Dying Well

[chenda]

There is a documentary along the dark side of those lines about people in Scandinavia who die and there is nobody to inherit little there is left, so the council employees take the task of post mortem death cleaning.

I worked once for a housing association and there were a number of incidents of neighbours reporting unpleasant odours coming from a property. Eventually the police forced entry and would find a decomposing body who had died months earlier and obviously had no one who missed them. Is very common apparently. Milk bottles pilling up on the front step used to be an early warning sign, but that doesn't happen these days.

[ertyu]

This happened to the guy whose apartment i bought and i am sure will also happen to me. I don't mind dying alone, I just prefer I remember how to go shit by myself and that i don't suffer.

[jacob]

It's my understanding that most Danes spend the last 6-12 months of their life in a retirement home. This means downsizing to a studio sized apartment (~20m2) with a shared common room to socialize for those who are into that. IOW, people are basically forced to do some "Swedish Death Cleaning" in order to move into a retirement home. Much like in the US, family, friends, and recycling centers/thrift stores/garbage containers tend to end up with the discards in case no pro-active effort was made.

The public pension (everybody gets the same amount regardless of lifetime income; it's about $1000/month with a COL similar to the US Midwest) covers room and board with some money leftover to spend on fun. Effectively, retirees finish up their life living much like university students. Very few die at home. Dying at home would require spouse or family to put in a lot of effort to make it so. The other solution is very easy, so dying at home is somewhat rare as far as I know.

[Hristo Botev]

A couple things. First, a timely video from Bp. Barron on the issue that presents the Catholic take: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKcXCK1T2Jw

Second,

It's my understanding that most Danes spend the last 6-12 months of their life in a retirement home. This means downsizing to a studio sized apartment (~20m2) with a shared common room to socialize for those who are into that. IOW, people are basically forced to do some "Swedish Death Cleaning" in order to move into a retirement home. Much like in the US, family, friends, and recycling centers/thrift stores/garbage containers tend to end up with the discards in case no pro-active effort was made.

The reluctance among some older people to downsize as they grow older is something that drives DW crazy; she and her siblings and parents and aunts/uncles/cousins had to clean out her grandparents' home after her grandfather died and they had to move grandma to a home. They'd been in that home for over 50 years. Very, very emotional; scarred DW. Would have much preferred to do that exercise while her grandfather was still alive and able-minded. I don't know what my "take" on all that is (I wonder if there wasn't some good that came out of what was a painful time in DW's life), but we are kinda dealing with this now with my dad, who is about to turn 80 and who is nevertheless the primary caretaker for my step-mom who has dementia and needs constant supervision. They are in a massive 5-br home that is absolutely filled to the brim with decades and decades of stuff. I help my dad out now at least once a week (part of the reason we moved back home), and DW is quick to tell me, fairly regularly: "You know we're going to end up having to clean this place out in the not so distant future; and it's going to wreck us both emotionally and physically." Yep, she ain't wrong.

[chenda]

I'm glad my aunt was able to live in her sprawling town house right to the end, where she lived for over 60 years. Clearing out her stuff was actually very cathartic and satisfying. It's nice to do something for a loved one even after they have gone. Everything went to an appropriate place and I think she would have been pleased with our decisions.

[jacob]

My goal is to die with a shoe box/backpack/carry-on worth of possessions. If nothing else, leaving that amount of remaining junk should be easy to deal with. In terms of financial assets, I'm going for the same ease and closing down the business that is me. Accounts and access known. Smooth path forward. In terms of body and organs: Up for grabs too. Everybody use those according to needs. The other 150 pounds of bodily fluids, fat, bones, and protein, to recycle into the local environment.

[AnalyticalEngine]

In terms of diaries/journals, you can always donate them to a historical preservation society. Here's an example of one such organization: https://www.thegreatdiaryproject.co.uk/

I'd be pretty horrified if any friends or family members read my journals but I wouldn't mind historians in 100 years from now reading through them.

[chenda]

In terms of diaries/journals, you can always donate them to a historical preservation society. Here's an example of one such organization: https://www.thegreatdiaryproject.co.uk/

Yes that's what I've willed with my diaries. Can't be certain I won't redact some of the really embarrassing stuff though

[Frita]

From what I remember of Magnusson’s “The Gentle Art of Swedish Death Cleaning,” she recommends a memory box. It contains one’s private momentos, like diaries, with instructions to destroy upon death.

Also, I know that my state’s state archive will accept donations of collections of letters, dairies, etc. One can stipulate that they are not released for n-years.

[classical_Liberal]

Thank you for this thread.

Living beyond one's healthspan is the largest contributor to a bad death.

Also consider living beyond loved ones healthspan, like below. In some cases the healthspan of your entire generation. When cultutral changes makes it feel like you live in a different world, this is a difficult psychological issue to deal with, so psycological-healthspan should be considered (not just in terms of dementia).

Is he willing to suffer the indignities of outliving his healthspan to allow his spouse to avoid suffering his loss.

Many couples only remain independent because they have a symbiotic relationship that maintains dignity and functionality. Many (most) times, once part of the team is gone, the ship sinks for the other participant(s). This is a real fear.

I see this happening a lot with children and grandchildren as well. Specifically when care of elder has been outsourced from the family. Family does not see or take part in the indignities of needing help to bath twice a week, etc. So it's easy to be a bit more selfish in wanting a family elder to continue on.

I recall a longer article about someone who had vowed not to accept life-critical medical treatment after the age of N, where N was 70ish?

I suspect this could easily become a moving goal post type of situation both in terms of N and criticality.

Certain outcomes of certain medical interventions have such a low probability of meaningful recovery with certain conditions (age being a big one), that statistically it's kind of nuts to wish to make the effort. Anyone choosing such a procedure should physically see what the probable outcomes look like before moving forward. Example, over a certain age intubation and mechanical ventilation have very low percent positive outcomes. Why go through this? It's not unlike a form of torture IMO.

The bottom line is that this is something we should all think about, talk about with loved ones, make good decisions in advance.

[chenda]

I knew of a woman who was diagnosed with terminal cancer in her early 30s. She had two young children and decided to fight until the bitter end, endless rounds of chemotherapy. The side effects were horrendous and only marginally increased her life expectancy, to the point the doctors and even her best friend suggested she consider easing off and enjoy a better quality of life in the time remaining. But she felt she had to stay alive as long as possible for her two young girls. Its not for me to say she made the wrong decision but as an outsider it could look at way. Either way, life can be so brutally unfair.

[Frita]

That is so common. I know a woman who quit her job when her spouse was diagnosed with stage 4 melanoma. They pulled their three kids out of school, homeschooled, and slow traveled. Her spouse actually survived longer and suffered less (her opinion). That sounds better than the former to me.

[suomalainen]

Rather than the mechanics or circumstances of the final [relatively short time period], I think of the question more along these lines:

Making yourself proud of the life you lived when you are on your deathbed may depend on your personal values and beliefs. Some ways to achieve this may include:
• Living a life true to your values and beliefs
• Achieving your personal and professional goals
• Building and maintaining meaningful relationships with loved ones
• Making a positive impact on the world and leaving a lasting legacy
• Finding meaning and purpose in your life and experiencing a sense of fulfillment
• Being true to yourself and not sacrificing your integrity for the sake of others
• Being a good person and treating others with kindness, empathy, and respect
• Reflecting on your life and finding satisfaction and contentment in the memories and experiences you have had. It's also important to remember that what may be important to one person may not be important to another and it's okay to have different perspective on what living a life to be proud of means.

A former colleague of mine died on Sunday from breast cancer. She was a very nice, very smart lady. She was 67. Her younger sister had died 8 years ago at the age of 57, also from breast cancer. She retired abruptly 2 years ago, although it feels like it was longer ago. When I asked her why she was retiring (or what she was retiring to), she said she was retiring so she could spend time working on art. I always assumed she had been sobered by her sister's death and wanted to spend her remaining time on something more meaningful than padding her professional accomplishments / bank account. Turns out, she retired when she got her diagnosis and shit prognosis.

Anyway, I guess I'm starting to think that the question of "how can I die happy?" is best answered by answering the question: Describe what a good day looks like. And try to get as many of those as you can. I don't think you can live in a zoomed-out view; I think life is lived one minute at a time - make sure at least some of those minutes every day are lived intentionally in alignment with one of those ideas in the quoted language.

I just got back from a bike ride on a ~15C/60F morning, listening to music all the while, thinking about my colleague. I don't know why I let minor spider problems (typically work or kids) take up so much mental/emotional bandwidth. Life's pretty good, especially when I stack the deck with activities (such as bike rides and cuddles with my wife) that are more likely than not to lead to a good day. Life's for the living, but we waste so much of it, even when what we need for a good day. IS. RIGHT. THERE.

[chenda]

@suo - sorry to hear about your friend.

The age to consider a walk in the woods seems more dependent on variables rather than fixed time like “Logan’s Run.”

Very true (replying here as I didn't want to detail ffj's journal)
The problem is that the window between a diagnosis and being unable to walk might be very narrow, or none existent. Some people seem go into denial about their mental decline.

[Frita]

Very true (replying here as I didn't want to detail ffj's journal)
The problem is that the window between a diagnosis and being unable to walk might be very narrow, or none existent. Some people seem go into denial about their mental decline.

Good idea, I should have separated my posts. Sorry, @ffj.

No gap between diagnosis and loss of functioning is concerning. It’s not like an advanced directive can address this, nor the denial. Even Death with Dignity, though incredibly flawed, could be a no-go.

[suomalainen]

What’s an aging-related adjustment you refuse to make, and why?

I refuse to vegetate, to lose interest in things, to let my curiosity atrophy. It’s a danger that we all face. It’s not an unreal temptation. How do you fight it? You talk. You think. You speculate. My granddaughter, who is 23, comes over here to hang out, not because we asked her to help but because she enjoys it. We play cribbage and talk about horses.

From https://oldster.substack.com/p/this-is- ... esponds-to. The rest of the interview wasn’t all that interesting to me, and frankly, I don’t know this writer, but the healthspan conversation that’s been happening and the eldercare/dementia conversation has me more focused on this than ever. Physical health is largely somewhat explanatory even tho much ballyhooed, but I think the mind needs exercising as well, and this was a nice reminder from an old guy who used to use his brain a lot that he’s got to keep using it.

[Henry]

I think you can tether three basic ideas together on this issue. One, intellectual curiosity is healthy. Two, intellectual curiosity includes learning about new subjects. Three, as people age, dominant personality traits become more dominant. Put the three together, and the attempt to hold a conversation with an aging person, or worse, a group of aging people, with a dominant personality trait of anti-intellectualism or anti-inquiry, is like taking a trip to Kubrickland and riding the Clockwork Orange.

[7Wannabe5]

Well, I think it is kind of cute when grouchy/rigid old guys sometimes pretend to take an interest in something new as a courtship tactic.

[jacob]

What’s an aging-related adjustment you refuse to make, and why?

I refuse to vegetate, to lose interest in things, to let my curiosity atrophy. It’s a danger that we all face. It’s not an unreal temptation. How do you fight it? You talk. You think. You speculate. My granddaughter, who is 23, comes over here to hang out, not because we asked her to help but because she enjoys it. We play cribbage and talk about horses.

but also ...

How has getting older affected your sense of yourself, or your identity?

It hasn’t, really. I am the same person inside as I always was—say, from age 12 or even earlier. I know more and I think more and I’m calmer, but other than that, same guy inside.

IOW, while he refuses to lose interest in changing the object of focus, the interest in changing the subject that focuses was dropped some 70 years ago already. I see both---it's very common. The loss of interest in learning new things happens to some... but the lack of interest in turning the focus inwards and learning how to become a different person seems to happen to most. Likely the latter never occurs to most people in the first place. W/o external influences pushing them, they just stop wherever they were left w/o the push---some time during adolescence. On the internet (where everybody is a dog), after the age of 12-14, it's very hard to tell someone's chronological age by the wisdom they demonstrate.

I think this is important when it comes to dying well. There's a difference between dying as a 12yo in a 85yo body and dying as a 30, 50, or 70yo in the same 85yo body.

Also see, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erikson%2 ... ent#Stages

[Henry]

Well, I think it is kind of cute when grouchy/rigid old guys sometimes pretend to take an interest in something new as a courtship tactic.

Not me. If they're not into Tesla long haul, I tell them to bust their nut elsewhere.