Instead of derailing Jacob's second journal, I thought I'd pose the question here. Everything he said made sense, but I wonder if turning something you (presumably) love doing into a business takes the pleasure out of it. I was approached again yesterday by someone who thought I should find a way to turn my cooking into a business. It always intrigues me since I love cooking, but I'm afraid I won't like it anymore if I *have* to do it. How can you tell?
Or is it just inevitable that if you're an intellectual nomad (as Jacob described on the purgatory thread) eventually everything you do will become "work" and seem tedious?
Is turning your hobby into a vocation a good idea?
I've had the opportunity to turn my hobby into my profession. However I did so purposefully and it was really great for three years before it fell apart catastrophically. However, I don't think the failure was in turning my craft into a job, but my inexperience in growing a business.
I made chainmaille jewelry from silver wire and bright aluminum. I cut, coiled and sawed my own rings with the best equipment. However I recognized that making a living from the end product was nigh impossible, so I sold the rings, tools, kits and instructions on how to make them. They sold like hot cakes. However, making jumprings is a surprisingly skilled and dangerous business. I couldn't afford to hire or trust someone else to do it. So everything went great until I burned out from working 14 hour days every day of the year, no vacations, no time off, no benefits. My suggestion is that if you turn your craft into your business to have a plan for more than just how to pay the bills. You need to have a plan for everything, including how to grow if you become very successful in a short amount of time. I did this at 23, so I probably would do better if I tried again now, 10 years later. I'm now selling hobby tools and supplies on ebay part time, but I'm afraid to go full in again.
My husband is a fantastic gourmet chef. Many people have recommended that he turn it into his job, but the working conditions in a kitchen are frequently terrible. What is done one hour a day is a joy, but 8+ hours can be torture. The only way I would encourage him to cook as a profession would be to make a custom weekly meal for wealthy clients who want healthful home-cooked meals, but don't have time to prepare them for themselves. I think this is an untapped market. Restaurants currently fill this niche but aren't very healthy or time efficient. An inexpensive "on call" chef could be as cheap as a personal trainer and make a week's worth of healthful meals in just a few hours if great variety was not needed.
I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about my experience.
I made chainmaille jewelry from silver wire and bright aluminum. I cut, coiled and sawed my own rings with the best equipment. However I recognized that making a living from the end product was nigh impossible, so I sold the rings, tools, kits and instructions on how to make them. They sold like hot cakes. However, making jumprings is a surprisingly skilled and dangerous business. I couldn't afford to hire or trust someone else to do it. So everything went great until I burned out from working 14 hour days every day of the year, no vacations, no time off, no benefits. My suggestion is that if you turn your craft into your business to have a plan for more than just how to pay the bills. You need to have a plan for everything, including how to grow if you become very successful in a short amount of time. I did this at 23, so I probably would do better if I tried again now, 10 years later. I'm now selling hobby tools and supplies on ebay part time, but I'm afraid to go full in again.
My husband is a fantastic gourmet chef. Many people have recommended that he turn it into his job, but the working conditions in a kitchen are frequently terrible. What is done one hour a day is a joy, but 8+ hours can be torture. The only way I would encourage him to cook as a profession would be to make a custom weekly meal for wealthy clients who want healthful home-cooked meals, but don't have time to prepare them for themselves. I think this is an untapped market. Restaurants currently fill this niche but aren't very healthy or time efficient. An inexpensive "on call" chef could be as cheap as a personal trainer and make a week's worth of healthful meals in just a few hours if great variety was not needed.
I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about my experience.
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George the original one
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For cooking buffs, you can teach cooking classes rather than work in a restaurant. The format I've seen is that as the teacher, you chatter about what you're cooking & answer questions and everybody ends up eating what you've cooked. The students go away with a fine meal, the recipes, and memories of how it was prepared. 5-15 people.
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George the original one
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jennypenny
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I guess I was asking about turning hobbies into a business (not necessarily cooking).
"Now, how do I feel about turning a hobby into an income? Not all that happy" See, that's how I think I'd feel too. When I read Mirwen's and DTL's questions, I realized that my cooking is for me, not for other people. The minute someone told me what I had to cook or how I'd be unhappy. I guess this is why Jacob's example struck a chord with me. He might like building furniture for himself or friends/family, but might lose interest when it's for other people who start telling him how they want it done. I wouldn't want to ruin a hobby I enjoyed by turning it into a business.
I think if I tried it I'd like to teach people in high school and college to cook (and do a corresponding ERE-type cookbook). Eating out seems like a big waste of money in your 20s so helping them learn to cook would help them with ERE. I'm already compiling recipes that my kids could make in their dorm rooms or a shared apartment with no real kitchen. At least that would fit in with my value system (as opposed to making my Stepford neighbors a dinner because their botox appointment ran long).
"Now, how do I feel about turning a hobby into an income? Not all that happy" See, that's how I think I'd feel too. When I read Mirwen's and DTL's questions, I realized that my cooking is for me, not for other people. The minute someone told me what I had to cook or how I'd be unhappy. I guess this is why Jacob's example struck a chord with me. He might like building furniture for himself or friends/family, but might lose interest when it's for other people who start telling him how they want it done. I wouldn't want to ruin a hobby I enjoyed by turning it into a business.
I think if I tried it I'd like to teach people in high school and college to cook (and do a corresponding ERE-type cookbook). Eating out seems like a big waste of money in your 20s so helping them learn to cook would help them with ERE. I'm already compiling recipes that my kids could make in their dorm rooms or a shared apartment with no real kitchen. At least that would fit in with my value system (as opposed to making my Stepford neighbors a dinner because their botox appointment ran long).
I would think that it would be a good thing if you could swing it. But there is a specific tension between hobbies and businesses.
To be successful, a business has to be focused on what customers want, not on what the business person wishes to create. A hobby reverses that. Rarely are those two things exactly the same, and often not for very long.
Only very well established businesses with high profile brands or with clever "Edward Bernays-style" marketing campaigns can "create demand" for products and services that are not already being demanded. That's why brands like Apple are so valuable. They've "trained" a group of consumers to buy anything "Apple" like Pavlov's dogs.
We're all here because we are essentially untrainable -- like wolves.
To be successful, a business has to be focused on what customers want, not on what the business person wishes to create. A hobby reverses that. Rarely are those two things exactly the same, and often not for very long.
Only very well established businesses with high profile brands or with clever "Edward Bernays-style" marketing campaigns can "create demand" for products and services that are not already being demanded. That's why brands like Apple are so valuable. They've "trained" a group of consumers to buy anything "Apple" like Pavlov's dogs.
We're all here because we are essentially untrainable -- like wolves.
IMO, it depends on the type of hobby.
If you want to turn a physical skill (like running or martial arts) into a business, that often involves teaching others. Some would say teaching is a natural progression in the mastery of a skill. However, it can very quickly turn into hand holding people that want to buy success, but are not actually prepared to do the work.
If you want to turn a creative skill (like cooking or music or art) into a business, that can involve teaching or serving others. When serving others, once you start putting a price on your work, the door is open for heavy criticism. You may also get praise, buy many will just expect your best work with no compliment, because hey, they just paid you. I know little about the trades, but I imagine they fall in this group.
When you get into more analytical skills, like computer programming or engineering or research, I think you need to find a sponosr to participate on the higher levels. The resources required are expensive and producing something awesome depends on working with a solid team. Typically, that will mean taking on a job somewhere.
IMO - turning any hobby into a largely profitable business has very little do with the hobby. At that point, you are comitting to run a business. If that is something you want, be prepared to work hard and have fun. Understand that sooner or later, you will have almost nothing to do with the actual hobby part of the business. Your employees will have to take that work from you, so you can focus on creating a profitable company.
There's alway blogging or making an instructional site, but again, if money is the goal, your focus becomes running the website. The hobby becomes nothing more than content.
If you want to turn a physical skill (like running or martial arts) into a business, that often involves teaching others. Some would say teaching is a natural progression in the mastery of a skill. However, it can very quickly turn into hand holding people that want to buy success, but are not actually prepared to do the work.
If you want to turn a creative skill (like cooking or music or art) into a business, that can involve teaching or serving others. When serving others, once you start putting a price on your work, the door is open for heavy criticism. You may also get praise, buy many will just expect your best work with no compliment, because hey, they just paid you. I know little about the trades, but I imagine they fall in this group.
When you get into more analytical skills, like computer programming or engineering or research, I think you need to find a sponosr to participate on the higher levels. The resources required are expensive and producing something awesome depends on working with a solid team. Typically, that will mean taking on a job somewhere.
IMO - turning any hobby into a largely profitable business has very little do with the hobby. At that point, you are comitting to run a business. If that is something you want, be prepared to work hard and have fun. Understand that sooner or later, you will have almost nothing to do with the actual hobby part of the business. Your employees will have to take that work from you, so you can focus on creating a profitable company.
There's alway blogging or making an instructional site, but again, if money is the goal, your focus becomes running the website. The hobby becomes nothing more than content.
@Jenny -- when I was in college, I had something called "The Starving Student's Cookbook". I think we still have it at home somewhere. It had a bunch of really simple idiot-proof recipes.
I just Googled it and it seems to still be popular. So there is definitely a market for your idea -- and probably more so these days.
I just Googled it and it seems to still be popular. So there is definitely a market for your idea -- and probably more so these days.
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LiquidSapphire
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I know of a local class that helps cancer patients (but anyone is welcome) cook recipes that help them heal up and are very healthy. The teacher is a two-time cancer survivor and loves to cook, and the students are always interested and eager to learn. Each week she actually cooks 3 recipes, and then everyone gets to taste them, and everyone takes the recipes home. She talks about which ingredients are good, which are bad, and where one can find the "good" ones (something I actually find challenging at times.)
I know you have some medical issues in your family; are any of them helped through diet? That could be a win win, something you are passionate about and you get to help others struggling with the same issue.
I know you have some medical issues in your family; are any of them helped through diet? That could be a win win, something you are passionate about and you get to help others struggling with the same issue.
Business headaches always follow business, as does overhead. Even if you keep overhead low you wind up chasing it; from there the hobby becomes a relentlesss money hunt. Add payroll and labor law compliance and managing people and the business can consume you.
Food is especially troublesome. There is regulatory compliance and fines if you don't comply, food allergies and peanut segregation, special diets and low sodium, not to mention the war of the Vegans and Paleos. If someone gets sick within a week of eating your food, you will probably be blamed for it; perhaps even blamed for a spike in chlorestorol months later.
And there's compromising the food to cater to taste. Here is a classic Lenny Henry dressing down of a customer who dared ask for salt before tasting the dish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MixYRIUzVXs
Food is especially troublesome. There is regulatory compliance and fines if you don't comply, food allergies and peanut segregation, special diets and low sodium, not to mention the war of the Vegans and Paleos. If someone gets sick within a week of eating your food, you will probably be blamed for it; perhaps even blamed for a spike in chlorestorol months later.
And there's compromising the food to cater to taste. Here is a classic Lenny Henry dressing down of a customer who dared ask for salt before tasting the dish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MixYRIUzVXs
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Posthumane
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I think certain hobbies can be turned into a "business" and still be enjoyable. However, I put business in quotes because I think you have to look at it differently than a traditional business. In a traditional business your goal is making money and you work to maximize your profit. This ultimately waters down your enjoyment of the hobby when it becomes something you have to do, instead of something you feel like doing.
So, in my opinion, if you want to keep your hobby enjoyable you should focus on doing it for yourself (like you always have) and then think about making money off of the product after the fact. For example, if you enjoy making furniture then make the furniture that you would like to have. Keep making things that you like even when you have more than you need, and then when you have an excess, sell those pieces online. This way you weren't making the furniture for someone, but you can still profit off of someone's enjoyment of your work.
This is the difference between "artists" such as painters, and "graphic designers" such as those working for magazines. One works on something they like and then tries to sell it after the fact, and the other works on something at someone's request and caters to their desires. The artist is usually much less successful from a financial/business point of view, but often enjoys the work a lot more.
This approach can only be applied to certain hobbies where there is a product which can be sold independently of its creation. I don't know how it would work with cooking. Music can be recorded and sold, physical durable items stocked and sold (perhaps on ebay), intellectual property can be written down and sold as e-books, etc.
So, in my opinion, if you want to keep your hobby enjoyable you should focus on doing it for yourself (like you always have) and then think about making money off of the product after the fact. For example, if you enjoy making furniture then make the furniture that you would like to have. Keep making things that you like even when you have more than you need, and then when you have an excess, sell those pieces online. This way you weren't making the furniture for someone, but you can still profit off of someone's enjoyment of your work.
This is the difference between "artists" such as painters, and "graphic designers" such as those working for magazines. One works on something they like and then tries to sell it after the fact, and the other works on something at someone's request and caters to their desires. The artist is usually much less successful from a financial/business point of view, but often enjoys the work a lot more.
This approach can only be applied to certain hobbies where there is a product which can be sold independently of its creation. I don't know how it would work with cooking. Music can be recorded and sold, physical durable items stocked and sold (perhaps on ebay), intellectual property can be written down and sold as e-books, etc.
I must disagree with some of what has been said. If you plan on turning a hobby into a business and want to keep the enjoyment you need to pay attention to your needs and desires, and not the customers.
Plus, as Steve Jobs says, "A lot of times, people don’t know what they want until you show it to them." People are idiots, as we discuss on here all the time.
Many people that start a business from a hobby do it for "love" and fail to price it properly. If you only plan on having your hobby become a side business then lower demand by pricing it high.
I have lived out one my hobbies/loves as a profession by coaching college football. The killer hours (7 days a week 10-12 hours a day) made it more like a regular job, but with poor pay. I will coach again, but it will be when I don't need the money so I can control it...and enjoy it.
Plus, as Steve Jobs says, "A lot of times, people don’t know what they want until you show it to them." People are idiots, as we discuss on here all the time.
Many people that start a business from a hobby do it for "love" and fail to price it properly. If you only plan on having your hobby become a side business then lower demand by pricing it high.
I have lived out one my hobbies/loves as a profession by coaching college football. The killer hours (7 days a week 10-12 hours a day) made it more like a regular job, but with poor pay. I will coach again, but it will be when I don't need the money so I can control it...and enjoy it.
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Canadian Dream
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I agree with Posthumane points. Creative type hobbies can have two types of work with it: creative that may not pay (but you like to do it) and more commerical products (which tend to pay, but may not be that creative). In order to shift a hobby into a business you need to do accept some more commerical work. As long as you accept that upfront there isn't an issue with doing that kind of work. After all more commerical work can help fund doing more creative work. For example, doing some freelance writing to fund time off to work on your novel project.
The trick to keeping a hobby fun is not to give all your time to just commerical work. You need some fun time or projects that may have no value, but you enjoy it. I know I struggle with this myself on writing...I tend to do the commerical work first and sometimes don't leave enough time to do the fun writing. If I do that for two long I end up falling into a burn out situation. The creative work really does fuel the passion for your hobby, so you need to understand that and keep doing some of it.
The trick to keeping a hobby fun is not to give all your time to just commerical work. You need some fun time or projects that may have no value, but you enjoy it. I know I struggle with this myself on writing...I tend to do the commerical work first and sometimes don't leave enough time to do the fun writing. If I do that for two long I end up falling into a burn out situation. The creative work really does fuel the passion for your hobby, so you need to understand that and keep doing some of it.
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jacob
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It's tricky ... I think we need to differentiate two points or at least consider things on a sliding scale ...
Do you need the money or not?
If you do, turning your hobby into a vocation means compromising in order to make money/succeed. If what you have to compromise is part of what makes the hobby interesting, it can turn your hobby into something terrible. That's kinda what happened to me with physics. I kinda thought of my research as the holy grail of perfection (how I arrived at the result was as important as the graph) and my writing as the next American novel,... or at least more than most. And then it turned into a business of maximizing production of just-good-enough-to-be-published research.
On the other hand, if you have enough FU-money so you don't have to compromise/can write your own rules/stand up to the system as some on this board can, turning your hobby into work is a beautiful thing!!
There's just so much more one can do with the resources of a business compared to what a single individual can do at home in the basement.
Anyhow, what I meant by "turning a hobby into a business" was not so much a "profit-maximizing" structure but more of a 1) doing something together with others (even if you never meet them, you're still connected) and 2) doing something for others. These are just my personal motivations ... they don't necessarily apply universally.
Do you need the money or not?
If you do, turning your hobby into a vocation means compromising in order to make money/succeed. If what you have to compromise is part of what makes the hobby interesting, it can turn your hobby into something terrible. That's kinda what happened to me with physics. I kinda thought of my research as the holy grail of perfection (how I arrived at the result was as important as the graph) and my writing as the next American novel,... or at least more than most. And then it turned into a business of maximizing production of just-good-enough-to-be-published research.
On the other hand, if you have enough FU-money so you don't have to compromise/can write your own rules/stand up to the system as some on this board can, turning your hobby into work is a beautiful thing!!
There's just so much more one can do with the resources of a business compared to what a single individual can do at home in the basement.
Anyhow, what I meant by "turning a hobby into a business" was not so much a "profit-maximizing" structure but more of a 1) doing something together with others (even if you never meet them, you're still connected) and 2) doing something for others. These are just my personal motivations ... they don't necessarily apply universally.
My advise is as long as you need the money, just start on a sidebusiness. When you`ve got your FU money together you could go fulltime and see if you still enjoy it.
There is one thing you cant overcome until you are financial independent and thats you`ll have to make compromises in order to make money. Earlier or later this will bring your hobby more and more in to a regular job.
There is one thing you cant overcome until you are financial independent and thats you`ll have to make compromises in order to make money. Earlier or later this will bring your hobby more and more in to a regular job.
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aussierogue
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George the original one
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I think side income is good, business is bad. Try building a following or community of people who appreciate your art/craft/whatever, and then when you feel like making some to sell or giving some lessons you can just put the word out.
jennypenny there were two sisters in the town where I grew up who loved to bake. They started a summer food cart thing with cinnamon rolls and stuff that were really really really good. They worked their asses off 3 months/year for less than ten years and sold it for way more than enough to retire on.
jennypenny there were two sisters in the town where I grew up who loved to bake. They started a summer food cart thing with cinnamon rolls and stuff that were really really really good. They worked their asses off 3 months/year for less than ten years and sold it for way more than enough to retire on.
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jennypenny
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This is really helpful. Sometimes I have trouble focusing or articulating my thoughts about something. It's funny because I'm a good editor and I can grind other people's thoughts down until they're razor sharp. My own? Not so much.
I don't need to make money on this. If my investing doesn't make enough I'll just take on some editing jobs. I find it easier to charge for editing. Maybe because it's easy to price--pages, reads, coding, etc. Maybe it's because I'm more confident in my editing ability.
I like LS's idea about special diets. That's how the topic came up again. My hairdresser's daughter isn't gaining weight because of a condition she has. I started writing down some suggestions and I had several pages done before she finished doing my hair. We have two specific diets I have to address here (one is high salt/high fat/high calorie, the other is paleo-ish) so I'm really good at modifying recipes without spending too much money or cooking different dinners for everyone. We also have a serious athlete who consumes over 4000 calories per day and I work hard to accomplish that without resorting to twinkies.
I already have part of the no-kitchen cookbook written for my kids so I'll keep working on that. I'm also good at modifying recipes just to make them cheaper. I try and get the same result with 5 ingredients instead of 10, or with a cheaper cut of meat, or through batch cooking. Maybe I'll put more of those on the wiki.
I think I'll stick with my personal cooking interests and see where it leads me.
I don't need to make money on this. If my investing doesn't make enough I'll just take on some editing jobs. I find it easier to charge for editing. Maybe because it's easy to price--pages, reads, coding, etc. Maybe it's because I'm more confident in my editing ability.
I like LS's idea about special diets. That's how the topic came up again. My hairdresser's daughter isn't gaining weight because of a condition she has. I started writing down some suggestions and I had several pages done before she finished doing my hair. We have two specific diets I have to address here (one is high salt/high fat/high calorie, the other is paleo-ish) so I'm really good at modifying recipes without spending too much money or cooking different dinners for everyone. We also have a serious athlete who consumes over 4000 calories per day and I work hard to accomplish that without resorting to twinkies.
I already have part of the no-kitchen cookbook written for my kids so I'll keep working on that. I'm also good at modifying recipes just to make them cheaper. I try and get the same result with 5 ingredients instead of 10, or with a cheaper cut of meat, or through batch cooking. Maybe I'll put more of those on the wiki.
I think I'll stick with my personal cooking interests and see where it leads me.