A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

[IlliniDave]

I am curious as to where you picked up this factoid. It does not correspond to any cellular biology I learned although I will grant that my knowledge may be a bit out of date. With DNA dividing throughout the day, being able to repair DNA damage only two hours per day seems quite risky. I feel that an organism that could repair over a greater span of time would have a selection advantage. Unless the results of this damage only manifested themselves after the reproductive years.

Thanks for pointing that out. That was a misstatement on my part. Where I said "body" I should have said "brain", which was what I was thinking. And "only" maybe should have "primarily" or "required for" or something. I don't remember the exact phrasing that was used. The overarching context was avoiding Alzheimer's and similar neurodegenerative brain diseases. Occasional "little" gaffs like that explain my interest in the topic.

The original statement was made in reference to the brain itself, and in context was referring to the neural system components there, and within that was possibly specific to mitochondrial repair/biogenesis, but it wasn't stated as such. That was the specific topic of the talk: mitochondrial health in neurons, specifically in the brain. The sleep aspect was thrown in the context of "other things that are important to maintain healthy neurons in the brain as we age".

Unfortunately, I consume information through podcasts in sipping from a fire hydrant fashion and in a quick perusal of my recent playlist I didn't locate the statement. My recollection is that the interviewee was a cellular biologist who specializes in mitochondrial health through nutrition intervention. If I eventually find it I'll drop a link in the thread. Just to demonstrate I'm not disseminating random posterior retrieval information, I included part of AI response to the query "Which phase of sleep facilitates DNA repair?" at the bottom of the post.

Sleep itself is a risky behavior, and it's been identified in every animal that's been studied in that regard. So from an evolutionary perspective it would make sense that it provides unique critical benefits, and that it would be as efficient as possible. I don't think science has a great handle on why it's so necessary, but it seems like there's quite a lot of multitasking going on, on both sides of the BBB. The link to DNA repair was established relatively recently, within the last 5-10 years or so, I believe.

I don't know much about DNA upkeep outside the BBB, except that mitochondrial repair/upkeep requires periods of low insulin sufficient for the body to switch over to fat burning mode, and that is when they repair themselves or if too damaged get discarded and (hopefully) replaced by new healthy ones. Much of that happens during sleep simply because it's probably the longest stretch of time where the body is not processing incoming calories and gets into a semi-fasted state (especially in Western lifestyle high carbohydrate grazing), but I don't think is sleep specific. I get the impression that apoptosis processes are more active in a fasted state. But I don't know when or how DNA repair happens in general human cells. Seems like it would happen during inactive times, but different parts of the body are inactive at different times and some are never inactive (heart and lungs, e.g.) so to your point, I would guess that in general it's a continuous process. Maybe neurons are somewhat different because they are so long lived compared to other cells.

AI response to "Which phase of sleep facilitates DNA repair?"

While not a specific sleep phase, studies suggest that deep sleep, specifically slow-wave sleep, is associated with increased DNA repair in neurons. PARP-1, a protein involved in DNA damage repair, promotes sleep, and this sleep in turn facilitates the repair process.
Here's a more detailed explanation:

Slow-wave sleep and DNA repair:
.

During deep sleep, particularly slow-wave sleep, there's a general decrease in neuronal activity, reducing stress on the chromosomal structure. This decreased activity also leads to synchronized bursts of neuronal firing, which increase intracellular calcium levels and activate DNA repair mechanisms like PARP-1.

[IlliniDave]

I mentioned some time back I was going to state some goals for my physical competency when I'm "old". For mow I'm going to frame them in terms of what I want to be capable of when I'm 75-80. I was influenced by jennypenny's take in a different thread. It's basically to have something to map to when i'm doing my usual meandering for topic to topic in my health and fitness routine.

I'll say right off this first one won't be as easy to map to as something like doing squats and lower body strength development/maintenance maps to being able to get on and off a toilet without help.

I'll start it with where the idea came. My dad was apologizing for telling a story he'd told many times (his memory issues have a lot to do with repeating stuff). He said that's what old guys do. We tell the same stories over and over because we stop having new experiences. In a way that's sad because even when he has a new or story-worthy experience, he doesn't since he won't remember it a half hour later. So he's essentially stuck in old stories land with no real shot at getting out. But I though he had a point in general because having known a number of older people through the years, I know many older folks like that.

So one of my iDave (2039-2044) competence goals is to not be imprisoned in old stories land.

That's all I have on the topic now. I just wanted to get it down so I don't get distracted by other thoughts and, well, forget to remember it.

[theanimal]

That's a great mindset to have. I'm always impressed and inspired by those who don't let their age become an excuse. A few examples come readily to mind. We befriended a 75 year old when we were hiking the PCT who spends 6 months of the year on long trails hiking and camping. He said most of his friends stopped moving decades ago and just complained about not being able to do things anymore and wanting to be young.

In the adventure thread, I think @Ego once linked to a New Yorker article about a woman who started running marathons in her late 60s and was still going well into her 80s. There's a legendary old timer up here named Dick Griffith who skied across the North American Arctic, doing a few hundred miles each spring. He didn't start until he was in his 60s, and did most of them in his 70s. There are many others!

The one takeaway seems to be, if you don't move it, you lose it.

[Ego]

Reminds me of Peter Attia's Centenarian Decathlon where he talks about the marginal decade (the last decade of life) and then picked a wide variety of events to train for, much like a decathlete trains for the pole vault, javelin, discus throw and 110m hurdles... to prepare for his marginal decade.

https://peterattiamd.com/training-for-t ... decathlon/

[IlliniDave]

That's a great mindset to have. I'm always impressed and inspired by those who don't let their age become an excuse. A few examples come readily to mind. We befriended a 75 year old when we were hiking the PCT who spends 6 months of the year on long trails hiking and camping. He said most of his friends stopped moving decades ago and just complained about not being able to do things anymore and wanting to be young.

In the adventure thread, I think @Ego once linked to a New Yorker article about a woman who started running marathons in her late 60s and was still going well into her 80s. There's a legendary old timer up here named Dick Griffith who skied across the North American Arctic, doing a few hundred miles each spring. He didn't start until he was in his 60s, and did most of them in his 70s. There are many others!

The one takeaway seems to be, if you don't move it, you lose it.

That's pretty hard core stuff when I envision myself in the 75-80 range. I'd been thinking mostly kinder, gentler things that could be as simple as being able to enjoy a day of fishing with enough success and enthusiasm that I'd want to tell my fishing buddies about it. Or even read a good book and be able to recommend/summarize it to someone. There's a definite theme of dodging dementia/memory issues in all this. Riffing on the fishing theme, a quick list of how to break that down a little further might be something like:

1. Having enough mental energy and enthusiasm to get out of the house and go fishing
2. Having the eyesight and motor skills to maintain my equipment, tie a knot, etc.
3. Having the ability to get myself to a body of water, and if applicable, move around on the water (ideally paddle a yak maybe)
4. Having enough strength and mobility to cast/retrieve then hopefully land/safely release a fish
5. Having the endurance to spend 4 or more hrs engaged in the activity, including enduring whatever the weather conditions are
6. Having good odds of surviving should I wind up in the water

Each of those can be broken down further and genericized (i.e., made less specific to fishing) then hopefully across goals some themes will emerge.

I'm now thinking, though, that maybe I should have some stretch goals as well. I'd picked age 75 as the start of the period for this planning window in part because that's where I estimated my window for big adventures would be closing. I don't nevessarily want to make that a self-fulfilling prophecy though, and maybe should also leave the door cracked for being a bit more aggressive.

[IlliniDave]

Reminds me of Peter Attia's Centenarian Decathlon where he talks about the marginal decade (the last decade of life) and then picked a wide variety of events to train for, much like a decathlete trains for the pole vault, javelin, discus throw and 110m hurdles... to prepare for his marginal decade.

https://peterattiamd.com/training-for-t ... decathlon/

I've encountered the Centenarian Decathlon/Marginal Decade idea before. I don't remember if it had been mentioned in one of the discussions here or if it's something I saw Attia talking about independently. The marginal decade idea is in the stew of thoughts that underpins the whole thought process I'm starting. Some years back I had a few loose ideas about things I wanted to preserve capability for that trace back to something Greg Glassman (Crossfit founder) said or wrote. That's where I get the quip about being able to get off a toilet without assistance. The roots are in the notion of "functional fitness". So in a sense I suppose I am putting together events for my ___genarian decathlon. I don't recall the details of where Attia took the thought (I'll check out the link later), but in that spirit maybe I'll get my final list up to ten items, described in terms of everyday lifestyle competencies (rather than expressed in terms of workout metrics--those may well come a layer or two deeper in the onion). And the intent was to lay out minimal competence thresholds. In time I can expand them to what might be gold medal caliber performance.

I realize some of this is rooted in fear, you could say. Watching different people around me age shows me much of what I'd like to avoid. In my immediate circle I don't have any good role models, lol. Decline is inevitable save a sudden, unexpected, early demise. I just don't want to be one of those people who won't even reach for the low fruit to maintain a higher QoL in the out years by investing a little time and effort ahead of time.

[7Wannabe5]

So one of my iDave (2039-2044) competence goals is to not be imprisoned in old stories land.

This strikes me as a sort of meta-goal, because in order to have new stories you have to take new risks, but the act of forming and communicating a goal is itself a form of risk.

I was thinking about the new stories I was sharing at a social event last night, and how my stories tend towards "odd comic mishap", so this must also be representative of the sort of risks I am taking. For example, two of the new stories I shared had to do with the "risk" of once again choosing to become car-free, and one had to do with the "risk" of making a fairly personal comment to a stranger out of surprise and curiosity. I was also thinking how there might be some no car stories followed by some new car stories followed by some old car stories followed by some no car stories and where you are in the cycle of however you create your narrative path will also contribute to the form of risk you will currently be choosing to take towards new stories.

[theanimal]

That's pretty hard core stuff when I envision myself in the 75-80 range...

Yes, I don't see it as prescriptive, what each person wants to do comes down to individual interests and temperament. I see it more as an illustration of what's possible and a reminder not to limit myself. It ultimately comes down to being able to continue doing what you want to do. As you state in your case, that's being able to continue fishing on your own under your own power in rural areas. Nothing wrong with that!

[suomalainen]

Reading the above, it strikes me that a major goal should be "keep making friends; don't be a lonely old grouch". Friends will help keep you safe on the water. Friends will be an audience for your stories. Friends will help keep you mentally sharp. Loneliness kills.

[jacob]

That's pretty hard core stuff when I envision myself in the 75-80 range. I'd been thinking mostly kinder, gentler things that could be as simple as being able to enjoy a day of fishing with enough success and enthusiasm that I'd want to tell my fishing buddies about it. Or even read a good book and be able to recommend/summarize it to someone. There's a definite theme of dodging dementia/memory issues in all this. Riffing on the fishing theme, a quick list of how to break that down a little further might be something like:

I can think of one concrete example of someone who planned to go fishing in their 70s but instead is now spending much of their time juggling very many different doctor appointments having basically lost their "license to walk" on any kind of uneven ground due to a sedentary lifestyle. I can think of another concrete example of someone who is always planning to read a good book/learn about history yet never cracks a book and increasingly struggle with even the simplest intellectual tasks.

The common variable shared between those who are active in their 70s+ and likewise completely absent in those who are not is that the former have 1) Been doing what they were planning to do for a long time already; and 2) they keep going even if the body hurts or otherwise protests out of a strong belief that if they stop, they'll never get started again.

If we put this in the language of "capital", it's increasingly more difficult to create it the older one gets. Worse, insofar one has incurred any kind of debt (bad habits, lifestyle diseases, dollar debt, too much stuff, ...) it's even harder to even get back to the starting line. Momentum counts!

And one should definitely try to avoid have to spend one's senior years paying for the stupid priorities and choices one may made as a younger person.

My takeaway is that insofar I want to go fishing in my 70s, I better start going in my 40s and continue in my 50s and 60s; insofar I don't want to have to bump my semi-obese body off the couch in order to stand up in my 70s, I better be doing burpees in my 40s, ... And if I want to be able to finish 600 page books on a regular basis, I should not wait twenty-thirty years "until I have the time to read" because at that point I might only have the reading-muscles of a 4th grader.

The prime strategy for those over 40 increasingly becomes one of "use it or lose it" (whatever "it" is) while strategies like "I'll get around to it" or "I plan to start" become increasingly futile.

[suomalainen]

And one should definitely try to avoid have to spend one's senior years paying for the stupid priorities and choices one may made as a younger person.

Kids, cover your ears.

[chenda]

It's notable retirees tend to move to bungalows rather than town houses, which results in leg muscles atrophying.

[7Wannabe5]

OTOH, I have also witnessed humans becoming stubbornly limited by their resistance to implementing simple aids as they age. For example, the old guy who refuses to get or use hearing aid or the old woman who is to vain to be seen in public with her walker. One of my favorite gardening essayists wrote about hiring a talented gardener who was so massively obese he would garden from horizontal position on the ground, like a Roman eating grapes.

I think that the open question when it comes to functional fitness might be to what extent should you be doing more of the same when younger in order to be doing at least some of the same when older. For example, even if you detest running as an activity, should you be doing it at 40, because you wish to still be walking at 80? Should you be reading force-feeding yourself Hume and Pynchon at 40, because you wish to still be able to enjoy a cozy mystery at 80? Etc.

I would also note that with old age, the occasion of one function shutting down may occasion the temporary inability to continue to "use so as not to lose" of other functions. For example, a terrible respiratory infection that renders you fairly immobile at age 79.5 may certainly influence your ability to walk at age 80 more than your habit of running at age 40. It seems like luck increasingly comes into play moving from 50s/60s into 80s/90s. IOW, I may be wrong, but it seems like late middle-age/early old age is where most of the long-term lifestyle risk plays itself out. For example, not a single medical professional believes that the fact that my mother is still overweight is much of a risk now that she is 85.

[chenda]

@7w5 I think I mentioned this previously but my belief is avoiding impact sports in younger days is optimal to retain long term functionality into old age. I've heard of bjj practitioners say they are riddled with osteoarthritis...and they're not yet 30. Barring medical advances they are probably going to be disabled by the time they are 80. Walking and swimming is much better than running. Similarly I think calisthenics is better than lifting weights for the same reasons.

[jacob]

I think that the open question when it comes to functional fitness might be to what extent should you be doing more of the same when younger in order to be doing at least some of the same when older. For example, even if you detest running as an activity, should you be doing it at 40, because you wish to still be walking at 80? Should you be reading force-feeding yourself Hume and Pynchon at 40, because you wish to still be able to enjoy a cozy mystery at 80? Etc.

What I observe is more that people who can still XYZ in old age correlates strongly with people who had an above average priority on XYZ in middle age. Whereas people who are meh about XYZ in middle age correlates strongly with people who are functionally unable to XYZ in old age. The correlation is so strong that it's very likely causative.

The people who get screwed in old age tend to be those where XYZ is their career which is now gone and those who talk and think about XYZ in middle age but don't actually walk their talk.

IOW, show me a senior citizen and I bet I can tell what kind of social, physical, healthy, intellectual, etc. habits they had thirty years ago ... because the cumulative effects of many years of living whatever their habits are/were have now played out.

Conversely, these differences haven't yet played out in full at middle-age although they are starting to show up. Whereas young people are pretty much all the same.

In short, a senior now has had 60-70 years of their chosen "nurture" on top of their "nature". This shows up more prominently the more focus-years nurture has accumulated.

[7Wannabe5]

In short, a senior now has had 60-70 years of their chosen "nurture" on top of their "nature". This shows up more prominently the more focus-years nurture has accumulated.

Looking around me here at the "active" senior facility, I can see a good deal of "nurture" on top of "nature", maybe up to around even age 75 or so. However, when I observe those who are over 90 and still fairly mobile and sharp, the number one thing they have in common, with a bullet, is that they were born with two XX chromosomes. In my personal circle, the one male I knew who lived until 95 and remained fairly mobile and cogent was devoted gardener and woodworker (taught woodworking to the mentally ill for a number of years), and ate one donut every morning and drank one Manhattan every evening. He also managed to pick up a 59 year old GF when he was 79, because he was quite tall and pretty good-looking, so that probably helped a bit too.

The residents who are in mental decline scare me a great deal more than those who are in physical decline to the extent they are running around on scooters. Observing the senile almost makes me want to allow my body to decline, so I will check out before my brain starts to fizzle. Obviously, the two are not uncorrelated, but there more than a few residents here who look like they could last at least another decade physically with very poor mental functioning, even though some of them only come out their rooms when the fire alarm goes off.

[Ego]

For example, even if you detest running as an activity, should you be doing it at 40, because you wish to still be walking at 80?

Walking and swimming is much better than running. Similarly I think calisthenics is better than lifting weights for the same reasons.

Attia (an MD with a practice specializing in this) frequently mentions VO2 Max as the best predictor of lifespan and extender of healthspan. His data comes from this massive study. So, at least some higher intensity work is critical.

A landmark study by Mandsager et al. (2018) involving over 122,000 adults, with an average age of 53, demonstrated a strong, inverse correlation between VO2 max (a measure of cardiorespiratory fitness) and all-cause mortality. The research revealed a clear trend: the higher the VO2 max, the lower the risk of death. Notably, the most significant decrease in mortality—a 50% reduction over a decade—was observed when individuals moved from the "low" fitness category (bottom 25th percentile) to the "below average" (25th to 50th percentile). This improvement continued as fitness levels rose, with those in the "elite" group (top 5%) having a five-fold lower risk of mortality compared to the "low" fitness group. The study highlighted that the mortality risk associated with low cardiorespiratory fitness was comparable to, or even greater than, traditional risk factors such as smoking, coronary artery disease, type 2 diabetes, and hypertension. For instance, moving from the lowest 25th percentile of fitness to the 50th-75th percentile (above average) offered a mortality reduction similar to the risk posed by end-stage renal disease, underscoring the profound impact of improving cardiorespiratory fitness on longevity. Subsequent research and reviews have consistently supported these findings, establishing VO2 max as a critical marker for long-term health.

Weight training and running also promote bone health, which guards against injury in old people.

[7Wannabe5]

***moved to Over 60 Biomarker thread.

[suomalainen]

Dexa scan?

[IlliniDave]

This strikes me as a sort of meta-goal, because in order to have new stories you have to take new risks, but the act of forming and communicating a goal is itself a form of risk. ...

In a sense it is sort of meta, I suppose. When I say "story" I don't necessarily mean a dramatic story. Another way to say what I meant is that when I talk to people I want to be able to talk about things that happened in the window between 5 minutes ago and 25 years ago. One part of that is keeping my brain healthy so I don't wind up with a severely impaired memory. Beyond that it would mean that I would still have motivation and physical capability to do things as well as remember them. Even old guy things so that if I happened to be talking to one of my daughters on the phone I could say, "I won a hundred bucks playing bingo last Wednesday," or "My back is still stiff from playing bocce ball last 4th of July."

Now people are saying sitting is the new smoking, so risk is ubiquitous. Avoiding risks is taking risks, it's just a matter of where the risk resides and the specific consequences it's manifestation entails.