Marriage: how to maintain it

[Henry]

When he could still walk, I saw this video of Jimmy Carter walking down the aisle of an airplane and all the passengers broke out into spontaneous applause. It was very touching, and I felt, patriotic, as everyone on board could look past the whole shitty President thing and see a really good man. I fully anticipate that I will receive the same treatment when I walk into my supermarket for the last time. Godspeed Jimmy.

[chenda]

He was devoutly Christian, and I bet he wanted more than anything to outlast her. I tell people this all time.

You mean on the basis he will meet her in heaven ?

My dad met Jimmy Carter once. He was working as a barman in Georgia back in the 1970s, whilst doing visa runs to Bermuda, and Jimmy dropped by looking for a beer, and some presumably some votes.

[Henry]

You mean on the basis he will meet her in heaven ?

My dad met Jimmy Carter once. He was working as a barman in Georgia back in the 1970s, whilst doing visa runs to Bermuda, and Jimmy dropped by looking for a beer, and some presumably some votes.

For a devoutly Christian couple, married over seventy five years with Jimmy teaching Sunday school into his 90's, I'm assuming they believed in the creation narrative of Genesis. I don't know if they held to seven days or not, but I'm confident they believed in the Adam and Eve story. It's not doctrine, but viewed through the heuristic of good and necessary consequence, the one who came first and from whom the other came to be, should be the one to die last.

But then again, I never had the good fortune to share a Billy Beer with Jimmy, so what the fuck do I know.

[Saltation]

For all those in stable, long-term marriages and relationships where you are truly happy: Is your relationship more love/hate so excitement comes from anxiety of loss, or anxiety in general, or friendship/comfort so excitement comes from having security and just company with this person?

Marriage (as commonly constructed) is mostly self-selecting in the idea of having intimacy/security/company with one person. Any anxiety of loss is predicated on the future dissolution of the institution. I'm not certain how a stable relationship can be built on anxiety (anxiety itself is inherently unstable). The real challenge of marriage is learning to adult well and when challenges culminate you have a long-form discussion on solving the problem using logic in relation to your value system. Understanding the temperament of your spouse and vise versa goes a long way in solving many minor communication problems (that turn into large problems when unresolved). Understanding your individual value(s) hierarchy stack and being mindful of conflicts within both persons value stacks and integrating them is where success occurs.

[Henry]

You are right. I am sorry. Those pants don't make your ass look fat. I'm sure Jimmy used them on Rosalynn many times throughout the years.

[lillo9546]

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Thanks for your answers! Of course, input from others is also welcome! (I know that there are many other participants on this forum who are happily in long-term relationships, and it would be good to hear about their experiences)

We know that the best lessons are learned from life experiences.
What I see every day is that there are two types of LTRs: those described above.

Why this question? It would be ideal to understand how healthy people deal with circumstances. As told above, in case 1, someone creates anxiety to keep the other person with them. When the woman disrespects the man, he uses a special behaviour to create anxiety in her, to make her remain attached.
In case 2, when the woman disrespects the man, he uses communication, telling her how he was hurt by her behavior.

Now, in case 1, *Praxeology of Dread* (book from Ryan Stone) would apply (please note, this is absolutely not a promotion for the book, but it speaks very well of the dynamics that I have found in real life in many couples here in Italy, where, when the woman disrespects the man, if the man follows that book to the letter, then he will be successful in "maintaining" the relationship).

As for case 2, "Non-Violent Communication" a theory from Marshall Rosenberg, would apply. Anyway, I could assure you that, here in Italy, if a man responds in that way to a woman's disrespect, then he loses all respect. She will start doing things to undermine the relationship and maybe leave him.

I know my cousins, both separated. They have an attitude like many here on the forum; their women were with them since adolescence, they had children, married, and used non-violent communication ("case 2") but eventually their wives cheated on both of them, and they divorced.

Instead, many other relationships, like my friends one, sister, other old people I know, last 30 years plus with the Dread approach ("case 1").

Deepening this concept of relationships would be very useful to establish what the correct response of a woman towards us men is.

Imagine living in a box and always seeing the same things, in the end you will reassure yourself that what you see are "good" things.. "healthy" things...
So in this case, this is what I see in my box, but I who also look beyond, "feel" from you also these experiences of yours that you say that instead, in your box, you live with model 2.

Do you feel like you have a different relationship than most of the people around you?
Have you noticed this too?

Really curious to hear more from you

[chenda]

Samuel Johnson once quiped that a second marriage is the 'triumph of hope over experience'.

[lillo9546]

What do you mean by this?
The hope of finding a better person who doesn't make you use those unhealthy tactics?

Let's say that more than tactics, they are behaviors that, when put into practice, dissipate boredom and the feeling of being too friendly / roommate, which is generated in couples, to bring more excitement / anticipation / desire to have more.

[7Wannabe5]

@lillo:

The dichotomy you are describing is too low level or simplistic to apply to long-term success in marriage.

WAYS TO FAIL

Level 1: Be too much of a wimp.

Level 2: Be too much of an asshole.

So, an eventual FAIL at Level 2 only looks like a WIN from Level 1. This is the level at which many Pick-Up Artist advisors are selling books. Women who err on the side of too "nice" in their relationships can also derive some benefit from books at this level meant for female audience which often have titles such as "Princess Bitch: The Sassy Guide to Relationships, Power, and Success." There are basically two ways of being Too Wimpy.

1) Be too much of a Baby.
2) Be too much of a Daddy.

But, both of these are reflective of the same problem, which is believing that the purpose of your primary adult relationship with another adult is to provide or replace the care you did or didn't receive from your primary love relationship with caretaker in childhood.

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.............Possibility of Long-Term Success Traditional Towards Modern Marriage Baseline.....................................................................

Level 5: Maintain your strong personal boundaries in alignment with self-respect and your core purpose. Cherish your partner and honor her preferences.


Since INTJ is the type most represented on this forum and INTJ tends to err more on the side of "too much of an asshole" when not in highest functioning mode, the most likely failure point would be to not "honor her preferences", because you believe your take on a situation to be the most rational. For example, in "Man of Steel and Velvet", the anecdote presented is that a couple is shopping for linoleum for their kitchen, and the husband is in the role of frugal decision maker. One style of linoleum is only $1 per square unit and only comes in Gray, and another style of linoleum is $2 per square unit and is available in Gray and Yellow. The wife says, "I prefer the yellow, because it would make the kitchen a more cheery place in which to chop vegetables for lentil soup." The husband thinks, "I will achieve my goal of FIRE 1.5 days earlier if we purchase the gray tile." and unilaterally concludes the purchase. Two years later, the wife is feeling a bit down after spending yet another morning in her gray, gray kitchen. She glances out the window and spots a handsome young man in a bright red t-shirt, whistling a jolly tune to himself as he plants a flowering tree in his yard next door...
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.........................................Towards Meta-Modern Baseline.............................................................................

Level 8: Not yet known practice through which you might convince female who is self-aware and skilled in both her feminine and masculine energy and happily practicing polyamory to consent to monogamous contract with you.

[lillo9546]

The examples are too abstract, at least for me to comprehend.
Given the aspect of relationships, talking about behavior would be significantly better.

I've observed that when a woman (your girlfriend or wife) exhibits negative behavior towards her boyfriend/husband, the following reactions, though undesirable, have paradoxically maintained the LTR: men becoming angry, raising their voices, putting their partners down, instilling fear, creating an environment and limiting her contact with other men (subtle). These approaches seem to "work" more often than being truly honest and saying, "You make me feel this way," or acting like the "mature" men I believe are present in this group, and that are talking about another POV people still don't know about

Based on evolutionary biology, some concepts in the "dread" book, or in any other dread theory on the internet, appear to be rooted in female behavior, and so, to work.

Therefore, I am surprised that your experiences in your relationships involve a completely different approach. I am very curious to learn more about your perspectives on these points. This is like gold

[7Wannabe5]

@lillo:

Okay, here's the thing. Dominant posturing can be sexually attractive in a man. Guess what? It can also be sexually attractive in a woman. Most humans have some level of core desire for a "mighty good leader." However, I feel like the pick-up-artist advisors are often approaching this reality in an overly simplistic, towards blind and irresponsible manner. Akin to putting AK47s in the hands of child soldiers.

So, step 1, instead of hard-blind flipping to exhibiting "dread" behavior as a male, focus instead on simply not reacting to any disrespectful or negative behavior exhibited by your female partner. She's not a Goddess, and you are not that desperate. The feeling-scape of being "in love" or infatuated is actually quite similar to that experienced by humans in deep group submission to a Warrior Leader. She can only hurt you with her disrespect to the extent that she can also lift you with her praise. There is simply no avoiding the need to work on your own core strength and self-awareness prior to successfully engaging in significant adult relationship. Get off of the dating sites and get back to the gym and your therapist if this is where you currently find yourself.

The way you will know you are addressing this sort of thing in a mature manner is when you can cheerfully and confidently ask a woman, "So, what's your take on some dominant posturing in bed?" and feel mostly amused and better informed if she responds with "Mmmm, towards the yummy. However, it is possible that a display of dominance in the kitchen while I am attempting to cook breakfast may result in finding your ass hard slapped with a spatula."

[Stasher]

Level 5: Maintain your strong personal boundaries in alignment with self-respect and your core purpose. Cherish your partner and honor her preferences.

So much yes to this !

I have found that working on myself, reflecting on my actions, striving to do better, always honest, always grateful and always respectful through the lens of how I act around or treat DW is the path.

Another hugely interesting and valuable revelation I had is how much a benefit my multi day solo backpacking trips are. During that time I have no other option than listening to my inner dialogue in solitude and to have a good chat with myself. I remember one time, and much like 7W commented above, my wife presented options on something she wanted to do. I went on a big backpacking trip the next week and during that distraction free time realized I didn't even really respect her thoughts or opinions on the topic. When I got home I told her that I had this reflection, shared how it was wrong of me to not fully consider her feelings and only my own and then ultimately ended up fully supporting her decision.

[7Wannabe5]

@Stasher:

Another similar example from "Passionate Marriage" would be the husband who is dominantly leading his wife on a hiking expedition and doesn't hear her comments about feeling like she is getting a blister and the end result is that he becomes completely hobbled in his goal, because she becomes completely hobbled by her blister. Basically, it's just Leadership 501 with spouse subbed in for stakeholders. If you possess enough personal human resources and masculine energy, you can just keep on efficiently maximizing your plan-scape and burning through relationships as you go, just like an industrialist who can afford to move his plant of operations when the local river becomes too polluted with run-off. Higher level second or third order thinking often requires some serious white space in a room of one's own to accomplish.

One of the biggest causes of unnecessary conflict in relationship is just not being aware whether you are signaling whether you want to be in the lead or the follow in the moment. For example, a classic fail is semi-consciously attempting to disguise the fact that you want to take the lead by hiding your commands in a pile of "nice" word and punctuation padding. "Fetch me a beer, wench!" vs. "Honey, Louise Miller called this morning, and they want us to bring some chairs for the barbeque on Saturday. Would you be a dear and load them in the mini-van after you get back from picking up those tiles I ordered for the fireplace surround? Oh, and Sweetie, don't forget to pick up the tickets for Hamilton. Are you really planning on leaving the house wearing that t-shirt? I thought we agreed to throw it in the scrap box?"

[Saltation]

7WB:

You have described nearly all the family hiking adventures. 13 miles in and everyone is complaining. But the kicker is to have a carrot. Bring some fruit snacks for every few miles, let the family know that you have aches and pains too and after a long, slow ride home that you'll make the family a fresh batch of popcorn. Add in some adventures along the hiking path that include finding different trees and mushroom species. Slow down and look for signs of wildlife. If there is a stream/river splash around for a few minutes. Definitely not the time or place to try and pace 4mph and build "mental toughness." Make it a 12 hour adventure instead of a 4 hour death march.

[7Wannabe5]

@Saltation:

Yes, when you are making leadership decisions that will involve a variety of stakeholders, the situation is more complex, and efficiency losses will be balanced with resiliency gains. When a hike is experienced positively by most or all stakeholders, you also increase the probability of creating a practice that may endure beyond your span of leadership. One of your grandsons at age 32 entering on to a trail with his small new family may semi-consciously think to himself, "This is how to take a family hike."


At this juncture, I might also note for the record that besides the options of being "too wimpy" or "too much of an asshole", it is also possible to simply be or become dysfunctionally disengaged from relationship(s.) For simple example, you never take your family on a hike, because you always play golf instead, or you never take your family on a hike, because you suffer from chronic depression for which you do not seek appropriate treatment. It is also possible to err on the side of being too inclusive of stakeholders within the boundary of a given goal. For example, your wife might eventually object if you insist that every family hike must also include your peevish grandmother with her cane and oxygen tank. Also, the going off to play golf behavior may be perfectly functional in a situation where the stakeholder group is like unto a highly individualistic, introverted herd of cats. It's not unusual to have a family dynamic in which a more introverted parent focuses on 1 on 1 relationships within the family, and a more extroverted parent organizes the group hikes.

Since I am very borderline I vs. E, in my first marriage with a much more introverted partner, I was definitely the group hike organizer. In my second "marriage" with a much more extroverted partner, I was more focused on 1 on 1 or more supportive "Girl Friday" and/or "packing the picnic basket" functionality. So, my perception in my first marriage was towards, "I have to take charge of everything, and I am not receiving any support." and my perception in my second marriage was towards, "I am suffocating and shrinking from too often being in the supportive role. I crave more autonomy and opportunities in which I am in the lead." So, the funny thing that happened was that one of the "assignments" I was given in marital therapy for my first marriage was almost exactly the opposite of an "assignment" I was given in marital therapy for my second marriage. The first "assignment" was basically to try to sit on my hands and not take over when my first husband didn't fulfill responsibilities or take the lead. The second "assignment" was that my second husband was supposed to allow me to complete a small task within our shared sphere without attempting to take over. The first assignment came to an end after approximately 40 days when I received a weed ordinance violation notice from the city, because I didn't take over my first husband's tasks related to lawn care. The second assignment came to an end on approximately Day 3 of my small solo project of redecorating the main bathroom in my second husband's house when he simply could no longer hold himself back from commenting on the inefficient manner in which he felt I was approaching the task of painting.

Since, I am now approximately 20 years out from my first marriage and 10 years out from my second, I can also note for the record that neither of my exes have changed their essential pattern, and I've only really changed my ways at the level of becoming more self-aware or gaining greater perspective. My perspective being that it is generally easier for me to live full-time with a man (or any other human)who is more introverted than me, but it is easier for me to have a romantic/sexual relationship with more extroverted man (men.) And that isn't even addressing all the other letters in the MBTI, such as the huge P/J schism between me and the terrible, terrible, esTJ polyamorous BF with whom I shared living space for a few years (off and on, because he drove me over the edge with his Iron Chef ways.) I might also note for the record that I am currently friendly, good friends, or once again sexually engaged with these three men from the long-leash comfortably independent distance of Room of My Own.

[lillo9546]

focus instead on simply not reacting to any disrespectful or negative behavior exhibited by your female partner.

This is what usually happens. My spontaneous response, but I have also learned that this can be a behavior, at the same time calm and controlled, and passive aggressive, since you do not explain to her how her behavior disrespected you.

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You are lucky to have that kind of woman by your side.
However, what would you have done if in addition to your sincere behavior, your woman continued to disrespect you?

[7Wannabe5]

This is what usually happens. My spontaneous response, but I have also learned that this can be a behavior, at the same time calm and controlled, and passive aggressive, since you do not explain to her how her behavior disrespected you.

Gotcha. Can you describe an example of what you mean by disrespectful behavior? Have you tried putting yourself in her shoes and coming up with some possible motivations for her disrespectful behavior? I think most of us can be pushed towards exhibiting disrespectful behavior within certain stressful contexts, but the sexual dichotomy theory rule of thumb would be that a woman may feel compelled to exhibit disrespectful behavior when she feels anger because she is compelled to inhabit the masculine role in relationship. Stereotypical example being when she has to earn the money because male partner can't or won't.

I say 'stereotypical", because there do exist many functional exceptions to this rule, but in terms of even current 21st century statistics, male partner becoming long-term unemployed is very strongly correlated with divorce. And, unfortunately, I can imagine this reality bleeding into some relationships of humans attempting FIRE if the female feels like she needs to keep working at some non-enjoyable/non-fulfilling occupation when her male partner is already FIREd, even if she rationally holds this to be fair and egalitarian. I have seen this dynamic at play in the relationships of a couple female friends who had husbands with moderate family trust-fund kid wealth. You would think that the fact that a FIRE guy had done the work to earn/save the money himself would make a difference, but that's not necessarily how the dynamics of sexual relationships work in the moment. All she sees when she comes home from hard day in the coal mine is that he has apparently been sitting on his ass eating lentil chips and playing PubG all day long, and now he is hitting her up for some sex before she's even had a chance to clean off the coal dust and relax with a mug of homebrew?! I can imagine the possibility that something somewhat disrespectful sounding might come out of her mouth.

[Stasher]

However, what would you have done if in addition to your sincere behavior, your woman continued to disrespect you?

I can't answer this as we have never been in this kind of position.

[chenda]

What do you mean by this?

I think Samuel Johnson was joking. A bad marriage should leave one twice shy. Although maybe he was referring to death rather than divorce, I don't know if divorce even existed in the 18th century. A bad marriage is still a bad marriage, if ended by either death or divorce. Or maybe he felt all marriages were bad. Johnson himself only married once, to a wealthy women 20 years his senior.

[7Wannabe5]

A similar quip from "Advice to a Young Wife from an Old Mistress" would be "Marriage is for amateurs." Kind of like the Olympics.