coasting strategies or anything else.

You assumed a certain income, but that's not realistic for me.
I'm not just looking for a way to make more money, I also need something that fits me.

For example, imagine knowing that being a property manager could earn you $50K a year, but you dislike the job. That's where I’m stuck, and it’s frustrating.
I have the motivation and knowledge to pursue FI, but I haven’t found a path that aligns with my wellbeing.

I’m still trying to figure out what I can realistically do to improve my finances and move toward FIRE.
I've achieved my lifestyle goals, (ERE lifestyle), but not my career ones. And with career, money, comes everything else.

In Italy, we say: "Chi ha i denti, non ha il pane", those who have the teeth don’t have the bread.

[AxelHeyst]

Finding a job that pays well, leaves ample space for your non-work lifestyle, and "fits you" and "aligns with your wellbeing" is very difficult. It's quite a high expectation. Very few people find/build/luck into a situation like that. It's a borderline trilemma: balanced lifestyle, decent salary, fulfilling work -- pick any two.

That's kind of the whole point of FIRE/ERE: it's a cheat code to get around the trilemma by decoupling the requirement for "decent salary". Do the work to solve money (either accumulate>FIRE or slowERE/bread job), and then you can pursue fulfilling activity without *needing* it to also provide a medium-to-high salary.

[IlliniDave]

How did you?
How should people do?

It is difficult for us to get out of the educational and cultural programming and never understand what we could do in life.


...

I'm not a great example of what many people here are seeking. I was already in my late 40s when I found my way to ere, which wasn't long after I started taking the possibility of early retirement seriously.

Prior to that I found something I had aptitude for (math) which led to to an engineering degree, which in turn led to a decent paying job which over time (34 years 4 months and 28 days in total, iirc) turned into reasonable lucrative career. None of the first 25 years of that was crafted with an end goal of retiring. As I contemplated retiring, I never spent a second about doing any sort of techical/engineering-related stuff in retirement beyond small amounts of overlap in music audio and related signal processing. What I did was, as I got to the point it was time to start addressing the question what will I do all day after I retire I just sat down and asked myself what I would like to do if I wasn't constrained by having chase a paycheck. Mostly, that went back to the things I dreamed of doing "some day" when I was a kid, along with some other things I couldn't really squeeze in due to the demands of life. That sort of set the playing field where retirement would happen. In terms of contentedness, I started with my lifestyle (more or less defined by my ongoing spending level) at one point, examined it, and concluded I was content with it. Then I looked at individual things and ran experiments. I suspended TV service for 6 months, I went an entire summer in Alabama without running air conditioning, eliminated alcohol, eating out, etc. Everything I could, I tested eliminating or scaling back, and for each one I said, did eliminating that make like better or worse, am I more content without it or less. If I'd have done that when I was 25 I likely could have retired a decade earlier.

My advice for people in general, especially young people, is to identify what you need to spend money on to make you content, then don't spend money on other things. Ultimately the math is driven my the ratio of income to expenses. Jacob's book and I presume his blog posts as well examine that. Fundamentally, the less money you need to spend to have a good life by your personal definition, the sooner you can achieve financial independence and/or the more latitude you have in choosing method or mode of income.

[Lemur]

@lillo9546

Will second what AH stated.

And yes, I did state a certain income. Math is math and earning the median income (while not technically necessary if you can get a real high savings rate) helps greatly when achieving FI goals.

If jobs were fun and supported well-being, we’d do them for free right? I know it doesn’t sound deep but sometimes I think we just have to grit our teeth and “suck it up” to get what we want. I never regretted my suck it up years at least.

Though if your job gives you legit depression, do change. But in the long-run, we get what we deserve. ETA: Of course, given that you’ve the means to begin with. This statement to someone living in South Sudan would be totally unfair.

[AxelHeyst]

In Italy, we say: "Chi ha i denti, non ha il pane", those who have the teeth don’t have the bread.

In America, we say: “Nobody cares. Work harder.”

(Is joke*, don’t tase me.)

*not really though

The phrase actually also applies to finding work that aligns with your well being. No one is handing out fulfilling jobs. If you do want one, it’s almost certainly going to take hard diligent work to find, cultivate, and secure such a thing.

ETA: I mean it kind of applies to everything, doesn’t it? It takes hard work to decrease your COL, to increase your salary, and to cultivate meaningful work (and luck helps). Everything you want is on the far side of hard work, either way you slice it.