Obtaining a Second Passport

[delay]

A Dutch politician once said the government of a European country is like a thin layer. Above it are various super governmental organisations like the European Union, the United Nations, the European Free Trade Association, and so on. Below it are regions, provinces and cities.

These layers are becoming increasingly interchangeable. The Netherlands is comparable in size to a region in Italy. What is the difference? Both are converging in most policy aspects. As a human, a government layer is how Globocorp presents itself to one of your identities, to the Dutch or to the Campanians, to the citizens of Amsterdam or Naples, to the neighbourhood of Bijlmer or Arenella.

Italy already has five autonomous regions three of which lie on the Northern borders. If Italy creates a new subdivision that means Globocorp sees value in presenting itself differently to Southern and Northern Italians. It just accelerates the process of increasingly thin government layers. It looks like a small change to me, nothing to worry about or relocate for.

[chenda]

There has been a movement in the past few years to disconnect the poorer south of Italy from the wealthy north. It seems to be gaining steam.

I believe such a movement has been going on for many decades, driven by wealthy northerners who see the poorer south as free riding off then. I don't think it's ever likely to happen. More likely there will simple be less internal financial aid to the south and more of a socio-economic divide.

It's very rare nations voluntarily make themselves smaller. The only example I can think of is Malaysia expelling Singapore in the 1950s.

[zbigi]

I think such things happen slowly and you'll be given plenty of time in advance, if anything like that is ever decided. Brexit was drastic because it was decided out of the blue in a referendum (vs a political process, which would take time and be observable), and still gave people over 5 years to decide where they want to live from now on.

[Seppia]

The Lega Nord (the party advocating for secession of the north from south) was pushing for it 30 or so years ago.
They never got more than 10-12% of the vote with these policies.
Since Salvini took the leadership role, Lega Nord has become a typical populist party, with less ties to the north, so no secession talks lately.

As an Italian, I think the chances of this happening in the next decade are zero.

[Ego]

It just accelerates the process of increasingly thin government layers. It looks like a small change to me, nothing to worry about or relocate for.

Interesting point. We are in Palermo now and it feels not only like a different country from Northern and Central Italy... it feels like a different continent. More like Mexico City than Europe. We are loving it.

It's very rare nations voluntarily make themselves smaller. .

Very true. It would have to get extremely dysfunctional for that to happen.

I think such things happen slowly and you'll be given plenty of time in advance, if anything like that is ever decided.

That makes sense. I was just wondering if the Devolution Plan was a step in that direction.

As an Italian, I think the chances of this happening in the next decade are zero.

Excellent, I was hoping you would chime in. I do not have much contact with the comune but figured that if I need something in the future, it would be better to be registered somewhere where they are open more than a few hours a week. If the north>south support is going to be cut, things will likely get worse.

Since posting this I learned that the government does not allow non-resident citizens to change their comune unless they have a spouse or child living in the comune they wish to switch to. We have neither, so it looks like we are stuck for now unless we decide to take up residency.

Thanks all!

[delay]

no secession talks lately

Good to read an Italian's point of view! The YouTube link in Ego's post talks about devolution not secession. Like creating a new Federation of Southern States that would be something like an autonomous region within Italy. How likely is that would you think?

[jacob]

It's very rare nations voluntarily make themselves smaller. The only example I can think of is Malaysia expelling Singapore in the 1950s.

You must have missed the entire decolonization era of the latter 20th century? Also see Asia and Africa.

Voluntary reasons for making a country smaller includes international goodwill from giving people their liberty; no longer being willing or having to pay for the upkeep or defense of "non-performing"-regions; or simply mutually agreeable "cultural differences".

Examples of European countries that have voluntarily made themselves smaller in my lifetime includes Czechoslovakia splitting up in 1992 and the EU letting go of the UK in 2016. And for a reverse case, Germany making itself bigger in 1991. I'm tempted to include the break up of the USSR although the Russian state obviously has some regrets in that regard, so that probably doesn't count. (And just to make my life as moderator easier, lets not go into concurrent detail with that here!!!)

Perhaps myCountry is more in the habit of it than normal. I count splitting up with Norway in 1814. Splitting up with Schlegswig-Holstein in 1920. Splitting up with Iceland in 1944. Likely splitting up with Greenland within my lifetime.

While it statistically happens to a random individual less than once in a lifetime, borders get rearranged all the time. I can't think of an example where nations exclusively strive for more territory anymore. Those where the farming days. These days (for a good 100+ years) it's more about natural resources or the industrial capacity to process them and transport them. This is where the fault lines are and where wars are fought.

Thus ... conflict tend to be where industry/resource/transport lines mismatch with traditional culture/flag waving/identify lines. Fighting/breakups happen when people disagree/agree which of the two paradigms are more important.

As much as more passports sound like fun, don't forget that it's really about citizenship and that citizenship comes with the obligation of the "culture/flag waving/identify"-nation state. What is currently a "travel-lifehack" might ultimately come with being drafted to fight a border war.

[loutfard]

Thus ... conflict tend to be where industry/resource/transport lines mismatch with traditional culture/flag waving/identify lines. Fighting/breakups happen when people disagree/agree which of the two paradigms are more important.

"When", but not "because". Important symptoms and probably a necessary condition, but not necessarily causality.

What is currently a "travel-lifehack" might ultimately come with being drafted to fight a border war.

You've just described the main argument for me not to get a Latvian passport.

[chenda]

You must have missed the entire decolonization era of the latter 20th century? Also see Asia and Africa.

I would argue that decolonisation was largely involuntary on the part of the colonial power and voluntary on the colony, inasmuch colonial rule would have likely continued without anti-colonial/nationalist movements demanding autonomy, together with diminishing profitability and ability of the colonial power to defend or control the colony. The scenario I am talking about are nations expelling parts of their territory against the wishes of the expelled. I assume most southern Italians are not agitating for formal succession from Italy (but maybe some are ?) Not that there aren't often loyalists groups who oppose independence such as Ulster Unionism. The only other historic examples I can think of are land purchases like Alaska, or colonial swapsies like the Dutch exchanging Manhattan for Suriname. It seems more common for nations to hold on to territory for reasons of national pride, even if its economically irrational.

[Seppia]

What is currently a "travel-lifehack" might ultimately come with being drafted to fight a border war.

Not if you are alert and quick enough to jump on that plane for South America on short notice.

“Don’t panic, but if you do, panic first”

[Ego]

There has been a big change for those interested in obtaining Italian citizenship through Jure Sanguinis (by descent). The Italian supreme court ruled on what is being called the "Minor Issue". Previously, if the ancestor came to the US (or another country) and had children before they naturalized, then those children were considered Italian citizens, regardless of the age of the children at the time of naturalization. The ruling changed this. Now, the offspring must have reached majority (21 years) before the naturalization took place in order for the citizenship to pass to them.

Back then the naturalization process took about ten years. Most immigrants applied for citizenship the moment they got off the boat, so they had children before the naturalization was approved. This is the case for most people, including me. Fortunately, I have already been recognized. There are a lot of people who are very sad about the new ruling. For years, Italian consulates have been slow rolling the recognition of the Jure Sanguinis applications, so there are many people in the pipeline who are now automatically disqualified.

That said, we have encountered a few American boomers who got their citizenship and have relocated. Their big talking points are the low cost of living mostly due to free/extremely inexpensive healthcare and the 7% flat tax rate for ten years for those relocating to small villages.

If the tables were turned and senior Italians were relocating to the US for government benefits and low taxes, Americans would not be thrilled. I can imagine why the government would want to discourage this.

[zbigi]

If the tables were turned and senior Italians were relocating to the US for government benefits and low taxes, Americans would not be thrilled. I can imagine why the government would want to discourage this.

These people come with money though. Their assets, pensions and SS checks will be taxed and spent in Italy. Sure, they get free healthcare for that, but Italy may still come out ahead. Also, most healthcare spending is in peoples' final year of life, so they're not a big burden yet.

[Ego]

These people come with money though. Their assets, pensions and SS checks will be taxed and spent in Italy. Sure, they get free healthcare for that, but Italy may still come out ahead.

True, but how much will they spend vs how much will they cost?

This is a good ERE-style video example of a woman who moved from Long Beach, California to Piedmont, Italy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwGwbY4aaJE



She uses some wonky cashflow-thinking for housing, as she counts the annual cost of her mortgage in Long Beach, but not the cost of the outright purchase of the home in Piedmont. Even with the flaws, it gives a good overview.

[delay]

Even with the flaws, it gives a good overview.

How likely is it that you can maintain a house in Italy for $339 a year?

[chenda]

How likely is it that you can maintain a house in Italy for $339 a year?

I'm guessing that's the property taxes, the long term maintenance costs would be additional.

[Seppia]

How likely is it that you can maintain a house in Italy for $339 a year?

Zero, unless you plan on skipping upkeep costs and are ready to leave the property in a less valuable state than when you entered, which is probably the case.
But unless she bought new / she plans to pass relatively early, some major work will be needed (ie roofs last 20 years or so).
Most probably, she just isn’t great at math

[Western Red Cedar]

I qualify for a UK passport as I think I mentioned in the past on this thread due to "born before 1983 to a British mother". The fees have dramatically come down -- it's now only $80 GBP (earmarked for the citizenship ceremony). It's another ~$85 GBP to get the passport I believe. In the past, the fees were quite a bit higher. Posting here just in case anyone else is pursuing British citizenship.

Brexit took the luster off the whole thing to some degree (to me) but things can change and I think this time around I'm going to do it as is another sibling.

Did you or your sibling pursue this? I qualify as well and it looks like the process for obtaining a passport is fairly straightforward.