Survival

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Survival

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

take2 wrote:for some people who are exceptionally good at being social / building a community then 10 years is more than enough time to build roots.
I think that "building roots" is a level beyond "establishing yourself as valued member of community" and likely requires a generational commitment, but there are some fairly easy methods by which one might achieve the second, even if you aren't exceptionally good at being social. For example, I have discovered that working as a part-time substitute teacher at the neighborhood elementary school will establish you as a member of the community in good standing within a year, although my caveat would be that this is more true in a neighborhood or small town where help is needed than in an affluent highly professionalized realm where this might brand you more "useful servant." Further note here being that affluent, highly professionalized, commuter-suburban realms rarely function very well as community-base for anyone.

A few of my close female relatives are exceptionally good at this task, and they largely achieve it by joining groups such as local sports teams, choirs, churches or non-religious church-like organizations, and by always and everywhere introducing themselves to other people, making connections, and frequently arranging and hostessing all sorts of social events at their own homes or elsewhere. I'm only borderline extroverted, so it looks pretty exhausting to me, but it definitely can be done. It has also been my experience that having a male partner who is a roaming and/or established extravert will embed "just reasonably friendly" me within his social milieu very quickly. A couple rounds of "What are you doing with this bum? Ha-ha-ha." and I am part of the gang. It has also been my experience that it is more difficult to establish myself in a community if/when my male partner is quite introverted and unwilling to do couple things. In fact, it's quite a bit easier to establish myself in a community as a single person than when I have an introverted partner who is unwilling to do couple things or a partner who is a socially-offensive extravert, but when I have a partner who is socially pleasant then we are "golden." Unfortunately, the last male partner I had who actually qualified as entirely "socially pleasant" was married to another woman.

Frita
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Re: Survival

Post by Frita »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2024 7:36 am
I think that "building roots" is a level beyond "establishing yourself as valued member of community" and likely requires a generational commitment, but there are some fairly easy methods by which one might achieve the second, even if you aren't exceptionally good at being social.
I agree. For my spouse’s career, we did a fair amount of moving. I found that blending in, or at least appearing to, is important too. For example: In Tulsa, I wore makeup, cut/curled my hair, and put on some lbs. Most people need this visual validation. This might be more pronounced for women.

“Building roots” may also entail a deep sense of belonging and acceptance. You touched on the generational aspect. How does not being a native to the area, even with subsequent generations root, affect the outcome?

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loutfard
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Re: Survival

Post by loutfard »

Frita wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2024 10:00 am
“Building roots” may also entail a deep sense of belonging and acceptance. You touched on the generational aspect. How does not being a native to the area, even with subsequent generations root, affect the outcome?
Strange as it may seem, where we live in summer, people seem to be positively curious. I seem to beat local expectations of white male European, speaks the local language, respect for local sensitivities, friendly and polite, heterosexual, affluent, good links with a well-respected local family.

Contrast that with a friend who moved 30km away from his native city of Antwerp. Fourty years later, the local farmer families still treated him as an intruder despite active participation in church life, four kids going to the local school, being involved in scouting, the local wine guild and whatnot.

I wouldn't underestimate the sheer luck of moving to a place with an abundance of plain decent people.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Survival

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Frita wrote: I found that blending in, or at least appearing to, is important too. For example: In Tulsa, I wore makeup, cut/curled my hair, and put on some lbs. Most people need this visual validation. This might be more pronounced for women.
Yes, I agree that this is true, but I pretty much never bother to do this. I think there is something about being the eldest of 4 bratty sisters and/or my frugal introverted side that causes me to mostly only want to associate with other women as women or as gender-neutral-brains-in-jar-humans, rather than as "girls" or "ladies." As in zero desire to be asked to join "the girls" for Margaritas at Applebees after work and talk about shopping on the internet, but I'm there for you if you need somebody to watch your twins for the weekend while you deal with your grandmother's funeral, and I am very happy you invited me to your cool art exhibit at the abandoned pickle factory or your post-feminist stitch and bitch session or the organizational meeting for creating a sanctuary for refugee immigrants, but since these are the sort of events my younger sisters or my daughter or my ex-step-daughters or my niece, etc. etc. would invite me to, I am already usually covered to the extent that I prefer to be social and/or I'm not maybe doing entirely different kinds of things with one of my male poly-partners.

So, the being part of the community feeling I like to get from substitute teaching is more like running into one of my youngest students at the hardware store and getting a hug or marching with everybody in the Halloween Parade or being thanked for my service to the community by some old guy after observing me spend an hour very patiently attempting to explain the concept of negative numbers to a disadvantaged minority group teen. I'm definitely a more introverted/subdued 7 on the edge of 6, so my 6 or Fe edge likes a bit of service/tradition/"cottage" mixed in with all the type 7 (NeTi) nerdy jazzamatazz. Although, now that I'm about to turn 60, have moved back to my hometown, and have become sexually re-involved with my second "husband", I find myself almost overwhelmed with warm backwards glancing (Si) sentiment on a daily basis.

Frita
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Re: Survival

Post by Frita »

loutfard wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2024 10:19 am
I wouldn't underestimate the sheer luck of moving to a place with an abundance of plain decent people.
This is another thing to keep in mind (and not take personally). Some communities are more open, while others are closed. Where we live, it’s more the later. There are superficial “community” events that are more being alone together. The interesting thing is people initially *seem* more friendly, community-oriented with potential to be emotionally mature. What I have learned is the importance to visit places to get a feel for what one is getting into.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2024 11:24 am
I wonder if there is a difference in moving to a place with the intention to stay versus a more temporary situation. The visual blending can open doors, but if conforming to something undesirable is a requirement, one is still on the outs. For example, if women have those fake sewn-on eye lashes and spackled on makeup, wearing BB cream with mascara and tinted lip balm doesn’t cut it (my experience).

Moving back to your hometown must be very interesting. It sounds like your second “husband” has been happy about it. What’s up with the reactions from others?

7Wannabe5
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Re: Survival

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Frita wrote:I wonder if there is a difference in moving to a place with the intention to stay versus a more temporary situation. The visual blending can open doors, but if conforming to something undesirable is a requirement, one is still on the outs. For example, if women have those fake sewn-on eye lashes and spackled on makeup, wearing BB cream with mascara and tinted lip balm doesn’t cut it (my experience).
This line of questioning is making me realize/remember that I'm pretty socially passive, because attempting to conform requires a certain amount of effort which I am rarely willing to make. There's likely something snobbish about my tendency to sloppy appearance; like I have more important things with which to concern myself. My mother tend towards shopaholic fashionista even in her current decrepit state, so there are literally 50 or 60 different dresses which she can still pull over head hanging on hooks circling around the walls of her room-which-is-giant-closet. So, after I baked the pies Thanksgiving morning, I grabbed a dress off the wall that looked autumnal and pulled on some black tights, and brushed my hair back into a bun. Done. I usually don't even go to that much trouble. Although I do make the effort to put on a bra before I wander down the hall to the laundry room, because I sometimes run into this cute, friendly, very tall, athletic build, silver-haired, African-American gentleman. He said, "I don't believe it!" when I told him that although I am staying with my mother, I am certainly old enough to be living in the complex myself. :lol:
What’s up with the reactions from others?
Well, my family is very happy. Since I am now centrally located, they are frequently stopping by to visit. Lots of people from my college and bookstore days still live here, so have already randomly encountered an old acquaintance or three. My new location is somewhat less convenient for my remaining semi-poly-partners, but one of them keeps in frequent touch via text/phone and says he's going to drive out and take me to dinner, and another is still banned from seeing me by his wife, but he called me to tell me he rode his bicycle past all our old haunts and he misses me. And the third one I am pretty much out of touch with now, but he checks in with me once in a while. The thing with my second "husband" is good right now, but likely non-sustainable. It's kind of like we keep spending the same Groundhog Day together over and over. because we can't go back to our past or forwards to more of a future together, and also because his house looks exactly the same down to the refrigerator magnets, and he has only added one new restaurant to his rotation of three, and he even keeps asking me, "Have we tried the Korean place?" Also, his quite elderly next-door neighbor was out power-walking and when he saw me he yelled, "Hey, hello! Which one are you again?", but he won't continue having sex with me if I have sex with other men, because it's against his religion and his temperament, and highly unlikely that I will tolerate polygyny, as opposed to polyamory, for very long.

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Sclass
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Re: Survival

Post by Sclass »

My house in Altadena got burned to the ground. I was going to post it in the fixit log but it is beyond superglue and 3d printing to put it back together.

Some background. I inherited the house from my folks this year. I cleared the title a month ago and cleaned the house out. My intent was to sell it about now. The house was to list for $2,000,000 but now it’s worthless given the market in the neighborhood. It was paid off decades ago and has been uninsured (self insured?) for decades.

Got rejected by FEMA. It’s a second home. Doesn’t count. I guess I should count my blessings it was a second home. My neighbors are all living in hotels.

Would insurance have helped? My neighbors seem to be fighting for a few hundred thousand to rebuild their homes. I don’t want to do that even if I was given the money by an underwriter. Reconstruction sounds like too much headache. I still wouldn’t be able to sell right now.

Also DIY firefighting. I’ve had friends do it up there and win in prior years. An old friend was on the news last night with a GoPro vid of him fighting the fire with his son. He won. But now he has a single house in a war zone. Not quite where I was before the fire ripped through. The marketability of the home is killed by the destruction of the entire community.

Thankfully I am ERE and I live on < 1% SWR. I have this fantasy of fighting the fire. But I was in bed in Irvine sixty miles away at the time watching the newscasts on my iPhone. The house was empty and vacant.

So yeah. I’m sick of people saying “sclass at least you’re alive.” But yeah…$2,000,000 is irrelevant if you’re dead. And it wouldn’t have been $2,000,000 which was the price before the fire. A standing home in the wasteland is worth significantly less. So that fantasy option doesn’t even sound good now.

Well I am still processing all of this. Basically I am seeing a big cleanup for a year to five years. Thank goodness I didn’t need an inheritance. I just fixed the exhaust pipe on my Mercedes and I’ll be going down to my favorite taqueria for pollo mole…oh like now, it’s lunchtime. My life will not change at all. But it still stings.

This is Richard Feynman’s house which is a block away. Since some of you like Feynman a lot. My place burned a bit cleaner likely because it was completely empty. Just posted it because I’d rather not show my home but it look’s just like the Feynmans.

https://services1.arcgis.com/jUJYIo9tSA ... ents/15252

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Re: Survival

Post by theanimal »

Oh man, I'm sorry to hear that @sclass. I'm glad you're in a position where it's not as big a deal as it could've been. Still stings as you say.

chenda
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Re: Survival

Post by chenda »

Oh SClass that's awful to hear.

Well maybe the land value will recover over the years and you'll be able to recoup some of your losses.

ffj
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Re: Survival

Post by ffj »

@Sclass

Wow, that's awful. What a waste of resources. It has to make you sick whether you needed the money or not. Sorry that happened to you.

I followed the fires closely once I saw some footage of them Tuesday evening. I told my wife before she went to bed this was going to be headline news in the morning. There are some fires once they get big enough you aren't going to put it out until the fuel is all gone.

I would like to hear your thoughts on the whole situation if you ever feel like discussing. No worries if it is too raw. Happy it wasn't your primary residence.

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Sclass
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Re: Survival

Post by Sclass »

@ffj well I am no expert on this stuff. From what I saw from phone videos the fires were moving house to house at a rapid rate. Flames going sideways. The wind was unbelievable. The fire was spreading with a combination of flying embers and wind driven flames from next door neighbor's burning homes. I’m not sure one can easily stop that unless you bulldoze a home or two ahead of the flames. So the houses were falling like dominoes and the front was spreading by embers falling from the sky at the same time.

I’m not sure if there was even a chance to fight. My understanding is the LAFD just turned tail and ran. There were LAFD at the canyon wall defending the first line of homes and the embers seemed to have jumped over them and ignited many homes deep inside the neighborhood. There’s actually a band of standing homes upwind of me that it seemed to hop over before it continued on its path of destruction…likely because it started burning the homes deep behind the front line of defense. It became a containment thing and not save my home thing. I don’t blame them really but everyone is angry and looking for anyone to blame from our governor on down. I don’t really know enough because I wasn’t there.

Part of me wishes I had been up there that day to set out sprinklers and cut trees. To do so I’d have to have 20/20 foresight. But I may have died. They found a body near my house with a hose in his hand. The smoke was thick. The embers looked like little bullets going sideways. I likely would have died if I’d tried to put up a fight. It’s a fantasy i keep playing though. I have to keep telling myself it’s over.

Some of the people who fought and won had their own firefighting equipment. They had pumps. They had pools to siphon from. Some guys had sprinklers set up. Other guys sprinkled fire retardant. My friend said he fought spot fires with a bucket of pool water and pressure washer.

I’ve been at some big bonfires as a kid and witnessed the intense radiant heat of a giant fire. When I imagine that being wind driven at 100mph it will likely cook your skin, lungs and smoke you unconscious. You tell me.

There are a few homes here and there that survived. There was a little cluster on my street. It is pretty obvious that one house didn’t go up and it saved the two downwind. This house had a big wall around the house and no garden. Just cement patio all over. The fire eventually hopped over three houses and continued.

What was really interesting is a lot of my trees didn’t burn down. Just the house. The shrubs in front of my place were still there. The fruit was still on my trees. But the house is gone. I’ve watched a bunch of videos on fire hardening a home’s exterior and I realize my 100 year old place had several weak spots. But that’s over now.

I regretted not being prepared or being there. I was overconfident after observing decades of fires in the neighboring (Angeles National) forest. They never penetrated into the neighborhood. This was a wind unlike any other. It took out my place and penetrated miles into the city. The LAFD defended at the major boulevards and it rolled right over them. People are finger pointing at the LAFD but it may have just been an unbeatable firestorm.

As for the financials…yep. That stings. But I’ll live. I was doing just fine before all this. I’m ERE.

NewBlood
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Re: Survival

Post by NewBlood »

So sorry to hear about your house (and all others) Sclass.
I'm glad you're alive and ok. If it's any consolation about not trying to fight it, my understanding is that they still haven't let people in Lahaina return to their houses (even the ones remaining) because there is too much toxic material all around. (I haven't followed closely in a while though). So I wonder what's gonna happen to the few people with standing houses. Can they still live there right now? What are they breathing?

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Re: Survival

Post by jacob »

Sclass wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2025 9:34 pm
I regretted not being prepared or being there. I was overconfident after observing decades of fires in the neighboring (Angeles National) forest. They never penetrated into the neighborhood. This was a wind unlike any other. It took out my place and penetrated miles into the city. The LAFD defended at the major boulevards and it rolled right over them. People are finger pointing at the LAFD but it may have just been an unbeatable firestorm.
This is a pretty common perspective. Even otherwise well-informed people, who know they're technically/theoretically/statistically living in a region at risk for disasters, believe that the predicted outcomes are something that applies to other people elsewhere, not to those of us, who live here where "it's never happened before". The latest previous example was Asheville, NC, which some even residents touted as a "climate haven". Yet taking an informed but more importantly an outside (personally uninvested) look at couple of maps and ... yikes!

Understanding/trusting theoretical predictions enough to personally act on it is so rare in almost all fields. FIRE---specifically pulling the early retirement lever once the math says yes---is one. Taking an investment position before the crowd is another example.

Peter Kalmus wrote a book, which has been mentioned before on the forum, about "being the change" ( https://www.amazon.com/Being-Change-Spa ... 0865718539 ). Turns out he actually used to live in one of the houses that burned down but saw the writing on the wall, acted on it and sold the house and moved to a less risky area two years ago. He's currently doing the media rounds now. Why? Because acting on truth is so rare. It's the equivalent of "man bites dog" or "man doesn't spend everything he earns".

We can argue whether one should double down and rebuild while preparing to fight the next eventual raze, hurricane, or flooding, or prepare to go live in another place that is not in a compromised zone. This probably comes down to a preference for tactical vs strategic action. And whether one can put the 3% annual risk of losing everything in the back of one's mind when the place is otherwise very nice to live in (I can't).

Anyhoo, I'm glad you lived to tell the tale and that it doesn't have a material financial impact. I just had to get that off my chest giving the thread title and all.

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Re: Survival

Post by chenda »

jacob wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 7:32 am
Yet taking an informed but more importantly an outside (personally uninvested) look at couple of maps and ... yikes!
Do you have a set criteria or checklist you use to assess locations ?

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Sclass
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Re: Survival

Post by Sclass »

jacob wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 7:32 am
I just had to get that off my chest giving the thread title and all.
Well that’s good. I hope you feel better now.

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Sclass
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Re: Survival

Post by Sclass »

jacob wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 7:32 am

Peter Kalmus wrote a book, which has been mentioned before on the forum, about "being the change" ( https://www.amazon.com/Being-Change-Spa ... 0865718539 ). Turns out he actually used to live in one of the houses that burned down but saw the writing on the wall, acted on it and sold the house and moved to a less risky area two years ago. He's currently doing the media rounds now. Why? Because acting on truth is so rare.
When I watched this guy’s interview I thought “why?” I completely missed his rant and just wondered why a young underpaid JPL scientist would try to raise a family near JPL. I’d have left the area under his circumstances. Living in the sticks and writing pop science books is much smarter than chasing fleeting grants at NASA.

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Re: Survival

Post by jacob »

chenda wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:00 am
Do you have a set criteria or checklist you use to assess locations ?
Yes, I do. There does not seem to be a place that meets all criteria (which have been discussed many times before on the forum) but some places meet almost all and some meet almost none. It's no different than picking an investment. It's never going to be perfect, but some investments are obviously bad.

A quote from two months ago ...
jacob wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2024 5:27 pm
It's analogous to the hurricanes that regularly hit the US-SE or the wildfires that regularly hit the US-SW/W or EU-S. Very very many warnings and the certain knowledge that in the future any given city will be hit and wiped out eventually. Yet, what is not known is whether that will happen next month or next year or 60+ years from now... so most people stay. This is also why Florida beach estate still has value. You'll even find suggestions on this forum where someone recommends moving to Portugal, Spain, or Italy on a regular basis.
Also talked to a forumite from Tampa a few months before that [storm surge/hurricane] happened. I don't know if he managed to move or what happened. It doesn't really make me feel better knowing or saying this. It does make my mind better though. Even if it is a giant Cassandra complex, maybe saying/hearing it will make a difference for the next one ...
Sclass wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:47 am
When I watched this guy’s interview I thought “why?” I completely missed his rant and just wondered why a young underpaid JPL scientist would try to raise a family near JPL. I’d have left the area under his circumstances. Living in the sticks and writing pop science books is much smarter than chasing fleeting grants at NASA.
I can't speak for him, obviously, but we do have a few things in common. Both astrophysicists working for big labs in California. Both been aware of the predicament for a long time. Both, I'm guessing, having smelled/seen smoke clouds on the horizon from where we lived. Both trying to be the change. But making career(*) transition away from an otherwise desolate grant space (only a very limited number of places in the world to do astrophysics). But then there's the way it works in practice.

(*) Also, scientists tend to see their work as a calling rather than a career or a job. It's part of one's identity.

It's not the case that relocation changes or career moves happens after having an instant flash of an idea :idea: and making such a consequential decision. More likely (definitely in my case) it's a weighing between an uncertain variable that gets worse and worse vs other sets of variables that may be better. The boiling frog metaphor applies insofar the rising temperature = rising risk. As the risk slowly increases, certain frogs are well aware of it even if they stay in the water. However, at some point, a few frogs will actually decide to jump. It's likely (as I debated with @Ego above) that this will be determined more by simply having other opportunities offered that make the risk solution obvious (e.g. by being inherently mobile) than suddenly seeing "the writing on the wall" on a given day and then making the move. In other words, most cases are of the "frog is acutely aware of the writing on the wall and will take the first chance out when given but not make their own chances". As such people who have more chances AND who are aware of the need to leave are much more likely to get out. For example, almost all major early 20th century European philosophers managed to leave Europe sometime during the 1930s. Returning to the metaphor, informed frogs who tend to be jumpy are much less likely to be boiled. Both awareness and jumpiness are required though. Plenty of smart people stick around in situations because they convince themselves that they are somehow an exception from the consequences of their own beliefs. They know, but they don't jump.

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Sclass
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Re: Survival

Post by Sclass »

jacob wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 9:08 am
I can't speak for him, obviously, but we do have a few things in common.

…. Plenty of smart people stick around in situations because they convince themselves that they are somehow an exception from the consequences of their own beliefs. They know, but they don't jump.
Yeah I have some things in common with him too. I grew up in Altadena. I’m also a phd scientist who fled Silicon Valley because I couldn’t afford to work and live there.

Altadena is a funny place. It was a redline refuge for blacks fleeing the violence of south la. It was also the cal tech/JPL company town. Basically Rodney king went to high school alongside Feynman’s kid. You always knew the family with the dad working on the Viking, Voyager etc. probes because the nerds all hung out.

This was a tough life back then. You work at a government lab and you pay for LA housing. Now it’s damn near impossible to make that work. My pals would invite me over to play with their dad’s ham set or homemade z80 microcomputer inside of their ramshackle house. It was a tough life for the JPL people. At least the cal tech dads could draw double (cal tech+jpl) salaries. The JPL guys just got 1x.

So while it is convenient for the guy to say he fled to save himself from the wildfire two years in advance. I’m like sure buddy. You fled because you couldn’t afford the life you wanted in LA. Now you’re on TV with tears in your eyes saying i told you so. Read/buy my book. I get it. Silicon Valley has the same problem and I am an economic refugee of that debacle. So are you.

ETA - yeah wait. You were working at a national lab. You worked lived in the Bay Area. You found a way out. And you published a book about it. You actually have a lot in common with him. I guess I do too.

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Re: Survival

Post by jacob »

Sclass wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 9:27 am
So while it is convenient for the guy to say he fled to save himself from the wildfire two years in advance. I’m like sure buddy. You fled because you couldn’t afford the life you wanted in LA. Now you’re on TV with tears in your eyes saying i told you so. Read/buy my book. I get it. Silicon Valley has the same problem and I am an economic refugee of that debacle. So are you.
I can't speak for him, but I think my arguments, which are usually consistent as well as coherent over many years, are pretty well-documented on the forum. I could well afford the life I wanted when living in the East Bay (see ERE blog)--locals squabble over whether that area is technically part of SV or just across the border. There were solutions that didn't require the $4,000/month mortgages (at the time) that the locals assumed were a given. We paid less than 1/10th of that to rent our RV lot.

I've also advocated "when you move, always move northwards" for about as long (since from about 2009 when I worked at a non-profit that covered integral solutions to the climate issue as well.) Frogwise, I knew the "boiling water" situation and lived that knowledge (the entire premise of the blog). I took one of the first chances towards cooler waters that were presented to me. A fair counterpoint would be that upon knowing, I didn't immediately pull up the tent pegs (or start up the RV as it was). OTOH, I deliberately rejected options involving settling southwards. I am not an economic refugee.

Also, I apologize for bringing this up at what I know is not the best time to do so. "This is why we don't invite @jacob to funerals or baby showers..."

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Jean
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Re: Survival

Post by Jean »

You where on the way out. It's bad luck that the fire happened before you could sell. Thanks to a set of past good decision, you don't need the money
You chose not to go, it might have saved your life.
Given the control you had on the situation, you managed a good outcome i find.
I wish you what it takes to get over the loss.

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