The Education of Revan

[7Wannabe5]

I've been mainly focused on my own goals(purpose).

Yes, ENTJ is one of the most stereotypically masculine types, and you are also male and young, so completely to be expected that you are primarily focused on goals and working on purpose. Likely you will mellow a bit as your testosterone levels decline relative to your vasopressin and oxytocin levels. Also, as with most things, self-aware is halfway there, and just the fact that you have arrived at this forum is indicative of ability to work on self-knowledge and expansion.

As Deida makes clear, most of your partners will hold the desire to express both feminine and masculine aspects of their personae, so the challenge is in dancing with their feminine energy while accepting and allowing space for their masculine goals and purpose largely manifested outside of your relationship. In simpler terms, to the extent your leadership tendencies cause you to direct the activities of your core feminine energy partners and thereby make them "useful" to you, you will actually be treating them as if they are lower-rung males rather than the source of radiant love or beauty in your life.

[Revan]

I've decided I want to retired by the time I'm 30. (35 at the latest).


I've started reading that "Efficiency: Get Rich Without Giving Up Your Life" by The Wallstreet Playboys book. I probably will be like the 99% who don't take the advice. What I will do is take is read less frequently and focus more on skills (mental or otherwise).

Sales, Wall Street, and Tech is spot on for the most high paying careers though.

[basuragomi]

So you'll need to save up $20,000-$33,000/year until then. Highly achievable, especially if you can rely on parental shelter for the first few years. Consider that if you can get $1,000/mo of low-effort/goal-aligned income in retirement you can halve that amount or retire even earlier.

[Western Red Cedar]

How can I apply this book to financial independence?
-Tracking spending and saving
-Net Worth daily tracking
-Start habit of reading one financial blog post a day.
-Be ready for mistakes and financial challenges/setbacks along the path to independence.

I think one of the most impactful lessons you can apply from Atomic Habits is creating an identity as a non-consumer. Clear talks extensively about identity-based habits. Once you internalize the identity of the type of person who solves problems without spending money, you've basically won the race.

The other big one you might think about and apply to ERE is his focus on systems. He is a big proponent of systems thinking, and you might explore how taking an integrated approach to financial independence by doing things like developing a workout routine, cooking for yourself, using human-powered transportation, and a host of other actions reinforces your financial goals.

"You do not rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your systems."

-James Clear

[Revan]

So you'll need to save up $20,000-$33,000/year until then.

Yeah so, I'll need to either lower the FI number or expand the amount of work years. I think it would be difficult to have a job during college but manageable (If I time-manage).

I think one of the most impactful lessons you can apply from Atomic Habits is creating an identity as a non-consumer. Clear talks extensively about identity-based habits. Once you internalize the identity of the type of person who solves problems without spending money, you've basically won the race.

True! Identity forming is the key. Building skills on top of skills on the road to independence.

[Revan]

I'll be going to whatever school gives the most aid or scholarships. Probably focusing more on studies than a job.

[Scordatura]

I'll be going to whatever school gives the most aid or scholarships. Probably focusing more on studies than a job.

Do you have a better idea now what studies you are interested in?

I see Engineering or Statistics or Economics in the first post.

If I may, I'd like to make some unsolicited suggestions and/or ramble a bit.

I would at least be thinking what job your studies open for you. Make sure the time and money investment is worth it for you.
Also, if you don't know specifically what you want, fields with low barriers to entry and jobs on the other side of study are EXCELLENT choices. You get into the field early to start making money, and if you don't like it there isn't a huge downside to ditch the field entirely. It's hard to know what you want to do when you're very young because you barely know yourself and know the world even less. Experimentation is key.

I went to college three times, graduated three times, and let me tell you, my trade school degree was easily the best time/money investment. The B.A. in Biochem was the worst. Now, I don't regret going, but educating yourself is an option if you are doing college for fulfillment reasons and not employment. Using ERE principles, it is not terribly hard to purchase microscopes or mildly expensive lab equipment if you want.

I find it interesting you test as ENTJ but were asking for tips to be more sociable. Is it perhaps, that you are middling in Extraversion? I also test as ENTJ, but don't fit some of the tropes. Environment plays a HUGE role on how your personality manifests. I'm not the forum expert on this by any stretch, but from personal experience I'd tell you those of us that are middling on a trait are more influenced by environment than those at the extremes. For me, this is Extraversion. I tested INTJ in high school when I was surrounded by family and just wanted me time. Now that I'm on my own, the Extraversion shows more clearly. Might apply to you. My more extreme traits have never wavered. I'm pretty well gonna be a T no matter what's going on in life.

I look forward to seeing where you go. Keep at it.

[Revan]

Do you have a better idea now what studies you are interested in?

I see Engineering or Statistics or Economics in the first post.

If I may, I'd like to make some unsolicited suggestions and/or ramble a bit.

I would at least be thinking what job your studies open for you. Make sure the time and money investment is worth it for you.
Also, if you don't know specifically what you want, fields with low barriers to entry and jobs on the other side of study are EXCELLENT choices. You get into the field early to start making money, and if you don't like it there isn't a huge downside to ditch the field entirely. It's hard to know what you want to do when you're very young because you barely know yourself and know the world even less. Experimentation is key.

I'm only choosing Engineering/Economics/Statistics because they lead to decent jobs. Engineering only requires an undergraduate major, pays decent, and is almost needed in every company. Mr. Money Mustache, for example, was an engineer and retired. Economics/Statistics would lean more into finance or, more likely, IB M&A. Also, high pay, lots of hours, but worth it at the end. Of course, the trouble of the finance world is that one (I) would need to know someone or go to T20 school.

If I had to pay for college all by myself, I would say heck no and learn how to code or sell online. One reason I'm going is that high schoolers (me) have more opportunities for scholarships than when someone goes later, and my parents saved up some money for college. Those majors seem worth it because of the ROI. I also don't have any other good ideas popping out of my head on what to do.

-
Do I know if it'll be worth it? I don't know.
Is there a possibility that its worth it? Yes.

I find it interesting you test as ENTJ but were asking for tips to be more sociable. Is it perhaps, that you are middling in Extraversion? I also test as ENTJ, but don't fit some of the tropes. Environment plays a HUGE role on how your personality manifests. I'm not the forum expert on this by any stretch, but from personal experience I'd tell you those of us that are middling on a trait are more influenced by environment than those at the extremes. For me, this is Extraversion. I tested INTJ in high school when I was surrounded by family and just wanted me time. Now that I'm on my own, the Extraversion shows more clearly. Might apply to you. My more extreme traits have never wavered. I'm pretty well gonna be a T no matter what's going on in life.

I look forward to seeing where you go. Keep at it.

Testing as an ENTJ-T was not what I expected either(a few years ago), but in terms of sociability, I was very shy. That's one of the critical traits of "-T." I've read that we "-T's" prefer thought over action. As I look in the rearview mirror of my life, I've noticed that I have made many plans. I knew a lot of theory, but no practice or I'll do that when XXXX. This comes in my relationships/sociability, too. I used to tell myself I would talk to people tomorrow. I've missed opportunities to talk to new, fun, exciting people, though. With the tips of this forum and taking a public speaking course, I learned to yap about what I want to say. However, if it's in an environment (as you noted) where I know nothing about a topic, say Physics, then I don't say anything at all or even ask questions. The environment definitely plays a key role in how much I talk/yap about a subject.

[Scordatura]

I'm only choosing Engineering/Economics/Statistics because they lead to decent jobs. Engineering only requires an undergraduate major, pays decent, and is almost needed in every company. Mr. Money Mustache, for example, was an engineer and retired. Economics/Statistics would lean more into finance or, more likely, IB M&A. Also, high pay, lots of hours, but worth it at the end. Of course, the trouble of the finance world is that one (I) would need to know someone or go to T20 school.

If I had to pay for college all by myself, I would say heck no and learn how to code or sell online. One reason I'm going is that high schoolers (me) have more opportunities for scholarships than when someone goes later, and my parents saved up some money for college. Those majors seem worth it because of the ROI. I also don't have any other good ideas popping out of my head on what to do.

Glad to hear you are thinking about it. I don't know if anyone has actually crunched the numbers, but I have a suspicion that in terms of return on investment of time and money, associate's degrees are where it's at. I know people who went into nursing or a trade early and they had moderately high incomes very quickly. With an ERE mindset, I'd imagine the accumulation phase would be very, very brief. Something to think about.

In any case, good luck and choose wisely.

[jacob]

If it's just crunching numbers, becoming a delivery driver for UPS et al is still where some of the best ROI money is at. Personally, I think interest and talent are also important . When it comes to salary or income, I'd rather frame it in terms of what degrees not to pursue and avoid going into debt for than what provides the max income.

[jennypenny]

If I had to pay for college all by myself, I would say heck no and learn how to code or sell online.

Or go to a school like South Dakota Mines that offers decent engineering and related degrees for $25K/year (less if you live in SD or several midwestern states -- Colorado, Kansas, Montana, Wisconsin, Illinois, Minnesota, Nebraska, Wyoming, Iowa, Missouri, North Dakota). That particular school also has clubs where you can learn hard skills like welding and blacksmithing.

IMO the pendulum has gone too far the other way with people dismissing higher ed outright. Good, affordable programs are out there but you have to look for them. There's are social and personal growth components to attending college that are often overlooked.

[7Wannabe5]

There are several serious problems with choosing a high-paying, low barrier to entry, blue collar job if you are a young man with a middle-class upbringing.

1) High possibility of physical injury. Very often you will be used like a disposable machine. Even on jobs which don't require a lot of heavy lifting or similar, you may be required to do things like drive a semi-truck for 36 hours with no sleep.

2) High level of association with co-workers who smoke cigarettes, drink, have criminal habits, etc.

3) Lack of cultural knowledge and social connections that might make the job easier for you or grant you access to better positions within the field.

4) High degree of intermittence of employment opportunities also possible. Although, I would say that currently this is a declining issue due to technology making "at will" employment contracts more of a 2-Way street. For example, if one worker at a loading dock sees on an app or gets a message from a friend that some other loading dock is paying $2 more/hr., he will tell co-workers and they will all be able to almost immediately able to switch from one gig to another. This is even true with less likely demographic and more high skilled gig work. For example, almost all of the Boomer-age female retired teachers who worked for the same private tutoring firm with me quit when they learned how large of a cut (50% !) the firm was taking. Interesting note would be that the trend is the opposite for many full-time-with-benefits-white-collar-jobs. For example, data analysts may have to complete up to 8 different levels of interviews just to get one job.

Anyways, good on you for making call on "Efficiency" program. You are a quick study! However, one other useful takeaway from it would be:

Learn Sales for Every Interaction: ...the skills you learn by selling will give you the toolbox necessary to live a comfortable life...if you can sell, you can transfer that skill into the most important aspects of your life: earning money, dating, making friends, and interviewing...In short, sales is the most transferable skill you will ever learn.

Interesting note would be that Robin Greenfield, who is currently living about as opposite to Wall Street Playboy lifestyle as could be imagined, also describes starting out and being able to earn significant money through sales while he was in college. I'm going to posit that learning/mastering the skill of sales, having the experience of starting/running your own small business, and/or learning how to invest towards FIRE can basically serve as the same purpose or path stone in Modern life/development.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVY51wb5OBw



If you consider the classic mythical Supply/Demand curve of Econ 101, or even the dichotomy of Production/Consumption, Sales/Marketing and Finance are towards the model maker/breakers. For example, my rags (was unemployed and eating from dumpster at age 26) to mega-riches (died with net worth greater than 100 million at age 80) friend, entirely made his fortune through financial products, starting out by selling them. And this was already the most efficient way to proceed back when he started out in the 1960s. Unfortunately, like a famous character from Dickens, he stuck too narrowly and long with this piece of advice from "Efficiency":

Obligations Are Now Gone: If you are starting at ground zero, you have absolutely no obligations to anyone. This includes you friends, your teachers, and even your family if they are not going to help you to succeed. Everyone encourages you to join the Peace Corps or worry about "the children" and other social matters that are now irrelevant to you. We will reiterate. All obligations for you to do anything are now gone.

It is important to note, this does not mean you will live a life without consequence, it means that you will no longer have an excuse of "obligation to someone else."

The very good thing about the highly flexible and generalized ERE program is that one could theoretically simultaneously lower ones own expenses DOWN to global sustainable level= 1 Jacob, save/invest enough money to retire very young, and also lift a child in Africa UP to 1 Jacob spending. IOW, you could even start being a Human of Consequence on Day 1! If you watch some more Robin Greenfield videos, you will also learn that it's much easier to gain access to radiantly beautiful strong females by becoming a Human of Consequence than by learning from the Wall Street Playboys and/or other successful Pimp/Players how to offer insecure females well-crafted insults in situations in which they are more likely to be inebriated. It is even easier than offering a 50/50 power couple contract to a similarly successful modern female who only expects you to cover half the expense of yearly international travel and private schools for your 1 kid or life-extension vet bills for your 1 dog.

[blink2ce]

Here is a sample path for your consideration Revan:

Get an Associates degree in Electrical Engineering Technology. This will qualify you for jobs such as the following:
- Substation Electrician at a large utility (often a union job)
- Relay Tester at a large utility (often a union job)
- Field Service Technician for a large producer of industrial power equipment. You would be traveling regionally to industrial facilities to do maintenance or troubleshooting on motor drives and stuff like that.
- Field Service Technician for DER (Distributed Energy Resources) solar fields.

This could get you money in a relatively safe manner without having to spend 4 years at a university before even trying the job. Utilities are great on safety and even the field service technician jobs are pretty safe, since no large company wants to have a casualty on their hands. The driving of the vehicle to and from jobsites is the most dangerous part.

Then if you like the industry and you want to become an engineer, go to 2 more years of school to get your Electrical Engineering bachelor's degree. At that point you will be qualified for jobs such as:
- Power Systems Planning Engineer
- Power Systems Protection Engineer
- Distribution Control Center Operations

These will have your butt in a seat doing more brainwork.

[white belt]

Assuming you're in the USA, ROTC will pay for your whole college tuition and a stipend. The downside is you have to serve 4 years in the military after graduating. Upside is you get a normal college experience and have wide latitude in choice of major. I ended up going to an in-state public school and stumbling into ROTC during my freshman year, but if I had applied while still in high school then I would've gone to a much more prestigious/expensive out of state school (the scholarship is 100% tuition regardless if that's <20k a year or >60k a year). Each branch is different. If you want to be comfortable, then pick the Air Force. If you want adventure and like the ocean you can try the Navy (adventure might not live up to expectations but you'll spend a lot of time on the ocean). If you want to be physically/mentally challenged and like the outdoors, then there's the Army (that's what I did). I don't recommend the Marine Corps unless you have some strong connection to it because it's like the worst parts of the Army and Navy combined.

[2Birds1Stone]

If you truly are an ENTJ then also consider going to school for a degree in professional sales, these didn't exist when I went to college but they are more and more prevalent. Tech sales is pretty much a guaranteed six figure income after ~2 years. If you're successful then you're looking at $250k+ after ~5 years at almost any of the 1000's of mid/large tech companies with a direct sales force in the USA.

[jacob]

If you're successful then [...]

How many are successful and what happens to those who aren't?

For example, physics students aren't in it for the money but rather for the discovery and associated fame. It goes approximately like this:
Year 1: 100% believe they will go on to do research and discover something important and maybe get the Nobel Prize.
Year 3: 10% still believe in the Prize, 60% believe they'll work in physics in some capacity, 30% are looking to branch into teaching HS.
Year 5: 0% believes in the Prize, 20% believe in a physics career. 30% believe in HS, and 50% resign themselves to some form of programming job where heavy math is required.

Of those 20% who are left still pursuing physics, about half go into academia and the other half become a staff scientist for some mathematically oriented company.

[zbigi]

From what I've seen in the industry, these positions are truly plentiful and well paying, and require no skills apart from general intelligence, quick thinking, being very sociable and likable. It's basically like being a mini-diplomat, but serving a company instead of government - you shmooze with clients' high management a lot and slowly try to steer them towards buying a big contact at your company. In Poland, companies mostly hire people with business degrees for those jobs. As for success rates, it mostly depends on what you're selling. In some jobs I've had, the sales people had it made, while in another, the company was constantly churning through them, as they weren't able to find enough paying clients.

[jacob]

@zbigi - To me that sounds like a "throw mud on the wall" and see who sticks-hiring strategy. This is similar to trading in that there's no way to see in advance who will be good (or lucky) at it, so the corporate strategy is just to go through a lot of people and see who sticks. This also suggests that degrees or education don't make a measurable difference. But maybe sales is different ... this is why I'm curious about "placement ratios": Where did the students eventually end up? I somehow doubt that everyone who tries ends up making 250k. My cynical expectation is that a much more likely outcome is making 50k as an assistant manager in strip mall store.

I should also note that the physics eventual placements above were no surprise to anyone looking back. An IQ test would have revealed it. Many of us actually took one for fun in the freshman year and the eventual outcome was as one could have expected. The only other possible variable was breadth of interests.

[7Wannabe5]

@jacob:

You forgot to account for Ted Kaczynski. Also, maybe me, since my major was Physics at a major university from Year 3 through Year 3.5. Of course, I had 2 different majors Year 1 and Year 2, and then 2 more in Year 3.5 and Year 4, before I finally graduated with exactly 120 credit hours (minimum needed), a 2 year old child and another bun already in the oven. In retrospect, if I had the opportunity to un-knit that sweater (and still retain my darling children), I would have chosen to apply to St. John's University where you read and discuss the classics for 4 years before making a decision about what to do next with your life. Of course, there might also be a way to do that without paying tuition. Chris Guillebeau's "Art of Non-Conformity" list of less expensive things you can do to have the graduate school experience without paying for graduate school might also be useful. My own recent experience with getting a grad degree in technical field in my 50s was pretty "bleh" and kind of choice I would only maybe make once again if having a disease that caused me to shit blood and guts every morning made "brain in a jar" lifestyle at Level Modern my only/best option.

Sales definitely is "throw mud and see who sticks." Another possibility for making decent money in sales is becoming a mortgage broker. My mega-millionaire friend, who also had an eNTJ personality type started out in insurance sales. He told me that his biggest problem starting out was basically his innate inability to exhibit any level of submissiveness. He had to get fired from three positions and find himself eating out of a dumpster with only other option being returning as a failure to the family farm, before he decided that he could at least behave "as if" he was submissive to an employer. Luck comes to those who are prepared, so when his boss's wife divorced him and won half the company in the settlement, he had enough money saved up from his successful sales career to buy half-ownership from the wife. Then he was smart enough to get rid of all of the company's small fry clients in favor of large contracts, etc. etc. etc. Capitalism 101. During the years he was in sales, he always owned a Corvette, but he kept selling and buying them in a manner where he maximized the tendency towards appreciation of sports cars, so they didn't end up costing him very much. He did the same thing with his upscale work wardrobe, but as soon as he came home from work he changed into the most pitiful collection of frugal miser clothing you have ever seen and he also took his dentures out, which is one of the reasons why I had zero percent sexual interest in him. I like frugal, but I can't do Dirty Miser.

ETA: Actually, zero percent sexual interest is more like what I would feel for Gomer Pyle (although his innate kindness would make him huggable.) My mega-millionaire friend inspired some degree of my sexual interest, but the repulsive factors out-weighed the attractive factors. He was sexually attracted to me, but mostly because he was more sapiosexual than most men and I was in one of my phases where I was paying attention to my appearance when we met, but I was superficially also his best friend's girlfriend (really I was polyamorous and my relationship with his superficially conservative Republican best friend was half towards acting as beard for his bi-sexuality.) I would also note that he clearly valued kindness and chastity in a female partner much less than median man since his long-term partner was a seriously scary semi-ex prostitute/drug addict. But, I still held his hand when he was dying.

[Revan]

Glad to hear you are thinking about it. I don't know if anyone has actually crunched the numbers, but I have a suspicion that in terms of return on investment of time and money, associate's degrees are where it's at. I know people who went into nursing or a trade early and they had moderately high incomes very quickly. With an ERE mindset, I'd imagine the accumulation phase would be very, very brief. Something to think about.

In any case, good luck and choose wisely.

The good thing about a trade is that it can rarely be outsourced. The bad thing potentially is that you have to physically be there. I've considered a trade such as masonry or carpentry; however, (I need to learn a new sentence structure) after research it seems that everyone gets burned out or their backs broken by the time they're 25. I also know some people that are semi-retired (only working occasionally) that are in the trades and they have the benefit of being creative in their own work.

Nursing, I honestly don't know much about it. I thought it required a bachelors degree. I know traveling nurses make quite a bit. I'm terrible a chemistry and never taken a course in biology so....

If it's just crunching numbers, becoming a delivery driver for UPS et al is still where some of the best ROI money is at. Personally, I think interest and talent are also important . When it comes to salary or income, I'd rather frame it in terms of what degrees not to pursue and avoid going into debt for than what provides the max income.

I think UPS would be too. It really depends on what your (my) self-discipline is and how far your (I'm) willing to go. I'd pretty much have to go against what everyone I know is recommending which is college. Going against the norm and everyone around me would be difficult.I know a guy who took this route and currently works the max hours per week basically no time for anything and somehow still manages to spend a lot. Or at least that's how it looks from the outside. (Guy if you ever read this, welcome to ERE)

Or go to a school like South Dakota Mines that offers decent engineering and related degrees for $25K/year (less if you live in SD or several midwestern states -- Colorado, Kansas, Montana, Wisconsin, Illinois, Minnesota, Nebraska, Wyoming, Iowa, Missouri, North Dakota). That particular school also has clubs where you can learn hard skills like welding and blacksmithing.

IMO the pendulum has gone too far the other way with people dismissing higher ed outright. Good, affordable programs are out there but you have to look for them. There's are social and personal growth components to attending college that are often overlooked.

Those hard skills sound awesome and interesting. My state university is similar in pricing with the benefit of being close to home.

What I meant that one doesn't need a degree to get a job. For example, there are software "engineers" that don't have a degree but know their stuff.

I believe higher ed is sometimes dismissed because of the cost and that most of it won't be applicable to an actual job. Most grads don't even work in the same area as they got their degree in. (No I don't have a source; I read it somewhere.)

There are several serious problems with choosing a high-paying, low barrier to entry, blue collar job if you are a young man with a middle-class upbringing.

1) High possibility of physical injury. Very often you will be used like a disposable machine. Even on jobs which don't require a lot of heavy lifting or similar, you may be required to do things like drive a semi-truck for 36 hours with no sleep.

2) High level of association with co-workers who smoke cigarettes, drink, have criminal habits, etc.

3) Lack of cultural knowledge and social connections that might make the job easier for you or grant you access to better positions within the field.

4) High degree of intermittence of employment opportunities also possible.

I'd say these are things I noticed while working as a day laborer. Work is dependent on who has a body and tools. The boss doesn't care about the laborer only the money. Of course, that's how it is in most businesses.

Anyways, good on you for making call on "Efficiency" program. You are a quick study! However, one other useful takeaway from it would be:



Interesting note would be that Robin Greenfield, who is currently living about as opposite to Wall Street Playboy lifestyle as could be imagined, also describes starting out and being able to earn significant money through sales while he was in college. I'm going to posit that learning/mastering the skill of sales, having the experience of starting/running your own small business, and/or learning how to invest towards FIRE can basically serve as the same purpose or path stone in Modern life/development.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVY51wb5OBw

That book say sales was really important and profitable into a high paying career. How would I improve my sales skill though with purposeful practice? When I don't have anything to sell or anything.

I have found one online source that has improved my speaking. (https://yoodli.ai/) Its an AI that you can do a cold sales call to.

I really like the idea of what Robin Greenfield changing himself one week at a time. Step by step. Its so awesome he has the ability to live on nothing. That one thing that was holding him back "societal structures and expectations," is what's holding me back as well. I think I would probably not go to college as most of the stuff that I've actually learned has been outside of the classroom. (Khan Academy, YouTube, etc) I definitely do read a lot of books. Greenfield has cool life and the best part freedom to watch, see, read.