What is the most important thing in a long term relationship / marriage?

[Henry]

I struggle with the AA model that is based on shared experience and therefore shared sympathy/empathy being the goal of sharing the experience. Everyone is in the same hole so we might as well pass the empathy instead of the bottle. I was watching this video the other day of a young women sitting in a circle sharing experiences such as "I'm 17 and I've had nine abortions" and my first thought was isn't that a bit young to have a vagina with the elasticity of a bowl of soup. But before coming to a conclusion the other young women in the group shouted "We only listen, we do not judge" and then my second thought was maybe therein lies the problem at the soup kitchen.

[7Wannabe5]

@Henry:

Well, then you should be happy with the overwhelming data that indicates that sexual elasticity is very tight and getting tighter these days. More like a block of ice than a bowl of soup. This is largely due to the overwhelming economic success of young women over the last 40 years. There was a brief phase during our youth (think Joan Jett) in which feminine liberation was to some extent expressed as a desire for the sexual freedom that young men had previously enjoyed, but now many more women of all ages are more likely to be found in "I need a man like a fish needs a bicycle" mode. The level of sexual activity of those in their 20s and 30s is now at an all time low across the hundred years or so that the frequency of sexual activity has been measured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li70iz1NaDY

The men on this forum who are currently happily married should cling to their good women like JLF clings to a penny. Seriously, there is nothing out there for you guys (on average anyways.) IOW, the most important thing in a long term relationship if you are a heterosexual male in the 21st century is the bare fact that you still actually have one.

[Western Red Cedar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li70iz1NaDY

The men on this forum who are currently happily married should cling to their good women like JLF clings to a penny. Seriously, there is nothing out there for you guys (on average anyways.) IOW, the most important thing in a long term relationship if you are a heterosexual male in the 21st century is the bare fact that you still actually have one.

I listened to that interview a couple days ago. I'm surprised that this was your takeaway. According to the podcast, women are just as interested in finding men, but are having trouble finding anyone who has their shit together. A core tenant of ERE is getting your shit together.

One of the most important traits women look for in men is kindness. Based on the discussion, I would say to any men looking for a partner - be kind, stay in shape, give generously, develop some expertise and hobbies, maintain a healthy sense of masculinity, focus on EQ, and stay away from dating apps.

[Jean]

If the hobby is plating fromsoft games, she might dislike enough it to threaten breakup during her periods.

[Henry]

There was a brief phase during our youth (think Joan Jett) in which feminine liberation was to some extent expressed as a desire for the sexual freedom

I know this is a general example and not a specific example but although I didn't really understand the concept at that time, there was something about Joan Jett that implied she might be in interested in other types of sexual liberation including but not limited to the more "dangerous" stuff. What came as a shock to me was that the Go Go's, who despite their name gave a girl bandy type of vibe where both me and my girlfriend could enjoy (she would say doesn't Belinda look great and I would pretend it wasn't the material cause for why I was about to dry hump her) were essentially the girl band version of Led Zeppelin when it came to their enjoyment/treatment of male groupies.

Back to empathy in a marriage, it becomes more necessary as you age, otherwise, the men will be returning their bowls of soup for glasses of ice and the women will be returning their spaghetti for cucumber salads. Empathy is requisited to finish the meal you originally asked for.

[7Wannabe5]

I listened to that interview a couple days ago. I'm surprised that this was your takeaway.

I was actually looking for another interview featuring Scott Galloway which gave more emphasis to the current sexual drought, but I couldn't find it. I agree that "having shit together" is the differentiator, that is why I parenthesized "on average." I like Scott Galloway, but I also somewhat disagree with his take that it is all or mostly about the money when it comes to making yourself attractive as a man. I was talking about the contents of this interview with my DD33 and her take, which is also in alignment with mine, is that only men who do have their act together financially are confident enough to date these days. IOW, given the reality that our modern culture is all about the money, it can be difficult to split the difference between the man and his money.

Also, the generational gap in wealth/income has resulted in the fact that the average man in my dating cohort* has way more wealth/income than the average man in the dating cohort of my daughter's many still single female friends. One of the reasons why I am not a grandmother yet is that only maybe 20% of my sociable daughter's many female nerd peers have had children even though they are now approaching 35 (gynecological geriatric zone), and she is in the minority of her peer group that is married. However, she also told me that zero-percent of her friends are desperate enough to start dating much older men, as Scott Galloway also frequently implies is the trend with his commentary along the lines of "For men, 50 is the new 30."

ETA:

One of the most important traits women look for in men is kindness.

Absolutely true, but unfortunately this is somewhat in conflict with the female attraction to what David Deida refers to as the masculine Killer Energy. Basically, this is due to the fact that both oxytocin and vasopressin reinforce kindness within "in group" and not-so-much-kindness towards "out group." One of the reasons peacenik types are often into polyamory is that a conscious focus on "compersion" defined to be the emotional state associated with transcending jealousy tends towards overcoming this oxytocin/vasopressin reinforced tendency towards "territoriality."

So, for example, obviously the woman you are dating will prefer for you to exhibit kindness towards her. She will almost always also prefer that you exhibit kindness towards others such as lost dog, frail old person, young child, and the ugly male waiter who is serving your dinner. However, there may be a limit to how much kindness she would prefer you to exhibit in relationship to the very attractive young waitress who is serving your dinner. She also may not be thrilled about your kind help with changing a tire for your recently divorced sexy neighbor. And it is quite debatable how she might feel about your generosity in giving your first wife an extra $10,000 beyond alimony/child-support so she can do repairs on the home you no longer own, while the two of you are camped out in a one bedroom apartment next to the abandoned strip mall. Etc. etc. etc.


*I really do not filter for wealth/income when I am dating. I mostly filter for literacy and good manners, because I gave up on judging a middle-aged man's looks based on photo almost immediately in my online dating career. Still, I would estimate the combined net worth of my 3 current poly-partners at something over 10 million, and once-again-with-emphasis I am an eccentric chubby nerd and seriously not all that.

[7Wannabe5]

the Go Go's

Have you checked out Sabrina Carpenter? Actually, it is the case that many Gen Z pop icons exude a very free sexuality across many parameters, so it's kind of odd that the actual behavior of this generation does not match this level of exuberant expression.

Back to empathy in a marriage, it becomes more necessary as you age, otherwise, the men will be returning their bowls of soup for glasses of ice and the women will be returning their spaghetti for cucumber salads. Empathy is requisited to finish the meal you originally asked for.

Yes, I agree. Heck, my first marriage came apart on the basis of the 20 lbs. I put on due to pregnancy/breast-feeding.

[Ego]

One of the most important traits women look for in men is kindness. Based on the discussion, I would say to any men looking for a partner - be kind, stay in shape, give generously, develop some expertise and hobbies, maintain a healthy sense of masculinity, focus on EQ, and stay away from dating apps.

One of best heuristics I've found for getting good advice is to consider if the person giving it is walking the talk.

Many of you have not had the good fortune to meet WRC and his DW in person. I have on several occasions. He caught himself a real gem. They obviously have built a relationship where kindness abounds. These are exceptional human beings and you should listen to his advice.

[white belt]

Also, the generational gap in wealth/income has resulted in the fact that the average man in my dating cohort* has way more wealth/income than the average man in the dating cohort of my daughter's many still single female friends. One of the reasons why I am not a grandmother yet is that only maybe 20% of my sociable daughter's many female nerd peers have had children even though they are now approaching 35 (gynecological geriatric zone), and she is in the minority of her peer group that is married. However, she also told me that zero-percent of her friends are desperate enough to start dating much older men, as Scott Galloway also frequently implies is the trend with his commentary along the lines of "For men, 50 is the new 30."

I am of similar age to your daughter and have seen quite a different story in my cohort. If we consider my sample size as the guys I lived with in college as well as a few childhood friends I still hang out with, the numbers breakdown as follows. If I include myself, there are 9 of us. At the moment, 5 are married (2 with pregnant wives), 2 are engaged, and 2 are cohabitating with long term GFs. There is a lawyer, a doctor, an actuary, a journalist, an engineer, a banker/finance type, an operations director, and an insurance salesman for businesses. The least financially secure of them is probably the journalist due to shrinking industry, yet he was actually the first to marry one of his coworkers he met while working in midsized southern city. All of them (except me) have <2 year age gap between them and their partners.

So maybe that is proving your point because my cohort seems to all be gainfully employed?

I also have a pet theory that female nerds in general have a harder time dating because they want a guy who is at least intellectual peer and also has the masculine killer instinct* you describe. Outside of the smart for a jock or fit for a nerd categorization, it doesn’t seem like a commonplace overlap. Maybe the information is better these days, but when I was growing up there was also a ton of pop culture influence that pushed nerdy guys towards nice guy syndrome.

* = I rate myself as a ~7-8 on the 10 point masculine killer scale, which means in a typical room I’m probably towards that end of the spectrum. My career brought me in contact with plenty of men who have personally killed others so I’m not inclined to place myself higher than that. I’ve almost certainly enabled some deaths but there was always some degree of separation.

[Henry]

My career brought me in contact with plenty of men who have personally killed others so I’m not inclined to place myself higher than that. I’ve almost certainly enabled some deaths but there was always some degree of separation.

This makes me think why there aren't more members of costa nostra represented on the board.

[7Wannabe5]

One of best heuristics I've found for getting good advice is to consider if the person giving it is walking the talk

I absolutely agree that kindness is essential and also ultimately becomes the most essential component of long-term relationship. Believe it or not, the likely primary reason my relationships with my current poly-partners are of at least 8 years duration is that I am often mistaken for a very kind human in real life, because my tertiary Fe adult feminine energy ( represented by spirit animal The Deer, somewhat in the form of Bambi’s mother) squidges out all over the place too much. For example, even if my current take on a partner is “God, you are an azzhole! I am out of here!”, I can’t not take care of him if he is sick.

I think there is an extent to which kindness is innate and varies across the population, and this would be roughly represented by the proportion of your spirit animals which are herbivorous mammals. My spirit animals are The Deer, The Bunny, The Monkey, and The Snowy Owl. Usually if I want to leave a relationship, it is because my perception is that he is being unkind to The Bunny and/or The Monkey feels trapped/bored/unable-to-express-self. But, I will be unable to leave unless I rise up into my own adult masculine “Killer” Snowy Owl energy.

It is also the case that most humans, whatever their baseline, become kinder with age, maturity, development through adulthood. However, there are also particular known differing reasons why humans are more or less likely to exhibit kindness in relationship to members of the other gender and often these are related to perception of their fulfillment of gender role. So, perversely, it may be easier for a woman to be kind in relationship to a masculine asshole than a not-masculine nice-guy. And it is also quite evident that often not-yet-fully-mature men will believe that a woman “can do no wrong” simply because she has a very pretty face.

Ergo, when somebody is inherently masculine and pretty, like yourself, it may be difficult to comprehend why modeling the next step behaviors such as conscious kindness do not work as well for those who are not innately masculine and/or pretty. IOW, all I’m saying is that the order of operation has to be masculinity first, kindness second, or you are going to be falling into a deep black hole in relationship to every pretty woman you encounter. However, it may not be so necessary to make this point on this forum, because INTJ is not a type that usually has great difficulty with conveying masculinity if/when they bother to emerge from laboratory or outback.

The most terrible example I can think of is that one of my mother’s sorority sisters was married to the same man for 50 years. One day she felt compelled to tell him that she had noticed that he was being grouchier and less kind to her than previously had been his habit. And his response was a nasty, “Well, you aren’t the girl you used to be, are you?” IOW, after 5 decades of marriage, he was no longer inclined to behave kindly towards her, because now she had become a wrinkly, unattractive old woman. And this tracks with the statistic that 22% of men will leave their wife when she becomes terminally ill, but only 3% of women will leave their terminally ill husband.

[7Wannabe5]

I also have a pet theory that female nerds in general have a harder time dating because they want a guy who is at least intellectual peer and also has the masculine killer instinct* you describe.

Yes, and also because men who primarily pride themselves on their intellect prefer women who are intelligent/intellectual, but somewhat less so than they are (like Sherlock Homes and Watson.) Academic types like women who have money, especially trust fund money, because they make less money than they think they deserve. They do not want a wife who gains tenure if/when they don't. And if an Academic type man does have his own money and/or tenure, he will usually prefer a wife who is a good housekeeper type, so he never again has to be bothered with anything practical at all ( like Sherlock Holmes and Mrs. Hudson) So, female nerds will often pair up with "smart for a jock" or "smart for the street" types who earn their masculinity stripes elsewhere. I refer to this as "riding consigliere" in relationship.

Also, I might have more accurately described my DD33's social circle as artsy/nerdy, and her nerdier friends are more likely to be married than her artsier friends. However, this is in part due to the fact my daughter's university was in the Ivy League of the South, so her nerdiest friends are also from this weird nerdy branch of Southern Debutante culture, while her artsier friends are more from the culture of Level Yellow Northern University Town Where Hanzi Would Likely Live if He Was Exiled to U.S.

I rate myself as a ~7-8 on the 10 point masculine killer scale, which means in a typical room I’m probably towards that end of the spectrum. My career brought me in contact with plenty of men who have personally killed others so I’m not inclined to place myself higher than that. I’ve almost certainly enabled some deaths but there was always some degree of separation.

Just to make the concept clear for others, masculine "killer" energy need not involve actual killing in any way, except to the extent that your lifestyle contains aspects of Primitive Survival Culture (must kill bison to survive the winter) or Level Red Warrior Culture (must kill other for survival of tribe/nation.) At Level Orange, it might simply involve "making a killing on the stock market." At Level Yellow, it would involve being aware of these lower levels and consciously choosing some aspects of "killer" to exhibit along with the aspects of your feminine functioning, such as conscious kindness or empathetic listening or aesthetic sensitivity, you got in self-aware touch with your own internal feminine at Level Green. However, I absolutely would not advise the wearing of eyeliner and tight pants as Level Green ->Level Yellow moves appropriate for all masculine body and/or personality types.

[Western Red Cedar]

I absolutely agree that kindness is essential and also ultimately becomes the most essential component of long-term relationship. Believe it or not, the

What I wrote above was a synopsis of the advice in the DOAC podcast, and was geared towards men pursuing relationships discussed by the group. But, kindness is definitely a solid bedrock for a healthy, long-term relationship.

One interesting point the panel brought up was that, based on survey results, women say they valued masculinity in a partner less than they used to. However, they thought that didn't track with what women actually want when they get in a relationship. I'd probably agree with that notion based on what I've seen among friends.

The reason I responded initially was that it sounds like there are a lot of great women out there who aren't having luck finding men. Men who lean into ERE should be at an advantage due to intellect, physical health, financial stability and a broad range of interests. They just need to make sure to get outside and make an effort. I found it funny that you came away with almost the opposite view.

[7Wannabe5]

One interesting point the panel brought up was that, based on survey results, women say they valued masculinity in a partner less than they used to. However, they thought that didn't track with what women actually want when they get in a relationship. I'd probably agree with that notion based on what I've seen among friends.

Yes, they don't want less masculinity, but they also don't want just old school masculinity, or even worse that sleazy faux neo-masculinity. For better or worse, the observation of Level Yellow/Turquoise relationship gurus I've read is that women are market-basket shoppers and they continuously demand more and more higher quality goods in their relationship order. Meanwhile, the "poor" men, no matter their level, are still mostly just shopping for "pretty' with a side of "not too dumb" and "will kindly agree to grant me access to the goodies."

The reason I responded initially was that it sounds like there are a lot of great women out there who aren't having luck finding men.

Yes, that was the takeaway from the female guest on the videocast. However, I don't believe this is true, but that might be because I find the market conditions pretty much like shooting fish in a barrel. But this might be because (1) I am less picky and/or demanding than most women, or (2) I am actually super-hawt and in all other ways super-fantastic but suffer from crippling low self-esteem, or (3) it varies a good deal depending upon age bracket or locale, or (4) chubby, spacey, eccentric, somewhat obnoxious nerd is the secret sauce men don't know how much they want until they get some; "Once you go 7 with a side of 5, a 10 looks like a binary 2, and a lay subjects a lie."

That said, I do agree that the men of ERE are likely to be prime contenders in any market circumstances, I was just erring on the side of caution in case there are some more low-functioning "nice guy' types following along. To describe this aspect of market basket preference in most blunt and graphic terms; the juncture at which many women will most appreciate your gesture of kindness is when you assist her in putting her brains back into their casing after you have fucked them out of her head.

[blink2ce]

Yes, they don't want less masculinity, but they also don't want just old school masculinity, or even worse that sleazy faux neo-masculinity. For better or worse, the observation of Level Yellow/Turquoise relationship gurus I've read is that women are market-basket shoppers and they continuously demand more and more higher quality goods in their relationship order.

I don't understand what this means. What is "women are market-basket shoppers and they continuously demand more and more higher quality goods in their relationship order"? Is this referring to the concept of hypergamy?

[7Wannabe5]

What is "women are market-basket shoppers and they continuously demand more and more higher quality goods in their relationship order"? Is this referring to the concept of hypergamy?

No, it does not refer to hypergamy. It means that women shop for more qualities than men. Men mostly shop for physical attractiveness with kindness and intelligence of more distant secondary or tertiary importance. Women shop for status, masculinity, kindness, intelligence, and physical attractiveness in more moderate balance, although status tends towards being most important. When short-term shopping, men also look for signs of sexual availability. When long-term shopping men also look for indications of chastity. When short-term shopping women up their preference for masculinity and physical attractiveness. However, women are almost always simultaneously shopping for long-term along with short-term.

Because women shop for status they are also more sensitive to signaling in alignment with level of development or cultural milieu. For extreme example, if modern Western woman fell out of her helicopter into primitive tribal environment, she wouldn't likely feel honored to be courted by the highest status male in the primitive tribe.

[lillo9546]

stay away from dating apps.

You become a very good man, a "good match".
Now, How do we make sure the good match have enough and good exposure to other people?

Many of you have not had the good fortune to meet WRC and his DW in person. I have on several occasions. He caught himself a real gem. They obviously have built a relationship where kindness abounds. These are exceptional human beings and you should listen to his advice.

Who are those people you're talking about?

[Ego]

Who are those people you're talking about?

@Western Red Cedar

[Henry]

I start with until death do you part. My wife and I discuss our deaths together or alone. Together is what we hope for. My father's parents whom I never met died within hours of each other from the broker heart thing. I guess that qualifies as a distant second. I believe I am older than they were they died. When we talk about my death, I provide practical guidance in terms of what to do like that day. Anything afterwards, that's God. When we talk about her death, I just say I'll move to Maine or some shit because I can't deal with it. If your dog, brother, sister, mother houseplant, dream, friend, car battery died, take it somewhere else. But if your father died, I actually might be a good person to talk to unless I check my personal shitlist and see that he's on it. If your wife died, I don't know. I don't want to go there because I still got time with that and I don't really want to do a practice run. True kindness in a marriage has to be imbued with empathy. If your wife lives long enough that she's now tripping on her own tits, you can use it as an excuse not to mow the grass (asshole) , buy her a new piece of jewelry (sympathy), or consider the astronomical jam you are going to be in when she's no longer there(empathy).

[IlliniDave]

For some reason I occasionally pop in on threads of this general theme and usually come to the conclusion that I should probably tailor my future plans to the most likely outcome, that being a largely solo path. Life has surprised me before, so there's a never-say-never element to that conclusion, but the odds are what they are.

Not long ago I listened to a short discussion that came up in another context about what, when you look at it from broad demographic perspective, women tend to find "attractive" in a man. (not to say every woman conforms to this). In order of importance, and paraphrasing because I don't have a photographic memory, they are:

1. They signal future (not necessarily current) resource availability.
2. They signal intelligence (and humor is an effective way to display that)
3. They display genuine kindness. That one's tricky--the kindness that's important is respectful and kind treatment of family and friends and those who might be in a temporarily ~subservient position (like the wait staff in a restaurant), but not so much that they signal being a pushover.

When I heard that my first thought was that it sounded like something Jordan Peterson might say from the perspective of someone steeped in psychology research, which to me doesn't automatically discredit it.

All that stuff was then connected to biological evolution in ways that should be obvious. I get that such a framing is controversial in our modern society where we no longer face all the daily challenges nature evolved us to overcome and succeed as a species. But as sophisticated as we get, we can't shuck the leftover reptile brain completely.

Those things aren't that far off from some of what is being said here: have your shit together (signal future access to resources), be interesting (signal intelligence), be kind but signal a killer instinct (be kind to those nearest but don't be a pushover).

So that's sort of what it takes to get on the radar of the widest swath of potential partners, assuming you genuinely have those characteristics--it's just a matter of communicating them in an effective way.

From there it's probably a matter of delivering on those signals (those of them the potential mate keys on) in whatever nuanced way dovetails best with a potential partner once identified. It's not a static thing and requires a lot of listening and genuine attempts to see things from the partner's perspective, which isn't always as easy as it sounds across genders. Gender archetypes are useful as a starting point, but few people you'll actually meet conform to them in their distilled summary form, especially given we live in a world that has some key differences from the milieu we evolved under, and often face social pressure to snuff out the leftover remnants of our reptile brains, which also isn't easy.

Of course, I don't have the walk-the-talk credentials Ego mentioned, but I was a young person once who made a good faith effort at partnering, albeit a failed one. And that's in a nutshell what I learned from the experience.

The elephant in my room is that it's very difficult for me to articulate what I would want in a life partner when I try to think about it in terms that extend beyond the reptile brain wiring, or reducing it to transactional terms.

So boiling it all down I'd say the most important things are understanding yourself, and understanding a prospective partner as best you can, and remember it's an ongoing effort since if succeessful, both partners will grow from the pairing.