Jacob's gaming journal

[chenda]

But then again. I know many people miss their childhood and think it was their best time of their life. I don't.

Nor me. The novelty of been able to do stay up as late as I want watching late night television has never entirely worn off.

[Anesau]

Interesting.

I assumed there was something I had missed out on, based on stories I heard from older family members of their own childhood. It's possible that this is just another subset of the effect where most people forget long-ago negative memories more than they forget the positive memories, leading to the "golden days" affect when reflecting on their own past.

I did have the benefit of being in ex. adult game development circles online at 12 (where people probably assumed I was a stupid adult more often than they assumed I was a child), so given that my internet use was pretty much entirely unmonitored, I didn't have the "go play with Bob" experience ever.

Maybe the only real "downside" then, at least from my perspective, is that it's not entirely clear what was traded -- there was no option between "play with friends outside" and "spend all day online", I just was pushed onto the opposite-default that previous generations were forced onto. Maybe it wasn't worse, just very different.

Children's culture doesn't seem like it would be too historically aberrant though -- I have living family members who grew up poor on family farms, and they at least report a lot of [what sounds now dangerous or inadvisable] children's culture with the other rural farm kids, at least outside of planting & picking season.

Anyway, interesting perspective that doesn't match any of the perspectives I've heard from real-life people I know, thanks!


As an aside on the topic of video games: the best game I've ever played was Rain World (which is enjoyable in inverse proportion to how much you know about it going in, and I'd very highly recommend it if & only if you have the patience to suffer a bit), and the only game I've sunk >1000hrs into is RimWorld, so if you're ever looking for suggestions those would be my two.

[Jean]

I've known both world. I must say that I have great memories of playing outside and doing dangerous things.
I also have great memories of pirating games when i was a kid.
I think what was important was not feeling the adultsupervision too much. My 10yo neighbours is on a screen more than i was at his age, but he'de rather have is computer crash repeatedly until i'm back from holliday and help him, than google how to change some bios setings on his own..

I think that doing things outside instead of in front of a screen only matter insofar that a lack of motorical skills might create health issues into adulthood.

I used to see myself as having taken refuge online, due to the destruction of my natural habit. While notvfactual, this is a good starting point for some poetic creation

[zbigi]

I think that doing things outside instead of in front of a screen only matter insofar that a lack of motorical skills might create health issues into adulthood.

There's that, but even worse may be not learning how to handle real physical risks and danger, as well as physical confrontations. This may lead to creating a nation of pussies, who won't do well in a war if invaded (unless invaded by a similar nation of pussies .

EDITs: grammar.

[AxelHeyst]

I assumed there was something I had missed out on, based on stories I heard from older family members of their own childhood. It's possible that this is just another subset of the effect where most people forget long-ago negative memories more than they forget the positive memories, leading to the "golden days" affect when reflecting on their own past.

I grew up with a mix of both. I wouldn't trade my running around the redwood forest being chased by half-feral dogs with the other neighborhood kids experiences for anything. I also wouldn't trade my solo wanderings through the high desert with my .22 slung over my shoulder in the rain for all the internet time in the world.

I had no allergic reactions to anything in nature as a kid (in fact I developed a resistance to poison ivy as as result in running through it so often), and I had a varied social life due to being homeschooled (another effect of being homeschooled is I never got force paired up with dumb kids, and was free to pursue my own range of interests to whatever level of intellect I had at my disposal).

I only mention this to stress that some kids had great childhoods involving nature and we don't have to invent stories for them about repressing or dampening negative memories. I'm sure if I'd had Jacob's experiences wrt nature I wouldn't miss it either, but I had good experiences with nature, and so you'll claw a lifestyle that involves nature out of my cold dead hands regardless of the lengths I have to go to get it (within my ethical/values boundaries). There's only so much internets and games I can take before I get a dull ache behind my eyes and must, *must* stumble out into the sun and touch dirt (no grass 'round here). That's me, I'm not casting shade on what other people get up to. (Also, not going to derail this thread with nature talk, just had to chime in re: the above comment.)

[Anesau]

I wouldn't trade my running around the redwood forest being chased by half-feral dogs with the other neighborhood kids experiences for anything.

Haha my childhood might have been the perfect inverse of yours. I wasn't allowed outside in our own backyard (surrounded on all sides by brick fence twice my height, not visible from the street or anything) alone, even as a 14 y/o. The only real time I was allowed to go outside unattended was when I turned 16 and I was allowed to skateboard to school (...maybe only because the school was within view of our apartment, and my mom could watch me from the porch).

[AxelHeyst]

is this... common now, or at least amongst people you knew?

[Anesau]

Among my four closest friends now, the two that grew up in a "standard modern" culture had childhoods very similar to mine, and are equally enamored with stories like The Last of the Monsters with Iron Teeth, out of a desire to have had some sort of real life culture or connection to people/places growing up.

The other two of my friends grew up very religious -- ex. did not own a TV at home to protect against demonic messages, didn't use computers (outside school) until teens -- and had stories of playing in the woods with other kids, etc. Probably depends a lot on family culture, but I'm at least not that aberrant compared to my current social group.

Can't comment on whether it was common for people living near me at the time... because I didn't know any of them, lol


[Edit to add: w.r.t. allergies and the above comment, I developed a very terrible grass allergy around age ~8 that made it extremely painful to even go outside without daily medicine. It wasn't the cause of being kept indoors, but (depending on ones' view about allergies) may have been an effect? Luckily it faded after a few years.]

[7Wannabe5]

This may lead to creating a nation of ...

I wouldn't trade my running around the ... forest being chased by ... with the other neighborhood kids experiences for anything.

Strongly agree. In fact, expanding on a theme developed in Miranda July's "All Fours", I think not having these kinds of experiences might seriously inhibit the development of a natural, body-based sexuality (as opposed to a kinky and/or fantasy based intellectual sexuality and/or a romantic/sentimental florist roses, Hallmark cards, and hotel room after the prom based sexuality.) IOW, how do you learn to be a human animal comfortable in your body if you don't have running around in nature experiences in childhood? I guess you can become "competent" in your body in an indoors gym type setting, but that's not the same thing in my book. Maybe this is one of the factors contributing to the historically low level of sexual interaction currently exhibited by humans in their 20s? Maybe this is just me and my imprinting, but sliding too fast down a mudbank into a cold river on a hot day, or running stoned through the woods under the stars at night, or kissing under the blanket on the abandoned beach; these kind of experiences are towards the core of human sexuality.

I had terrible allergies and asthma as a child, so was more on the "indoors girl" side for my peer group, but unless I was actively wheezing, I was still made to play outside every day for several hours along with my sisters. I lived in a very safe upper-middle-middle-class suburban bedroom community in the 70s, but there were still patches of wild spaces for imaginative play. When I was around 52, I hooked up with a 57 year old guy who had grown up in similar neighborhood, but more working class. He told me he would literally spend 12 hours/day riding around on his bike when he was a kid. He still rode a bike as one of his primary hobbies in his early retirement. And he knew how to "free fuck" 70s style, because he started having sex with the girls in his neighborhood when he was 13. The median Gen X female started having sex at age 15 (me too), during the outdoors/analog era, and the difference this makes is roughly analogous to learning how to swim when you are a toddler. You don't think about it. You don't have to drink alcohol or think about porn fantasies or FITB to drop your inhibitions/neuroticsm/anxiety/etc. You just do it, because you learned how to do it while running free like a primitive. Unless you are with a partner who doesn't have the ability to Just Do It, because then you have to help them relax or get into a natural groove, etc., which is really only worth doing if all other things are significantly not equal. In economic terms, I would rate Natural Setting Obtained Natural Body Ease as worth at least 3 points on 10 point Standard Sexual Attractiveness scale, and/or 2 months fully funded International Travel/year worth of Lifestyle points. So, on that basis alone, lack of exposure to imaginative play in natural setting might put you back the equivalent of at least $20,000 year as an adult, or likely even more.

[chenda]

And he knew how to "free fuck" 70s style,

What is this ? Google sent me somewhere else.

[7Wannabe5]

What is this ? Google sent me somewhere else.

LOL.Maybe akin to knowing how to be in your masculine energy in a feminine space such as nature. The difference between wandering around all day on your bike with your hair worn kind of long, barefoot, only wearing cut-off denim shorts, no helmet, no watch vs. being all dressed up in Lycra and a helmet and goggles with your head down racing in a straight-line and only stopping to check your heart-rate monitor. A strong sinuous snake rhythm vs. a mechanical rhythm. Getting it on vs. Getting it done.

Anyways, I shouldn't be such a negator. I'm sure humans can get in touch with a more natural sexuality as adults by engaging in nature initiation activities such as those recommended for getting in touch with your purpose. And, maybe "You make me feel like a natural woman" is a dated notion of sexual fulfillment. I mean, there's nothing inherently wrong with the Two Little Monkeys With Monkeyminds and Monkeypaws kind of sex fun kicks and tricks you can fire up just on an internet connection, but ...

[Jean]

I started having sex with other people very late, and it was very freeflowing from the begining. I don't know if iit is because i kept my childlike learning ability very late (i started noticing its decline recently) or because i managed avoiding porn until well after. But it would be nice if I already had grankids now

@anesau I never heared of rsin world before, so i read your journal to know i we might have similar taste.
You kinda remind ne of myself so I guess i'll enjoy it too. I imagined you heatd of or played Outer Wilds? Its worrh the hype around it. Same thing as what you said for rainworld, go blind. I think if one should only play one game in its life, it should be it.

[7Wannabe5]

But it would be nice if I already had grankids now

Yeah, I sometimes think about the fact that I could already be a great-great-grandmother in primitive world where I got knocked up at 15, and also my firstborn female descendent of each generation. I might also have over 100 living descendents! Although likely that some of them would have died in battle given that my choice of BF at age 15 was towards the Very Fit Bad Boy type (sigh.)

it was very freeflowing from the begining

Yes, some retain soft spot at top of skull longer than others. It's also possible that those raised in largely post-modern environments have an advantage due to lack of influence of puritanical-form anti-sex religiousity and/or mid-century modern germaphobia. I mean you might be okay retreating to virtual reality at age 8 if your relaxed hippie mother let you run around naked as a toddler in the backyard. Some humans around my age only ran free outdoors hunting rabbits, etc. in situations so sex segregated that I sometimes hear very sad statements such as "I didn't know sex was something women enjoyed until I was 30." OTOH, I was hit on by the younger brother of my Sunday School teacher when I was 14, and one of my female teen friends was literally hitting it with the "sweet talking son of a preacher man", so it might be that the naturally repressed/neurotic just use Nuns with Rulers or similar as excuse.

[Anesau]

@anesau I never heared of rsin world before, so i read your journal to know i we might have similar taste.
You kinda remind ne of myself so I guess i'll enjoy it too. I imagined you heatd of or played Outer Wilds? Its worrh the hype around it. Same thing as what you said for rainworld, go blind. I think if one should only play one game in its life, it should be it.

Funny you should mention it -- a friend just recommended Outer Wilds and I started playing last week!

It's actually the only game so far that's hit a similar spot as Rain World for me. I think the similarity is that while most games hijack the brain's "work/achievement" drive, both Rain World and Outer Wilds hit the brain's "exploration/desire-to-understand" drive. I agree it's definitely worth playing (at least based on my experience so far).

[Jean]

@Jacob

I noticed you mentioned dogfighting a few time.
Would you be up to face an human opponent such as me?

[jacob]

Would you be up to face an human opponent such as me?

I presume in ED? Do you know how the PvP option in the game works? It would be nice if we didn't have to spend time setting up a time and place but could just get right into the merge---also not having to deal with accidental fines, bounties, and the rebuy screen. Dealing with Interstellar Factors because I burned off the paint job of some innocent bystander is really annoying

I currently have an all-frag iCourier that I use(d) for bounty/assassination missions and a dual-laser Vulture for pirate bashing at HiRes and HazRes sites. Both are sort of middle-engineered (so far I've visited Felicity Farseer, Todd The Blaster, and The Dweller, so engineered lasers, guns, and drives ... stock everything else). I'm currently testing out a yet-to-be-engineered Fer-de-Lance for---I dunno what the term is---"repelling attacks from megaships(?)", which is something closer to conflict zones but with bigger ships for which the Vulture is rather "inefficient". That would be my first mid-sized combat ship build.

However, I think maybe the funnest dogfighting would be to have something evenly matched, like maybe a minimum or maximum budget range?This avoids the meta-game of trying to guess what the other guy shows up in. I've definitely learned which fights to pick and which to run away from with the above ships.

[Jean]

Since you pledged to a different power than me, i think we can get free rebuy if we frame our fights as part of power play. We still have to meet to do this. But i can be anywhere in the buble with most of my ships quite quickly.
I agree that it's only fun if we hace similarly engineered ships. I have an ieagle with multicanon that would be a good match against your icourrier.
I also have a vulture, but it's probably not a fair match against yours.
The pvp meta is the fer de lance, and the best counter to it is an other fdl with a better pilot. I find smaller ships more fun to fly, but i do have a fdl if you want to fight in them.

To avoid all those inconvenience you listed, there is this cqc thing, which i never tried. Mostly because no one uses it. But i'm open to try it. I will try to find out how it works. I'll be back home in a week.
An other possibility is to try to fight griefters, but they tend to avoid combat equiped ships.

[jacob]

With some games turning into hobbies, game developers have figured out how to keep people engaged. There are three ways and since the past week or so I ultimately soured on the third to a degree that I haven't booted any of them up for days.

The first is "the streak". This is typically of the form of having to logging in daily in order to avoid losing some bonus or reward. Pokemon Go, for example, has 7-day streaks of catches and "spins". Miss one and the counter resets to 0. World or Warship has a slightly friendlier version in which it's possible to miss a few days but if you want the valuable rewards, you can't miss too many.

The second is "the grind". This is a way for free-riders (like me) to avoid paying but in turn having to play and provide some "human-AI opponents" in return for credits, merits, etc. in order to eventually get upgrades, etc. in the game. People who are willing to skip this can swipe their credit card. Based on several games, I estimate that the working wage is around $0.50/hour. IOW, an upgrade that costs $50 in game will take about 100 hours of playing to get "for free". I have no problem with that. Last year I spent a whole year working my way up to afford the Schlieffen, a memetastic cliche-ridden Tier10 BB. It felt like an accomplishment just to have it anchored in port.

I'm actually fine with both of these.

The motivational problems started when I started combining them into "the grind-streak". Here the goal is to get e.g. X merits per day in order to get some higher award. While a streak may take 5-10 minutes of effort per day, the grind-streak takes at least 1-2 hours per day if not more (5-10hrs), 15hrs if you want to be world-class(*). That's a lot to ask for something that requires a lot of concentration.

(*) Yeah, these people exist and the 5hr/day-level isn't even that rare. Realizing this was like the IRL equivalent of bitching about work-life balance working 35hrs per week and then running into a co-worked revealing that they actually work 90hrs per week and they know someone who sleeps under their desk.

Know what the grind-streak reminds me of? A job! Not a career. Not a calling or a mission. Not a hobby. A job!

It basically took what used to be internally motivated and used external rewards and daily objectives to kill that motivation. "Please complete these 5 tasks for this week" only to be "rewarded" with having to do the same again next week w/o any cohesive and larger plan(**). Ugh! It only motivated me to first figure out various hacks to get as much reward for as little effort as possible... and shortly thereafter to realize how absurd this [efficiency focus] was.

(**) A standard example would be the typical: "catch/kill 10 enemies" or "cause 200,000 in damage". Yeah, sure, okay, ... but why?

For example, there's something in Elite Dangerous (discussed above) called "AFK merit mining". The idea is that you park a heavily shielded ship in an area that sees a lot of NPC pirate activity and just leave it alone kill anything that challenges it which NPCs will inevitably do. Such a ship costs around 300-500M spacebucks which at the rate I earn spacebucks these days is around 50-100 hours of "work". AFK stands for away from keyboard and that's exactly what you do. Start the game, fly the ship over and park it, and when you come back 8 hours later, then hopefully the ship has survived the pitiful attacks and the auto-turrets will have generated XYZ in merits and RST in credits. And this, dear friends, is how one can technically become a combat expert or a ranking power player at the cost of heat and electricity, essentially phoning it in.

Now, frankly, this would be clever if you were the first one to figure out this hack. However, in this case you can just go on youtube and it'll tell you exactly how to do it ... and soon enough "everybody is doing it". This in turn changes the dynamic of the game. You can't really avoid it if you want to compete. But you also can't really compete because it's no longer about becoming a better pilot but about figuring out some exploit and "using it up" before the devs finally nerf it into oblivion.

[Jean]

Are there any streak bonus on the power play merits? I was under the impression that you'de get the same ingame reward, no mather how slowly you gain ranks.

We call the kind of mechanics that require a imense time investment "chômage to win"

But I don't really see what kind of competition you see in E:D? You don't really get any advantages decisive from the expensive stuff. It only works if you get your pleasure from your credit balance becoming bigger.

[jacob]

Are there any streak bonus on the power play merits? I was under the impression that you'de get the same ingame reward, no mather how slowly you gain ranks.

We call the kind of mechanics that require a imense time investment "chômage to win"

But I don't really see what kind of competition you see in E:D? You don't really get any advantages decisive from the expensive stuff. It only works if you get your pleasure from your credit balance becoming bigger.

There's a weekly bonus paid out depending on which percentile of your faction you fall into. It's one of the submenus (the third, I think, the one below the loyalty rewards) of the powerplay menu on the right screen in the cockpit. I figured out how to generate about 3000 merits/hour from scans and combat kills doing heist missions. A HighRes site in a stronghold or reinforcement system yields about 2000 combat/scan merits per hour. Note, this might be Patreus specific. I've made it to the top 25% percentile of players once but that required about 50,000 merits. Some quick math shows that this is 15-25hrs of bounty hunting per week. It doesn't require a streak, but taking a day off => playing catch up.

However, the top10 power players for DP start at about 300,000/week and #1 is well over 1M/week Even at my max earnings-rate, there aren't enough hours in the week. I saw someone claiming he could do 10k merits/hour, which would be what's required insofar people spend 8hrs+/day. And I'm pretty sure some of them do. (I've seen people mention spending 5hrs every night of the week w/o considering it a big deal. They're just hooked.)

BTW, this is using my new Fer-de-lance with this configuration worth about 200M starbucks. It's able to deal with most things put in front of it w/o too much effort or fancy flying. This turns collecting merits and bounties into a grind. Unlike the excitement of my first elite-NPC victory above, this ship eats them for breakfast. To be fair, I haven't taken it into a conflict zone yet. Maybe I should do that. Otherwise, this is definitely an advantage over my iCourier which cost about 1/20th of that and only "mined" at about half the rate if that.

In that sense, I put myself a bit in a pickle by studying the meta-game too much. It was definitely more fun flying the iCourier, but it's also hard to go back and handicap myself by deliberately choosing a less powerful ship to do the same job at a slower rate.

Add: The earnings rate for combat depends on how long it takes to kill a target. Since these scenarios have an infinite supply of targets, the faster the kill, the more kills per hour. Another advantage of the Fer-de-lance is that it has increased hang-time before running out of ammo. The iCourier needs a lot of time going back to base to rearm.

The TL;DR/conclusion is that there are aspects to these [types of] games which make it easy/tempting/possible to turn them into a job which in turn ruins the fun of them ... or at least my fun. Knowing this, I'm going to be more deliberate and careful in terms of how exactly I approach a game in terms of goals and/or process. I think there are some real world lessons to this too insofar games are a metaphor for aspects of real life.