ffj's Early Retirement (round 2)

[Henry]

Do these Amish people you hang out with have WIFI? I mean, do they have anything? I just see a bunch of wood. Looting Amish tornado sites has to be the least lucrative criminal endeavor out there.

[Stasher]

@Stasher

I do think one needs to keep the whole picture in perspective. While this is clearly an example of charity at its best, the reality is that these communities live in a hive where dissent isn't tolerated. Now I personally like the community because I enjoy the honesty they exhibit in their thoughts and actions, it's quite refreshing, but I am also aware that I could never come close to living as they do. My biggest negative issue with them is the practice of shunning, which is more common than you think and to us outsiders sometimes over the most trivial issues. The groups in the pictures above are considered progressive and I personally know several of them whose family have shunned them for their lifestyle, as in having no contact. It's crazy once you start delving into the whole situation.

I can 100% relate to this with the Hutterites. We would always see the "ex-comunicato" Hoots in the bars and working on the oil rigs in my formative years as the 18 year old boys would rebel and leave the colony. Once they made the choice to leave for modern society that is where they would stay and no be let back. Very strict way of life and culture as you describe similarly to the Amish. Its not always rainbows and lollipops.

[loutfard]

I can 100% relate to this with the Hutterites. We would always see the "ex-comunicato" Hoots in the bars and working on the oil rigs in my formative years as the 18 year old boys would rebel and leave the colony. Once they made the choice to leave for modern society that is where they would stay and no be let back.

Amish, Hutterites, some Mennonites and similar brands seem to have built quite effective a cultural barrier around their community. Like it or not, but there might be a thing or two for eremites to learn from the way they organise themselves.

I'd love to listen to a conversation between an eremite and someone from one of these communities. I might even know a suitable candidate from the Mennonite community.

[Stasher]

Well on that topic loutfard, I am subscribed to Peter Santenello on Youtube as I enjoy seeing him go across North America sharing what life is really like in so many areas from a down to earth perspective.

Last year he did a video with Titus (now 18 million views) that to me was ERE level to the extreme.

"Deep in the woods of rural Appalachia is a man that lives alone on his land. He grows his own food, has no government ID, his overhead is $140 a month, and he possesses a claimed happiness by being free from the system, inspired by faith. Join me as we travel into the sticks of Kentucky to dive into the fascinating world of Titus Morris."

https://youtu.be/Ir3eJ1t13fk?si=d9U8RI_g_oosnHu7

He had so many people wanting more info that he went back and did another video with Titus

https://youtu.be/BBXVSnegoY4?si=JqmIZR0Ui-Wo8Eav

[ffj]

@loutfard

They organize themselves around Christ. Everything they do, everything they say is centered around God. That is the primary glue that binds them together with all of the rules as a gatekeeper to keep everybody in line. It would suffocate me living like that and knowing how independent most people are here I can't imagine too many parallels. Can you expand?

@Stasher

I've met Titus. Also a fan of Peter and when he made the first video I knew exactly where he shot the movie. I said, that's in Casey County in the Mennonite Community as I had been there many times before. The last time I was down there I drove by his place and there he was in the field with one of his horses so I stopped and chatted for about ten minutes with him. He's exactly the same as in the videos. I joked that he was wearing shoes that day as it was cold. He hosts a lot of people that volunteer their time with him as those videos had a huge impact.

[loutfard]

They organize themselves around Christ. Everything they do, everything they say is centered around God. That is the primary glue that binds them together with all of the rules as a gatekeeper to keep everybody in line. It would suffocate me living like that and knowing how independent most people are here I can't imagine too many parallels. Can you expand?

These people have found a very effective way to build a community very different from the rest of the world in terms of lower consumption. That's super interesting to an eremite.

Perhaps some of us might want to go physically live near one of these communities. I'm aware that this possibility is not for everyone. LGBTQ people for example might perhaps fare less well in such a context. For many other eremites, surfing on these sects' less demanding "subconscious material culture layer" might be interesting, making it easier for an eremite as a bystander to spend less. Maybe some form of symbiosis could develop. Just speculating, some way of being a culturally-acceptable-to-them individual interface to the technology world might be interesting.

Perhaps studying the glue of their community from a secular point of view might yield interesting usable inspiration for ERE 2.0 communities.

Just like many eremites, I love my independence. I also recognise a feeling of suffocation should I have to live like them. But... even in that feeling, I recognise a funny similarity with what Joe Sixpack would say about an eremite lifestyle.

[Henry]

They organize themselves around Christ. Everything they do, everything they say is centered around God. That is the primary glue that binds them together with all of the rules as a gatekeeper to keep everybody in line.

My primary theological question to the Amish would be how does the concept of shunning align with the Prodigal Son narrative.

[chenda]

My primary theological question to the Amish would be how does the concept of shunning align with the Prodigal Son narrative.

This is an interview with a ex-Amish who has helped people leave (or escape) from the community. He didn't see his mother for 27 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PIha-_2M38&t=480s

Is it pronounced A-mish or Ah-mish ?

[Henry]

Like you're getting your tonsils checked.

[ffj]

@loutfard

I don't know that you can take all of the "good" parts of Amish culture without the motivating force behind their behavior. Every now and then I watch videos on intentional communities and the unifying force seems to be to work the least amount while enjoying the communities efforts to sustain you. They live in climates that don't require much heating or cooling, and their homes are a step away from hovels in many cases. Smart or lazy or efficient? you decide. Either way, I don't find it sustainable for many reasons.

A community built on efficiency as well as autonomy with the downstream effects of relative order, cleanliness, food production, and work sharing on large projects would be ideal to me. Basically everybody has their own home, maintains their own gardens (equipment sharing a bonus), takes care of their own families, but comes together for bigger-picture work projects that benefit the guild. Mainly community-building, creating those third spaces that forces you to talk to your damn neighbor. You could make your own community park, build a community center for everybody's occasions, a community commercial kitchen with storage for processing harvests, store shared equipment, hold community classes focusing on skills, let your imagination run wild.

Everybody is expected to be a wonderful neighbor. The golden rule exemplified would be the only rule, and if you can't abide by simple courtesies then well I don't know to be honest. That's the problem isn't it? There is always going to be one asshole, or their kids turn out badly. The Amish have an iron fist, eternal damnation in the fires of hell. What would we have?


@Henry

The Jehovah Witnesses have the same policy. Either you are in or you are out. There is no gray area. Somewhere in the Bible it references shunning and that is what they go by as to them it undermines and compromises the ones who are on the correct path. Sort of like cutting a cancer out of the body.

@chenda

I've only heard Ah-mish. But even that isn't correct because everybody that dresses primitively isn't Amish. Think Anabaptist first, then whatever sect to which they belong.

[Henry]

The Jehovah Witnesses have the same policy. Either you are in or you are out. There is no gray area. Somewhere in the Bible it references shunning and that is what they go by as to them it undermines and compromises the ones who are on the correct path. Sort of like cutting a cancer out of the body.

Without turning this into an exegetical argument, the basic hermeneutic of the Bible is to compare scripture with scripture, so the passages that permit shunning need to be compared to those that don't and the main message of the New Testament is not to shun, but to forgive as you have been forgiven. Which is paradoxical, as I have heard stories of the Amish demonstrating tremendous acts of forgiveness towards those from outside their community who have harmed members within their community.

[Stasher]

@ffj that is pretty wild that I reference a random internet video and you have actually met the person in said video. Thanks for sharing that

[jesmine]

The glue that keeps Amish together is essentially strong identification with the group. Unless you grew up as a member of these communities it will be nigh impossible for you to imagine the overwhelming soul crushing groupthink. It's just like small town society in the days before cheap printing presses and efficient postal systems opened windows on a wider world. Identifying with a collective consciousness has it's distinct advantages, no doubt. Many of these advantages are longed for by many who have grown up as a lonely individual.

Mass-mindedness is normal for human beings. To the extent that it serves an individual, it is necessary. But fortunately we outgrow it only slowly, one at a time. When somebody does become a genuine individual, for that matter, everyone around them thinks that they’re really kind of weird, and exerts various kinds of pressure to try to drag them back to one kind of groupthink or another.

For me, ERE is one of the solvents used to weaken the glue of mass-mindedness.

As a side note, the old order amish in Lancaster county are undergoing a major split where they hope to divide into union with the one true God. How many groups will result has yet to be determined.

[AxelHeyst]

“ERE: solvent for the glue of mass-mindedness” sounds like a great tagline for the forum banner.

[theanimal]

“ERE: solvent for the glue of mass-mindedness” sounds like a great tagline for the forum banner.

And the likely reason ERE city has not taken flight despite discussion for over a decade.

[loutfard]

@loutfard

I don't know that you can take all of the "good" parts of Amish culture without the motivating force behind their behavior.

Same here. They are doing a few things interesting to us eremites well though.

Even just physical proximity to the Amish might offer a critical mass of moderated mimetic desire compatible with eremites. As an example, if you live next to a community that shuns owning cars, chances are they have developed decent transportation alternatives.

The Amish have an iron fist, eternal damnation in the fires of hell. What would we have?

The desire for a minimal financial footprint clearly is the common denominator. I'd rather use that as a carrot rather than a stick though...

[Henry]

Even just physical proximity to the Amish might offer a critical mass of moderated mimetic desire compatible with eremites. As an example, if you live next to a community that shuns owning cars, chances are they have developed decent transportation alternatives.

Let's get people acclimated to the idea of autonomous vehicles before we introduce the idea of sitting in a carriage staring up a horse's asshole.

[ffj]

@Henry

My buddy explained that they are strict pacifists and take it as a sign of faith to endure indignities. If someone steals from them, they won't ask for it back or press charges. They will pray for that person and try to help them. If they are harmed either purposefully or accidentally, they won't pursue compensation or justice. People are perplexing in what they believe man.

A few years ago some of them were kidnapped in Haiti, my buddy knew them as they were church members out of Indiana from where he once lived, and he kept me updated on the situation. Now they were able to escape after several weeks, I still have the CD my buddy gave me of the testimony of one of the kidnapped. I could only listen to about 20 minutes of it as it all centered around how God had set them free. Weeks earlier in one of our discussions I indicated that the kidnappers all needed a bullet to the head and he was aghast at that suggestion. No,no,no, he said, our prayers will be answered and you know what? they were.

@jesmine

They split all of the time from what I have observed. Usually over the man-made rules. The reason I have a friend in that community at all is because he split from the church and created with several other families a new church near my home. All of his church members are coming from other states to settle in Kentucky. And they all have a ton of children.

[Henry]

@Henry

My buddy explained that they are strict pacifists and take it as a sign of faith to endure indignities. If someone steals from them, they won't ask for it back or press charges. They will pray for that person and try to help them. If they are harmed either purposefully or accidentally, they won't pursue compensation or justice. People are perplexing in what they believe man.

A few years ago some of them were kidnapped in Haiti, my buddy knew them as they were church members out of Indiana from where he once lived, and he kept me updated on the situation. Now they were able to escape after several weeks, I still have the CD my buddy gave me of the testimony of one of the kidnapped. I could only listen to about 20 minutes of it as it all centered around how God had set them free. Weeks earlier in one of our discussions I indicated that the kidnappers all needed a bullet to the head and he was aghast at that suggestion. No,no,no, he said, our prayers will be answered and you know what? they were.

There are complex issues involved here including but not limited to demands set upon the covenant community as opposed to the demands set upon the non-covenant community, as well as the concept of justice being contextualized within an eschatological framework (earthly justice delayed is not eternal justice denied) as opposed to a time bound framework (fuck these heathen motherfuckers now). But most biblical scholars do not agree with the teaching of militant pacifism. St. Augustine had a well developed just war theory spelled out in the 5th century. The immediate move to forgiveness leap frogs the distinction between punishment and penalty which is antinomianism (an overemphasis on grace and depreciation of the idea of law in Christianity). The immediate move to shunning is legalisms (a depreciation of the idea of grace and an over emphasis on law in Christianity). The Amish seem to be toggling between the two depending on whether they are dealing with Amish or non-Amish. It appears you have better luck fucking with the Amish only if you are not Amish as opposed to other groups like the Crips or the Gambino family where it's best not to fuck with them regardless of your membership status. If there are any Amish, mafiosos or gang members here, I would appreciate any corrections to my understanding of this issue.

[7Wannabe5]

Amish Romance is a fairly popular sub-genre. Many humans fantasize about leaving behind the complexities of modern/post-modern life and just finding themselves married to a random, muscular farmer with baking biscuits as most complex task on day's ToDo list. One of my partners hired an Amish guy to build wooden shed for his acreage. One day we went to his farm/workshop and his toddler daughter wandered over in her cute little handmade dress, apron, and bonnet. She just stared at me with thick, green snot running down from her nose. I also fairly frequently encounter members of such communities at the major research hospital located near me due to rare problems they often have, such as dwarfism, due to inbreeding. When I lived in a rural county, I would also sometimes encounter them at my local Aldi.