bookworm's journal

Where are you and where are you going?
bookworm
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:19 pm

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by bookworm »

delay wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2024 3:54 am
There are many options within the salary quadrant. There are jobs you can finish in 4 hours, jobs where you can put in hours at the time you choose, jobs you can work part time, jobs where do short projects at various companies.

You're in the luxury position of having choice: cushy and well paid, or various types of adventure!
@delay Good points! I'm slowly learning that choice can be something to be grateful for, not something to be agonized over.

That's definitely true, to move out from salaryman to businessman is a big leap. I do think adopting a pattern of intermittent work (ranging from W-2 contract to seasonal gigs) is more like going from salaryman quadrant -> workingman quadrant where you have introduced one quality of slack into the system.

birding
Posts: 39
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2024 5:44 pm

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by birding »

I've enjoyed reading your journal. It's super impressive how many books you can read in a month. Are you looking forward to reading anything in particular this month?

bookworm
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:19 pm

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by bookworm »

@jaymi I'm sorry for the delay in responding. For the coming month I'm looking forward to reading Spiral Dynamics (Beck/Cowan) which I snagged at the library the other day.

bookworm
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:19 pm

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by bookworm »

Reflections on a long break from the job

It saddens me that I haven't kept up this journal on a monthly cadence, especially during my time away from the job. I still value this community a lot and want to share my journey. I also confess to lurking regularly.

One aspect of my web of goals is writing, which has been neglected for a long time, outside of journaling and notetaking. I hope that 2025 will allow that skill to come into focus. Keeping up with this journal and contributing to those of others will hopefully be one aspect of this.

My contract job ended last August. I do not miss the job. At this point, I am very glad for this break, and am past my FI goals. Regardless of what I end up doing, I am resolved to pursue other sources of part-time income to cover my expenses and reduce dependence on the stash.

The first couple months of my time off was focused on meditation, walking everywhere I could, and hiking. I see this period as a necessary decompression from the work situation, and a recovery from the shock of taking an extended break. But more activity crept back in eventually. One thing I realized is that I am perfectly capable of burning myself out all by my self, without the help of a job or a boss. This can come when doing ERE-adjacent things as much as a work assignment. Finding balance between being and doing is going to be something to work on moving forward.

Mental health and social life

I have been meditating as a habit since 2018. I realize when I get off the habit that it is crucial to my well being. For my wiring which includes a family history of mental illness, I think this some kind of regular mindfulness practice to keep me balanced. I think that increasing levels of meditation recently supported my further steps along the crowbar path. With more intense doses of meditation, my Orange baseline began to get subsumed into Green and beyond. I also saw how these alterations subsided if my practice got looser or I was focused on tasks like moving from one city to another.

Since I really started to apply crowbars to different areas of my life, I have drifted away from some friendships. Some of this was natural (people moving away, etc.), but some of it was quite intentional on my part. For one group in particular (college friends), I realized that whenever we got together, we drank together and spent unnecessary money. This has become increasingly unappealing to me over time. Although they started as creative/musician types, they began to become increasingly focused on consumption as they got further along in their careers.

After moving on, I have noticed a sense of peace, and also the ability to focus on the things that seem important to me. I can't say that I have necessarily found other people who are more relatable, but I do believe it is preferable to go at things by yourself if need be than to be alone in a crowd. My natural introversion helps me deal with this, and I still maintain contact with a few friends, have a partner, participate in two religious communities in my area, and stay in touch with family.

News consumption

For quite a few years I kept up a low-news diet. Part of this was overdosing on the news after the 2016 election and all the stuff that followed and then feeling pretty burnt out afterwards. At some point, everything seemed kind of repetitive and I began to focus on other things and relied on friends or family to fill me in on crucial events. With the changes happening now, I fell back into doom-scrolling again for a string of days. I could tell my mind descending into the shallows that Nicholas Carr warns about, and actually having trouble reading books / staying grounded in my body/world. I am glad this is more of a blip than a way of being right now.

Clearly, I don’t want to go back to earlier habits. At the same time, I do think it's important to stay informed for at least two reasons 1.) being able to get ahead to the best of my ability of any evolving political risk/chaos 2.) having a sense for the economic situation, especially as I am more reliant right now on my assets to cover CoL. My current solution is 1.) ask my highly-informed/plugged-in partner about things she finds important or relevant 2.) use a feed for a news aggregator site on Newsboat through the command line and check it periodically to get a pulse on the headlines/themes.

Spending

The main focus has definitely shifted from accumulating more to spending less. Rolling spending has gone down significantly from ~$2700/mo TTM to around ~$1800/mo TTM. (My partner and I split expenses for rent/food/house down the middle. My assets support my own spending only.) This is a lagging indicator of current spending since earlier in the annual period I was paying $1250/mo in rent and a little under $400/mo in unsubsidized marketplace premiums (my previous job was lucrative enough to make up for it but there was no health insurance provided) and I am now paying $800/mo for rent and $0-100 for premiums, depending on how income shakes out at the end of the year.

My average burn rate since moving is $1600/mo. If I exclude the cost for my part-time masters (my main “want”), the metric goes down to $1400/mo. The near-term goal is to get my TTM under the poverty line (~$1250/mo). That would put me in a favorable place in terms of stash withdrawal rate (<2%) and replacement income (<20 hrs at part-time job at my state's minimum wage). Substantial cuts past this point will require a more radical shift like a change in housing situation – which I’m open to.

Investing

I finished two of the textbooks from the Startup curriculum as of February (McConnell/Brue and Bodie). For the most part I am really enjoying them and understanding most of it, although a re-read would help with some of the latter parts of Bodie. I'm going to focus on finishing Economics: Public and Private Choice and then the second investment book by Reilly/Brown.

The challenging with implementing a more active approach is the inertia of my earlier index stocks. I don't really want to sell my funds in taxable at the moment., so most of the movement has been in tax-advantaged accounts. Because there is a system in place that has done well by me during accumulation, I will likely be tinkering for some time. I have made things more conservative with time. Right now my portfolio target looks like:

30% US Stock Total Index
10% US Small Cap Value Value
15% International Stocks
15% Intermediate Bonds
15% Cash/Short-Term Bonds
15% Gold

I also have a 3% allocation to bitcoin as part of NW, which I don’t count in the portfolio mainly because it so volatile. I don’t have any plans to buy any more for the time being.

Exercise

Much of my exercise is walking. I try to get in my 10k steps a day, which isn't anything impressive but definitely enough for me to notice when I'm missing it. I also walk just about anywhere I need to go in the course of the week, whether that's heading to the library or the grocery store (for small purchases outside stocking up). I'm actually somewhat preferring walking right now to biking, mainly because of the lack of good bike infrastructure and the homocidal tendencies of the drivers in my area. I was doing the 200 burpees/day challenge fairly regularly. I haven't done it for a while though. I have been doing a little more strength training and the barbells are making an appearance. A kettlebell is on my wishlist. Local hikes have been put on hold until temperatures get above freezing.

Food

Cooking has definitely reached a new level of internalization recently. I barely remember the times I was reading recipes like they were programming documentation and running to the store for every missed ingredient. Now there's a lot more throwing things together as needed and being creative. Some would say it's a little simpler as well, but I don't really mind that.

Using the advice on this forum and some prepper resources, I've put together a 3/mo supply of grains/legumes using freely sourced 5-gallon buckets from bakeries and Chinese restaurants. I’m coming to appreciate the convenience of this arrangement. My partner had doubts at the time, but after some of the recent turbulence in the world, she thinks I might have a point. Most of the sourcing has come from Target/Walmart/Azure Standard. I keep a pretty detailed price book of everything, and have made it a fun game to get things at the optimal buy point.

Reducing the number of trips to the supermarket has been a major stress-reduction win. With the staples taken care of, we're usually there for "wants" (mainly because our freezer is too small to store as many bags of frozen spinach I would like to buy). This has also reduced car usage to once or two times a month. Grocery spending is at <$100 per person for a household of two.

This is the first spring in our new place, and I'm planning to get gardening again, even with just our balcony. Having a microgreen crop and leafy greens would go a long way I think. I've also put myself in the running for a community garden plot that's within biking distance. I’m close enough to some conservation land, so foraging might be in order as well.

One thing that has been interesting is to do a food log with a simple spreadsheet. After reading Peter Attia, I've been getting more into macronutrient ratios and just doing a general check-in to make sure my diet isn't going to lead to some kind of nutrient deficiency. With a few tweaks here and there (and a little added overhead), I've been able to get something that appears to be meeting most of the standard health goals. I was actually surprised by this, since I think I had internalized an idea somewhere that spending little on food a d also removing meat/reducing dairy was going to be a big impendiment to a reasonably healthy diet. From looking at things over time, it seems like I’m on the right track.

Reading

January Book Roll:
Auto Repair & Maintenance for Beginners (Dave Stribling)
Deep Response: An Emergency Education for Post-Consumer Praxis (Tyler Disney)
Outlive: The Science & Art of Longevity (Peter Attia)
Straw Dogs: Thoughts on Humans and Other Animals (John Gray)
Earth: An Intimate History (Richard Fortey)
Mind: An Introduction to Cognitive Science (Paul Thagard)
Beneath the Wheel (Hermann Hesse)
New Dark Age: Technology and the End of the Future (James Bridle)
Radical Simplicity: Small Footprints on a Finite Earth (Jim Merkle)
His Master’s Voice (Stanislaw Lem)
The Shallows: What the Internet Does To Our Brains (Nicholas Carr)
Corelli’s Mandolin (Louis De Bernieres)
Ishmael (Daniel Quinn)
The Conspiracy Against the Human Race (Thomas Ligotti)
A Canticle for Leibowitz (Walter Miller)
The Mind Illuminated (Culdasa)

February The Book Roll:
A Life Worth Living (William Ferraiolo)
Think: A Compelling Introduction to Philosophy (Simon Blackburn)
Brave New World Revisited (Alduous Huxley)
The Law of Love and the Law of Violence (Tolstoy)
Investing (Zvie Bodie)
The Way Home (Mark Boyle)
Twelve Moons (Mary Oliver)
The Enchridion (Epictetetus)

birding
Posts: 39
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2024 5:44 pm

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by birding »

I really appreciated your update. My perfectionism has been holding back a response, but here goes.

I wonder about how “Auto Repair & Maintenance for Beginners” was. I took out “How to Keep Your Volkswagen Alive” months ago, wanting to dive into the topic, but barely opened it. The minor tasks I’ve done on my car or my GF’s have been accomplished with watching YT as I go. It’s occurred to me that foundational knowledge would help - I guess it’s in the same sense as the Startup Curriculum for investing.

GL with the balcony garden if you’re able to get it going. My approach with news has been to keep my head down mainly, relying on your #1. You’re #2 is interesting to have some active engagement. With your cooking internalization, has any resource been especially helpful? Bittman?

Last, I totally identify with the social life comments. It’s a bummer to drift away from old friends, feeling loss of shared values. My side projects and hope for the future are currently carrying me through. Anyhow, I hope you enjoy the rest of the job break, for however long you choose to continue it.

Western Red Cedar
Posts: 1519
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:15 pm

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by Western Red Cedar »

bookworm wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 3:06 pm
Reading
The username checks out :lol:. Your bookrolls are inspiring and put me to shame. You are reading more in a quarter than I finish in a year.

I look forward to reading more frequent updates. Do you maintain an analog journal? Do you have a practice for taking notes or journaling about what you are reading?

bookworm
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:19 pm

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by bookworm »

@birding
birding wrote:
Wed Mar 26, 2025 6:46 am
My perfectionism has been holding back a response, but here goes.
Thank you for your thoughtful response! You and me both on perfectionism. I think keeping this journal up and interacting regularly will help me address this tendency.
birding wrote:
Wed Mar 26, 2025 6:46 am
It’s occurred to me that foundational knowledge would help - I guess it’s in the same sense as the Startup Curriculum for investing.
That's along the lines of what I was thinking. For this skill I wanted a map of the territory to know everything that can go wrong. Maybe the next step would be a DIY shop class and a set of tasks to perform. Maybe a kind of overtraining to get ahead of the most common problems that are likely to occur?

Not sure about you but for me car repair is not something I enjoy for its own sake, unlike some other DIY tasks. My ideal would be to time-efficiently do all the maintenance on my own and wisely choose the services of a professional for repairs.
birding wrote:
Wed Mar 26, 2025 6:46 am
My approach with news has been to keep my head down mainly
Abstaining/heavy rate limiting seems like the way to go for me. So far my experiment with being more engaged has been largely a failure (leading to feelings of powerlessness, not having actionable insight, reducing my daily well-being, etc.) I'm back to cutting it out except for a few podcasts while doing housework. I've also thought about a weekly read of a paper newspaper at the library but haven't gotten around to it yet.

I think part of the issue is that I formed a bad habit around it a some years ago, and I found it easier to go cold turkey than to figure out how to deal with the news more meaningfully.
birding wrote:
Wed Mar 26, 2025 6:46 am
With your cooking internalization, has any resource been especially helpful? Bittman?
The thing that helped is repetition on simple things (pasta/chili/bread, etc.) and then varying things a little each time. Having some consistent feedback from my GF who is a good, intuitive cook also helped to boost confidence that I wasn’t horribly messing things up. Next step for me is probably to look at Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat by Samin Nosrat and start working my way through the recipes there. I checked Bitmann out but never got too far. It felt more like a reference to me than something I could work through as a manual.
birding wrote:
Wed Mar 26, 2025 6:46 am
Last, I totally identify with the social life comments. It’s a bummer to drift away from old friends, feeling loss of shared values.
It does. I just don’t feel like the same person I was when I met them. It seems like they are more or less the same, and that seems to work for them which I understand. When I started to pay more attention to my own internal peace, I started to care less about keeping certain people around. The desire to connect turned increasingly inward.

I get a lot out of energy/fulfillment from personal projects, community stuff, GF, chatting with the neighbors, volunteer tutoring, and reaching out to friends here and there.

bookworm
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:19 pm

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by bookworm »

Western Red Cedar wrote:
Wed Mar 26, 2025 10:45 am
The username checks out :lol:.
@WRC - I must be true to form. :)

Thanks for stopping by! I read through most of your journal while you were building the stash and have been following your ongoing world travels with interest. Really appreciate your perspective on what comes after FI/money is a solved problem.

I generally take notes on the nonfiction things I read. Sometimes it’s mainly quotes, other times it’s more detailed notes, or maybe just a basic summary. I usually wait a couple of days until after I’ve finished the book, which I think helps with retention after the initial memory decay. I’ve also found that note taking can feel like a chore, so I’ll sometimes take a break while my reading gets back in alignment.

For journaling, I try to write two pages each day in a paper journal, usually in the morning. There’s not a lot of filter on what ends up there, but it is interesting to see how the style changes with mood/time/what I've been reading recently.

ertyu
Posts: 3426
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:31 am

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by ertyu »

Came here to check out how the no buy is going :eyes:

bookworm
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:19 pm

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by bookworm »

@erytu, you got me thinking through my criteria for a no-buy which I've had in my head but never written down here.

My exceptions from the no-buy/low-buy are the following:
  • tools
  • simple food
  • train tickets/gas/car repair
  • house consumables (soap/toilet paper/etc.)
  • gifts for family/friends/SO
  • replacement trail shoes/hiking gear
Additional rules:
  • No eating out while at home, except for special occasions.
  • No subs. Current exception is an email alias service that I got for $1 last year.
YTD I bought two things purchased that were perhaps not strictly necessary:
1. Silicone bags ~ $5: like Stasher but from Trader Joe's for less $ but good quality, close to house consumable.
2. Air foot pump ~ $15: to make me less dependent on gas station machines for low tire pressure, arguably a tool.

I've been doing a no-buy/low-buy since January 2024. Might have to look back and see what other things I purchased that are outside the criteria above.

One motivation to continue into this year: I'm focused on shaving off TTM by ~20-25%.

bookworm
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:19 pm

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by bookworm »

March 2025

Future Plans

I’m finally starting to transition into my writing project. That’s going to be the major focus for this coming month starting now. I am finishing up my online class which has a term paper at the end of it so I am naturally focused at that, but I also plan to write more outside, including contributions here.

Spring is here, and I want to prioritize being outside as much as possible. In particular, I plan to do a few longer car camping trips out boondocking in nearby New England. I’ve been hunkered down in settler mode for a while for good reasons, but I feel it’s time to get back into exploration mode again.

Information Consumption

News consumption has been less disruptive to my overall life recently. I’ve gone so far as to set up block lists which is enough of an impediment to me. I am allowing myself a few podcasts for listening to while I’m doing things like food prep, and that’s about it. Processing it in audio form rate limits my input and makes it feel less overwhelming.

I am less aversive to screen time right now. At the moment, it seems like writing and other productive actives (improving Spanish reading comprehension on Wikipedia and other sources) is a way to fill in the gap left by other less aligned behaviors - news only being only one of them.

Exercise/Food/Health

I’ve been experimenting with a 20-30 minute blitz to get housework / cooking ready. I’m kind of amazed how much can be accomplished in that time. The point is to move through these baseline things and make some of the other efforts in this category less time-consuming. My diet has become a little simpler in the process.

Recently I realized I’m somewhat underweight, so I’m being more intentional about my meals and trying to dial things in. For a period, I’m entering my meals in a spreadsheet to get a sense of calories and nutritional content. So far I’ve been seeing some reasonable gain (1lb/week) based on a calorie surplus. Hoping that the formal entry gives way over time to a more intuitive style.

Exercise has been more varied and frequent. Body weight training along with dumbbells has been added in the loop. I’d like to fold in the running habit as well. I remember how I felt a year ago when I had the running/strength/meditation trifecta going all at once.

I'm still enjoying the new bucket food system. This month we did our last bulk buy up to what will likely be the maximum to keep in the house (~4 months). Now the challenge moves to figure out creative ways to eat down our stores.

Tracking nutrition showed some gaps in the diet which I'm starting to deal with. I bumped up protein consumption and added more daily fruits/vegetables. Lunch is a daily smoothie to round things out.

At this point, most meals are from scratch. It's all vegetarian, with little added sugar. I've been baking my own bread with the flour that I bought in bulk, although I still haven't found a good replacement for whole wheat supermarket bread. Alcohol is now highly occasional at social events, and usually not more than 1 beer at most. I’m going months without it and feel great. Coffee is still a daily affair. My dosage is around ~200 mg of caffeine/day at this point and going steady. It’s gone down significantly from before when I used to drink a 3-cup mocha pot’s worth of ~300 mg as a baseline which probably stretched up to ~600 mg if I wasn’t rested or had to grind something out at work.

Vitamin D supplementation is going fairly steady. I find that I get off this train in the summer and then forget to keep going when winter hits. It seems like it helps me with my self-diagnosed seasonal affective disorder.

The edible garden is currently a sad basil plant on a windowsill which is being nursed back to health. I bought some planting soil since we were running low. Things are warming up around here, so there should be more momentum this month.

Core Habits

I was thinking a little about the sort of habits (outside attending to bare physiological needs) that I would need/want to do daily, basically for the rest of my life in order to be a decent, well-functioning version of myself. I think of these as my personal bare minimums:

Brushing teeth/flossing - 2 minutes
Healthy food preparation - 20+ minutes
Meditation - 20+ minutes
Exercise - 20+ minutes
Journal - 10+ minutes

Learning Projects

In the style of ultra learning, I’m likely to be focusing efforts in a few areas:

1. Spanish learning Part 2 (1-2 months): This builds off an earlier project I did two years ago that worked out well. The focus would be on sentence construction and comprehension of spoken content (podcasts/Youtube). Considering a Baselang subscription or just a regular iTalki tutor.
2. Tent Life/Hiking Intensive (2 weeks-1 month): As mentioned earlier, go on local adventures. Car camp in different places on the abundant BLM land that is there. Meditate/hike/go low tech/leave apartment box.
3. Naturalist deep dive (2 weeks-1 month): Design a curriculum. Continue investigation into geology and earth science. Look for applications in local hikes to connect to personal life. Complementary project would be focused on urban foraging and plant identification.
4. Meditation Intensive Part 2 (1 month) - Meditate intensively 3+ hours/day. Focus on moment to moment awareness. Review The Mind Illuminated. Create in home retreat schedule.

Finances

The game of how low TTM can drop given current living situation continues. I’m hoping to sail down to ~15k/yr by year end or about a 20% reduction in living expenses. The majority of this is from higher rent and premiums earlier in the year. But there are subtler areas for savings that will be interesting to observe over time.

I am really focused right now on reducing expenses to the minimum through a low buy. This might be leading to procrastination of some important things that I’d like to do that might cost money, but I'd rather keep the momentum going for now in reducing lifestyle spending. At some point in the coming months, I do think I will hit a local minimum after which costs due to tools / startup capital will rise a little.

I finished a dated version of Gwartney/Stroup/Sobel’s Economics: Public and Private Choice. It was a good conceptual refresher, although it did seem a little lighter on quantitative details than McConnell/Brue. Looking back I would probably have reversed the order I followed. After my writing focus in April, I plan to move on to Reilly/Brown in the startup curriculum. Extrinsic motivation is high since I am relying more on investment income at this point.


I pulled out some US stocks before most of the recent drawdown. Not intending to step back in for a little while yet. I'm glad to have made a pivot to a higher gold allocation considering the run-up.

March Book Roll

2052 (Jorgen Randers)
Spiral Dynamics (Don Beck and Christopher Cowan)
Ultralearning (Scott Young)
Epistemology (Ernest Sosa)
Economics: Public and Private Choice (James D. Gwartney, Richard L. Stroup, Russell S. Sobel)
The Earth Machine: The Science of a Dynamic Planet (Edmond A. Mathez and James D. Webster)
The Holocene: An Environmental History (Neil Roberts)
Overshoot: How the World Surrendered to Climate Breakdown (Andreas Malm and Wim Carton)
Trees and Shrubs of North America (National Geographic)
Madame Bovary (Gustave Flaubert)
Knulp (Herman Hesse)
Steppenwolf (Herman Hesse)

bookworm
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:19 pm

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by bookworm »

MBTI reflections

I did a deep dive into MBTI/stack theory as applied to my own life situation. This post from jacob helped get me orientated:
viewtopic.php?t=12360&hilit=stack+theory

Reading through Daylen's journal was also enlightening. I'm reading through Please Understand Me II and Gifts Differing right now.

I find it interesting that with a ~10-year gap in taking the test I still score solidly as an INTJ (technically INtj in quintile terms based on latest test). Looking in more detail, I get the uncanny sense that the order in which functions have come "online" for me map exactly to the theoretical predictions (Ni->Te->Fi->Se). I perhaps unsurprisingly enjoy my idiosyncracies tied up with some abstract process.

Ni has been the executive for as long as I can remember. I've always been drawn to cerebral stuff. Philosophy/political systems/math were my main interests before college. Being able to express myself coherently to others was the challenge. Studying math at university required further maturation of Te to act as an effective assistant. Software development continued the process through requiring me to explain thought process/lead in order to be effective.

Fi has seemed to have a hard time flourishing for me relative to other accounts of the type. This is perhaps due to some adverse childhood stuff with being raised in an ideologically hostile family (i.e. left-liberal agnostic in family of religious-right conservatives). Working through some of this stuff in therapy and self-reflection has helped me get process differing values more intelligently. More recently, diving into integral theory and more recently spiral dynamics helps me get a rational grasp of the systems that Fi can operate in. Successful career moves/adopting ERE practices/getting to FI/disappointing family consistently and things turning out fine give a sense that I am on the right path for my life. In my early 30s, I am increasingly confident to trust my internal compass. (I feel some tinge of sadness right now that I didn't do this earlier in life.) Despite having some periods of intense conflict, I can see how when I am in a good environment and am practicing adequate self care I am able to fall into my NiFi and find inspiration and energy within.

My inferior Se function has been a real problem child. I had some pretty intense somatic anxiety that was especially acute until past college. I also struggled a lot with sensory overload and still do in certain situations. A consistent meditation practice has been one way of working through some of this to moderate some of the excesses. Learning how to improvise on piano and play by ear was a big deal in getting me to get grounded in my body. I think the religious upbringing distorted in being able to experience pleasure in a healthy way, but at least I can deal with it now with objectivity. Sex helps. Hiking for extended periods (something I never had interest as child/teen) has been a powerful catalyst for this function as well.

The Ni/Fi loop is quite familiar to me which is basically getting caught up in a Ni/Fi (primary/tertiary) means jumping across Te (secondary) function. For me this manifests in getting caught up in various paranoid scenarios (what if I got "zeroed" tomorrow and I think some fear of current events as well). Leaning strongly into Te indeed helps (rationally thinking through the various scenarios in great detail through negative visualization).

I've also had a few interesting periods where I really dipped into the "shadow functions", but they weren't long lasting or were difficult to maintain. These usually happened in more of a spiritual exploration stage or personal crisis/transition point. Not that accessible in my day to day life.

I want to use anything I learn here, not as a way to get stuck in some fixed mindset, but as a roadmap to continued self-development. This might come down to doubling down on my strengths, especially because my current situation allows me to mask less.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 17111
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by jacob »

I'm bringing it over here to hijack your journal instead of iDave's :-)
bookworm wrote:
Sun Apr 20, 2025 12:39 pm
Maybe it's a coordination problem. Let's say that 1% of the population have access to unitive state U for 10% of the day. (For the rest of their day, those people are busy surviving, interacting with other people who live in consensual dualistic reality, assuming that such people are basically stable in personality, capable of integrating such insights, and are not confined into mental institutions.) Most likely, such people are dispersed and are unlikely to encounter each other "in the wild". When they try to express their ideas, they will likely be misinterpreted because others are not in a position to hear what they are saying since language is based on consensual reality and it starts to take on different meanings in U. For the most part, they decide to shut up and go along to get along. Even if they do manage to get together, the ability to act from U is limited by stability of U (and so typical conflicts are likely to ensure).

One possibility is that some cultures had a higher percentage of the population (>1%) with longer access periods to state U for (>10%) and were able to use unitive state to solve social problems. Maybe some communities form a subculture (small but punching above its weight) where this kind of decision making solves group problems and has some broader societal effect. Perhaps this will be a possibility in the future if more individuals begin to reach higher stages under whatever framework (not implying that higher levels necessarily require being in touch with U).

I am speaking from the perspective of someone who has sometimes accessed U, although not reliably. I find these states life enhancing, useful for goal orientation, and sometimes even in community to a limited extent (Quaker/Buddhist practice for me). But as I am ultimately focused on ERE1, I am uncertain how important it is to pursue these things at the moment. Probably others could speak to them in more detail / with more experience to how they use U in their personal life and in relation to others.

Side note: there is a lot of Green resistance to talking about these states at all which is widespread in communities which support practice. It creates a kind of flattening/neutering of meditation that I perceive as damaging to its actual usefulness in the world. At the same time, Green language is also useful for getting people into the practice at all.
Just to establish some rudimentary terms, lets differentiate between the unitive mind, the mindful mind or mindfulness, and the standard "monkey brain".

I do recognize the scaling and synergy issues you describe. However, every mode of mind has this problem. It is certainly easier for a mindful person to express themselves to another mindful person than it is to deal with a "monkey brain" mind.

Yet mindfulness also enjoys an N=1 advantage in that it can reflect on its own thoughts, feelings, and sensations in a way that a state of monkey brain can not or at least does not habitually do. This ability to self-reflect and to some extent self-correct is what I see as the main advantage of mindfulness. As such, it seems to me that mindfulness is better than monkey brain at every scale from the individual to the group.

Whereas, what you're suggesting is that the unitive mode of mind is perhaps only advantageous in a group setting or with sufficient density? Does this mean that on an individual basis, a unitive state/perspective does not bring about anything beyond a sense or feeling of being content ("everything is right and wonderful and just how it's supposed to be. It's all part of the one.") Because from looking at it from over here, unity does not present any novel or useful thoughts beyond that which mindfulness already do.

Not having experience unity myself, my second-hand understanding is likely incomplete. My fundamental question is what kind of thinking a unitive mind can/will do that a mindful mind can not or will resist?

daylen
Posts: 2646
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by daylen »

Curious to hear what bookworm has to say, but I'll go ahead and share some thoughts. I do think there are profound qualitative differences between monkey mind, mindful mind, and unitive mind, though they are of course all interconnected through a journey with deep historical roots and increasing evidence from the measurement of brain states. Roughly, going from monkey mind to mindful mind to unity mind suppresses sharp impositions from the default mode network reducing stressful beta wave activity. Quieting the mind eventually allows high intensity gamma waves to gain a foothold throughout the mind slowly increasing brain-wide synchronicity/harmony/unity. A more smoothly defined self or full gradient from subject to object minimizes suffering (and/or surprise). The center (DMN-adjacent) becomes centerless (networks everywhere, oh my). The brain doesn't exist in a jar, or at least brains tend not act as if this is the case. So, along this journey increased internal unity codevelops along increased external unity. An unfolding isomorphism or symmetry between in/out, self/other. There are limitless ways to describe it.

Though, if this unity stuff actually exist, then it must have been around this entire time.. right? How is it that a being in time could not experience unity? Perhaps it has always been the default and it takes the evolution of a default mode network to differentiate the universe enough for disassociation to occur? What or where is utility in relation to unity?

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 17111
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by jacob »

My problem with the limitless ways to describe it is that I've never come across a description that in any way blew my mind. In other words, I remain suspicious that "there's no there, there". Insofar this is a pre/trans-fallacy, I can not determine which side I'm on. Either I don't get it at all, or it's so obvious to me that I don't understand what the big deal is.

Let me try a chess analogy.

Monkeymind would just move whatever piece they feel like or what seems like a "good move". If they feel like a piece is threatened, they'll move it immediately. If they see an opening, they go for it.

A mindful mind would realize that just because a piece seems threatened, it doesn't mean it is. Just because something looks like a strong move, it doesn't mean it is. The mindful mind would work through ("calculate" or analyze) all the options and choose accordingly.

Now, here's where I think a mindful mind would struggle and a unitive mind would not: Playing against yourself. I think a mindful mind will have a tendency to favor one side lest they get stuck in infinite calculation. There are simply too many moves to think through in order to get to a point where a move no longer gives any advantage(?) Whereas a unitive mind will have an easier time identifying with the entire game and just play w/o getting stuck in infinite analysis.

However, I'm not sure a unitive mind would be a better chess player than a mindful one, whereas I'm sure a mindful chess player is better than a monkey mind.

daylen
Posts: 2646
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by daylen »

jacob wrote:
Wed Apr 23, 2025 4:46 pm
Insofar this is a pre/trans-fallacy, I can not determine which side I'm on. Either I don't get it at all, or it's so obvious to me that I don't understand what the big deal is.
Why not both? Unity as a process of replacing or with and. Embracing paradox may be what unknots the knot (and/or knots the unknot further :) ).

Chess is finite with well defined rules albeit inexhaustibly explorable [by beings like us]. The universe could be this way but we may be working out the pieces and moves for some time to come. Even if we arrive at a unified theory based on strings or whatever, how would we know there aren't deeper levels to the game that present themselves in higher energy environments?

This leads me to suspect this story of unity is unlikely to go away even if it has no utility other than halting infinite programs/selves. Though, I am probably just as confused about this whole situation as you. :lol:

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 17111
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by jacob »

daylen wrote:
Wed Apr 23, 2025 5:35 pm
Why not both? Unity as a process of replacing or with and. Embracing paradox may be what unknots the knot (and/or knots the unknot further :) ).
It's too easy to make this declaration (so I call shenanigans). I'm quite aware of the strong resistance towards categories or groupings. However, all that refactoring does is to say that there's 1 category instead of an arbitrarily countable number. To me, this whole both-and is a but way to sound clever without actually being clever. If unitives has something beyond "It's all the same one thing", which I consider a kind of non-explanation on par with "It's God's will", I'd love to hear it.

Otherwise, I interpret this reduction to oneness as a way of losing information. That's fine if it makes the person feel good about themselves, but it isn't telling me anything. To give an example, lets have a collection of polygons that are described in terms of number of edges and color, e.g. ((red, triangle), (blue, square)). Now we drop the color dimension and we're left with ((triangle) (square)). Now we drop the edge count as well and we're left with (() ()). And now we drop the count as well and we have () and everything is one. Wonderful!

Yet, by reducing the construct we've also been reduced to not having any understanding of what we're saying.

I suppose that I'm stuck in the construct while also having the ability to make new arbitrary constructs to fit whatever situation. Yet, this is what the unitive mindset has given up on. Their words suggest that they've found happiness in () ... but if so, I don't see that as an improvement unless they used to have a construct-constructor ability and found that very anxiety-inducing or somesuch. I don't.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 10702
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

For me, moving towards unity is more like when you inhabit the consciousness of any human making the next move in chess, and then any human playing a game, and then any lifeform engaged in anything like a game, etc. IOW, you become egoless in the realization that you are just part of the undulating, expanding, rhythmic pattern, or something like that. Then you go back to doing the work in front of you.

Recent advances in neurology make it fairly likely that technology will soon be able to replicate some of the states previously only attained by advanced meditation practitioners. Who knows what will happen when a significant proportion of the human population has experienced the universe collapsing like a pancake in their consciousness?

bookworm
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:19 pm

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by bookworm »

This relates mainly to Jacob's opening remarks. I composed most of this before reading the contributions from daylen and 7, who wonderfully express many relevant points already in their own unique ways.
Just to establish some rudimentary terms, lets differentiate between the unitive mind, the mindful mind or mindfulness, and the standard "monkey brain".
I would distinguish between concentration (being able to hold attention on breath for X minutes) and mindfulness which is more "choiceless awareness". Generally, you need a well-developed concentration to be able to proceed into mindfulness.

In a Goenka retreat for instance, you do multiple days focused exclusively on "anapana sati" (concentration on breath in the nostril area) followed by multiple days which focus on increasing mindfulness of the body ("body scan"). Similar to the transition from concentration from concentration to mindfulness, you probably need some degree of mindfulness to proceed into unitive states. For various reasons people are able to skip along the C->M->U progression.

There's also controversy in Buddhism on whether you should explore the so-called Jhanas (which for the purposes of discussion I consider to be the same as unitive state) or go straight down the mindfulness path all the way to "enlightenment" (whatever that is, I don't think unitive states are identical to it). My sense here is that the Jhanas are actually quite useful stations along the way, at least for some people. In fact, they might be the whole "path" for some.

I like the MTCTB book by Daniel Ingram for thinking about spiritual maps from a Buddhist perspective. He discusses the Jhanas in some detail, as well as various stages of mindfulness:
https://www.mctb.org/wp-content/uploads ... _Final.pdf
Does this mean that on an individual basis, a unitive state/perspective does not bring about anything beyond a sense or feeling of being content ("everything is right and wonderful and just how it's supposed to be. It's all part of the one.")
I feel like I need a lot of disclaimers up front. I want to say that I'm only basing this on my personal experience and intellectualizing on what happened. I never went to a formal teacher for guidance on it, although I did have some support in a spiritual community when it was shared. It's important to note that my conception of unitive state likely reflects something quite commonplace that is resonant to many other people including some on this forum, although perhaps the duration and frequency differs somewhat from normal(1). It may also be reflective of some kind of clinical disorder. I do feel a sense of reverence and awe that makes me want to be careful talking about these things in any fixed way. I also feel uncomfortable using first-person language to describe unitive states at all, but I see it’s more of a convention towards better understanding. I don't feel particularly attached to the label unitive state, and I could just call it "a powerful form of experience that changes how I view reality in some way that is meaningful and useful for me."

Each person’s experience of unitive states will be unique. It’s like drinking the perfect cocktail tailor-made for your own life situation. I also get the sense that there are multiple gradations on unitive consciousness, and that I am dipping my toes in the shallow water rather than swimming in the much deeper ocean. The early Jhanas have some similarities to the unitive state that I've experienced. The deeper (formless) Jhanas are maybe something that I might have touched for a few moments, but they are far less stable.

I think unitive mode brings you something even at the N=1 level. One thing it might do is to bring all levels of personality into synergistic operation(2). So if you're INTJ, your ESFP shadow might play a nearly equal role in your day to day experience. When I am in a unitive state, the "world of feelings" becomes real and tangible, rather than something that is intellectualized and inferred (which is my usual mode of operation (3)). I can suddenly visualize the “structure” of people’s feelings similarly to how in I can (in normal mode) often see the structure of people’s thoughts when having conversations. This manifests as a strange form of synesthesia that is based on “feeling tones” as well as being able to anticipate what people are about to say remarkably well. I am more externally expressive than normal, if I feel the need to be (4). Similarly, the "world of sensation" (both Si+Se) becomes significantly heightened. I could stare at a flower on the side of a trail for hours on end. (But that might not be appropriate because I would have a strong, almost deterministic sense of purpose as to what needs to be done in the moment). Normal conservation with others goes from trying to efficiently determine truth or falsity / good or bad (generally what I focus on in normal mode) to something far more multi-dimensional. Individual words have their intended meanings for sure and I am able to understand the message, but the full set of associations / overtones are equally accessible in consciousness in a playful way. Compassion for everyone becomes salient as a profound knowing of a being on a thinking and feeling level which is coupled with appropriate action to help them (if that's actually needed in the situation). You become an instrument of the Universe for the present moment in global history, while realizing that everyone else is also an instrument, so nothing special. For this purpose, you get more tools in the toolbox at the personality level and can better address whatever life throws your way, even as N=1 player.

David Hawkin's book resonated with me after a multi-day experience of unitive states:
https://www.amazon.com/Eye-Which-Nothin ... 140194504X
His lasted a lot longer than mine (permanently?). I am not sure exactly what he ended up doing with his unitive state exactly. I think that he continued his practice as a doctor, as well as making some visionary contributions to his field (after a "career break" spending some time as a hermit trying to integrate his experiences). I do get the sense that after his unitive experience he might have gotten caught up in some fields that are close to pseudoscience, but he does seem to have some recognition from mainstream bodies for consensus reality contributions. I did not look into his relationship / romantic conduct, which I do think is relevant to the validity of his claims (see (4)). I think what you “do” with unitive state (level of impact) is based, to some degree, on your skills and capital going into it.

I want to say that I do not think that having access to unitive states prevents you from going down some strange paths that are not globally true/good/beautiful. Of course, the same can be said for mindfulness (kamikaze pilots?) and clearly for ordinary monkey mind.

(1) I am not sure how frequent unitive experiences actually are in the overall population. I get the impression that many people (perhaps not a majority) have had them for short periods , sometimes only a couple of minutes. 49% of US population have had a “mystical experience” according to Pew Research(5). Having long duration experiences is probably relatively rare by an order of magnitude, and "living the unitive" is rarer still. NDEs and psychedelic drug usage seem like two frequent catalyzers. Sex and meditation are a few contributing factors that I’ve seen mentioned. For me - meditation, diet, and exercise bring unitive states on if combined in just the right way, although not reliably.

(2) There are some things about the unitive state that do not find so easily under a personality lens, but I am still wondering how to effectively describe them to others. I feel like the personality frame is more tangible. For example, there seems to be a surprising increase in the frequency of synchronicities that creates some interesting and challenging situations. At certain points, time seems to be slow down rather profoundly, and you feel like you are in eternity.

(3) My thought processes are usually still intact throughout the unitive state and not muddled. For instance, I was able to perform well as "standard office job" duties even while in the middle of a unitive state that lasted multiple workdays. Obviously there is some cognitive load needed towards appropriate masking if you're not in a good environment, but that comes with the territory I think and could be obviated with solitude or supportive community. It's also possible that especially for the first few times coming into unitive states it takes the mind some time to adjust to the new situation where other personality factors are coming online.

(4) As the relatively cold-blooded INtj male that I am, yes, even I have fallen in love before with another person before. :) Unitive state feels felt more falling in love with everyone at once. But not in a creepy or possessive way. It has sexual elements but includes other aspects as well. And it doesn’t have the same “bubbly” nature. It seemed more detached and aloof, while also engaged. I realize that the term falling in love might mean different things to different people.

(5) https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads ... periences/

bookworm
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:19 pm

Re: bookworm's journal

Post by bookworm »

Followup: Daniel Ingram claims that jhanas can be more concentration-oriented versus mindfulness-oriented. So he's claiming that the state progression can be C->U' as well as the original proposal for C->M->U*. I still think it's fine to say jhana = unitive state as long as we understand it's a little more complicated than that (U' is concentration-oriented, U* is mindfulness oriented, but U' and U* share underlying structure represented by U).

In practice, people are likely going to be coming at jhana from a more insight-heavy perspective because of how things are taught in Buddhism 101 so they are likely to get to U* if they get to jhana. But those coming from other traditions might approach things a bit differently where U' might predominate. I felt like my experience was more U'. Just because I'm using the term jhanas which is a Buddhist concept doesn't mean that it can't be applied to spiritualities outside that belief system.

One question is whether map usage aids spiritual discoveries (increased levels of M and U). I think the (too easy?) answer is it depends on the person and their proclivities towards intellectualizing. A starting approach would be to balance practice and theoretical knowledge. So you consult the maps starting out, but then you dive into the meditation/yoga/forest bathing/whatever pool. You come back for air and consult the maps again before a second dive, and so on. In my opinion (which is not original and is based on marinating in my own limited experience and reading people like Ingram), things in Western "spirituality" have become so focused on the practical that a lot of the theoretical aspect has been thrown to the wayside. This was influenced by Green need for equality and acceptance (everyone's always a beginner, we're all ONE so shut up, namaste, etc.)

Another question would be whether there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. What if it's all an elaborate mental game and nothing more. Well, in that case, it's best to lean into the practical and observable world and see if it's making you a better person in some holistic way that includes everyone else. And it might be that for many people the practical argument tells you that life energy is better focused elsewhere which is totally cool.

Post Reply