Frita’s Lost and Found

[Frita]

Yesterday was a stay in bed, read, and feel depressed day. Today I am back to getting things done with plenty of ugly crying. Every fiber of my body feels disgusted and worthy of something better. Physical today, my doctor told me to leave, referred me to a lawyer (two others also referred the same person who they described as a “pitbull”), and shared she left her first husband under similar circumstances. I hate all of this and know it needs to happen nonetheless.

Putting aside the emotional aspects (which, of course, are 95% of it), I'd encourage you to talk to a lawyer. And I hope, hope, hope he hides assets. Judges love that.

So, an uncontested divorce is in the same magical thinking category as mediation, right?

Update: It seems that some historically joint accounts are now solely his. I need my own lawyer, yesterday.

[suomalainen]

@jason wrote this for me and now I pass it on to you:

Break up songs are often reflections on how things ended before they were stopped. Life doesn't end. It stops. For you. People tell me all the time "Stop being an asshole" as opposed to "Your time as an asshole has ended" because they know better. Mother's say "Stop being a baby" because they know you will always be a fucking baby. It's something I think about. Not stopping being an asshole or a baby but the difference between ending and stopping.

Your marriage has very clearly ended. There will be time for the various stages of grief, but yeah, probably time to stop the train wreck. It's hard, but you clearly are capable of handling it. Best of luck.

And yes, a collaborative or mediated divorce is probably a pipe dream. But, you never know. Sometimes after you punch a bully in the mouth, you realize what a scared sack of shit he really is.

[UrbanHomesteader]

Just letting you know we are rooting for you.

With your comments about the previously joint accounts, it sounds like the husband has been making offensive moves already and you need to take formal action yourself.

[7Wannabe5]

The landscape of divorce exists at the chaotic edge, so it is entirely possible to be engaged in an amicable dissolution one moment and firestorm of conflict or grief in the next. Jason's comments on ending vs. stopping were quite insightful. Unfortunately, it is also the case that you must travel through the tender landscape of "major relationship rebound" for at least 2 months X years you were together during which it is advised that you should not make any major decisions. NOTE: Knocking boots with a sexy, appreciative other does not constitute a major decision.

[Frita]

It seems like I have been walking through a world-sized vat of Jello. While moving, the progress is slow in a foreign landscape.
• I decided to not apply for the position in a small farming town. It’s not where I want to live, which was why I decided against it in the spring. The resurgence of the idea was more to avoid getting divorced.
• Some less than positive news came back from some testing I had at the hospital. Nothing that hasn’t been on my radar, just not something within my control. My spouse responded by ignoring that I might have some feelings about my shortened lifespan and told me I could buy a better insurance plan next year. I thought,”Is this who I want to spend my last years with?” and got a “heck, no!”
• I had consult with the pitbull lawyer. Interesting experience, I think my P drives her J crazy. Starting the paperwork on Monday. My spouse and I actually have agreed to terms. He wants to do this together rather than me just file. (Oddly, I believe he liked to threaten divorce sometime in the future rather than having a clear plan to do it.) We’ll see. She won’t tolerate his BS. I think he might be scared.
• Our son has decided he doesn’t want to live with his dad. He’s scared of him. My husband seems pretty crushed and doesn’t understand that kids want their parents to actually care about them.
• My spouse will be moving out and leaving town. Currently, he’s still in the basement and doesn’t interact with us.
• I read Lundy Bancroft’s “Should I Stay or Should I Go?” There are some good exercises with more nuance than “Why Does He Do That?” I feel less guilty about being such a waffling slowpoke. I want to reread it. I have a lot of processing to do.
• Resuming my pre-crewing routine is not going well. My sleep, exercise, food, and hydration are all over the place. Lots of ugly crying with some sudden bouts of sleeping thrown in.
• I am second guessing myself wondering if I am giving up too soon or should just switch to a legal separation. This is so crazy. I more just observe this nonsensical high-wired survival mechanism running its program. Once it short-circuits, I need a nap. I wake up with my hands in tight fists.

@suo
Thanks for sharing @jason’s observations on ending versus stopping. The latter is active. I don’t even recognize myself but am taking those steps, separating that from grieving.

@UrbanHomesteader
I appreciate the encouragement. Suddenly, he’s framing those changes as misunderstandings. Either way, it’s good to get sorted out and not be in a situation for it to happen again.

@7W5
More chaos?! Part of me wants throw a fit. The other part asks, “What else is new?” Five and a half years of rebound also spurs mixed reactions: never and I’ll be damn old. I haven’t been on a date since I was 20!

[UrbanHomesteader]

I'm sorry to hear about the health stuff. You've got a lot going on right now for sure.

It sounds like your spouse is currently being fairly cooperative about the divorce and willing to move out. If you were to ask for my advice, I would say to keep moving through the divorce proceedings as swiftly as possible. I expect the healing path to be clearer once that's done.

[7Wannabe5]

I’ll be damn old. I haven’t been on a date since I was 20!

Well, I keep telling myself that 60 is the new 40, and in many ways this is true. The dating world is very different than it was in the late 80s, and it keeps changing, largely in alignment with changes in communication technology and culture. OTOH, once people over 60 become not-so-early-retired, the clumped-availability of a large group of in-person peers can veer the vibe back a bit towards what it was like in our youth. I am currently camped out in my mother's 55+ community (median age a good deal older than 55) and there seem to be a good number of "warm friendships" on the "campus." The funniest thing is that the community used to be the city's high school and smoking is banned within a circumference of the buildings, so some of the old guys hang out with their cigarettes and marijuana in a corner of the parking lot next to the dumpster. Since, I am old enough to be residing here and I appear to be retired, I find myself struggling a bit to remain polite enough to not signal, "But, I am not yet really one of you!" when other residents introduce themselves in the laundry room or the weekly near-expired-groceries giveaway line. I've also noticed that although I don't usually go for younger men, it becomes increasingly more difficult to discriminate within the range of "old enough to be a grandfather." At 20 almost everybody is still an amorphous blob of inexperience and potential, not so much by the time you are easing up on 50 or 80.

[Laura Ingalls]

@7w5 funny about the smoking corner. I have noticed in my own mother’s peer group people often end up with a “special friend” this can be romantic or just a solid friendship. I know one case that it was romantic for the man and just a friendship for the female half. It was kinda funny.

@Frita
You are doing great at navigating a complicated situation. Hopefully your health stuff doesn’t make it harder.

I would be relieved that my offspring came to the conclusion to find a different living situation on his own. I suspect he will be a healthier adult as a result even if he doesn’t enjoy or like all of the process.

[Violets]

This is a little alarmist, but please take extra precautions to be safe. A couple of other people seem to have mentioned this, and I support it. My oldest sister's husband was controlling but never exceptionally abusive while they were married but when she went through with leaving him, he put my father in a coma for refusing the husband access to his wife and then put my sister in a coma. Abusive people can turn very dangerous very quickly. Please be careful.

[Henry]

he put my father in a coma for refusing the husband access to his wife and then put my sister in a coma.

WTF? Is this fucking guy like a serial comatoser? If that's even a fucking word. What the fuck is wrong with people. I was reading the story about the Australian Zoologist Adam Britton. Guy looks like Dana Carvey but is out doing things I won't even write about. Let's just say protect your dogs if you have any.

[Frita]

I'm sorry to hear about the health stuff. You've got a lot going on right now for sure.

It sounds like your spouse is currently being fairly cooperative about the divorce and willing to move out. If you were to ask for my advice, I would say to keep moving through the divorce proceedings as swiftly as possible. I expect the healing path to be clearer once that's done.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

My spouse’s superpower is being a nice guy. That is an act. Saying and doing are two different things. When I reflect back, when I act impulsively based on his encouragement, I get burned.

The dating world is very different than it was in the late 80s, and it keeps changing, largely in alignment with changes in communication technology and culture. OTOH, once people over 60 become not-so-early-retired, the clumped-availability of a large group of in-person peers can veer the vibe back a bit towards what it was like in our youth.

Strength in your current living situation, I appreciate the glimpse into that 55+ community world and your field notes. Ugh, I don’t care to relive my youth in any future dating. I will avoid these age-segregated communities. (More on that later…)

You are doing great at navigating a complicated situation. Hopefully your health stuff doesn’t make it harder.

I would be relieved that my offspring came to the conclusion to find a different living situation on his own. I suspect he will be a healthier adult as a result even if he doesn’t enjoy or like all of the process.

Thanks, I am reminding myself this is sometimes hard because it is. The not choosing to suffer is my challenge.

We are basically back to where we were before with housing. Yes, I hope my son can have a healthier relationship with a significant other.

This is a little alarmist, but please take extra precautions to be safe. A couple of other people seem to have mentioned this, and I support it. My oldest sister's husband was controlling but never exceptionally abusive while they were married but when she went through with leaving him, he put my father in a coma for refusing the husband access to his wife and then put my sister in a coma. Abusive people can turn very dangerous very quickly. Please be careful.

Thank you, this is the stuff that is on my mind and on my lawyer’s. The “just leave and be done” camp seems pretty straightforward until one is in it. I think events like you describe are why women are advised to disappear and cut mutual contacts, for everyone’s safety.

Like my lawyer said, just one major boundary violation like strangulation indicates not quite seeing me as human, like I am more of a possession. He has no empathy for me, then or now. Leaving/divorcing will challenge his power big time.

WTF?

WTF is right.

This week it seems I drove into a concrete wall, survived, and am now recovering/regrouping.
• PAID WORK This is just a distraction, unnecessary, and a waste of time. I have been listening to this podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/t ... 1646723683 as detox validation. While I truly felt a calling for education, for what it could be, it’s a bad fit for me. Burn this box!
• MARRIAGE I have revamped my ideas on marriage in that I question its benefit to many women/me. Present day Frita would not be getting married without firmly establishing her own identity and vetting said partner. This unskillful sequence, more than marriage, is the box. Being married has become part of my identity. Due to the power and control dynamics of abuse, other parts of my identity have been exterminated/lost.
• DIVORCE Coming out of a bit of a shame attack…I went to my appointment with my lawyer. She told me that I am not ready for divorce and that neither is my spouse. I need to figure out what the reasons for staying are and process that to resolution, not just intellectually decide. And then, if I decide to divorce, have a well-thought out plan on my end. Given the situation, leaving and divorcing could make my spouse worse. She said that this would help avoid problems on the long run. I believe her.
• SPOUSE I shared the news with my spouse. I told him if he wants to divorce quickly, he can certainly file (He’s been threatening since days into our marriage.) and move out. Otherwise, I expect him to go back to his doctor and be honest about his background situation plus go to counseling. (He wants me to come to the doctor appointment next week for accountability regarding his symptoms of anxiety and depression. I told him he would have to draft his talking points after he told me I could handle the conversation. No, I am not his other or case manager. He also has an initial appointment for counseling. He continues living in the basement, business as usual.
• SON I think my son is pissed about all this. He has been edgy but not wanting to discuss it. And rightly so. We, mostly me as I have more time, have been looking for places to move. They seem to be snapped up immediately as there is a housing shortage.
• SELF-CARE
Sleep: Average this week 8 hours 57 minutes (previous week 7 hours 45 minutes) Sleeping is becoming a coping mechanism. I am not feeling rested.
Exercise: Steps this last week 117,222 (previous 82,460), no stretching/yoga/weights/biking
Food: unsure what/how to track I am eating more vegetables, still not my typical. I am eating more processed food/sugar/coffee . I am emotionally eating (2 days with an incident this past week versus 3 times last week)
Hydration: Getting at least 68 ounces (down from 90 ounces which I consider optimal) 3 days this past week, 1 day previous week
Health: I went in for some bloodwork yesterday.
Social: not sure how to measure this one I continue to do the same group activities I did before an an individual. I am being more honest about my situation with the friendliest of friendly acquaintances.
DECLUTTERING: No direct progress on this. I am currently working on a pantry/freezer cleanout this month. (While I was gone, the rotation system went out the window.) I am using up rather than buying. For example, using the buckwheat flour instead of buying wheat, using barley and quinoa instead of buying brown rice, etc.

[Henry]

• DIVORCE Coming out of a bit of a shame attack…I went to my appointment with my lawyer. She told me that I am not ready for divorce and that neither is my spouse.

I'm lost.

[Laura Ingalls]

I'm lost.

Not ready as in not ready to make big decisions about things that happened when get divorced or not ready to get divorced? I would ask for clarification and think about different counsel

[Henry]

"I'm sorry Frita, I don't see any ligature marks and your husband seems like such a swell guy."

[theanimal]

I think you need to see a different lawyer. It's sadly hilarious that your lawyer thinks you aren't ready. "Oh no, not yet Frita. You need to subject yourself to more opportunities for physical and emotional abuse from your husband (who already lives separately than you)." What a load of BS.

Your husband has shown no signs of wanting to improve despite your consistent good faith efforts. The relationship is already over, divorcing just formalizes that. Getting out of this extremely toxic situation asap is the best thing you can do for yourself long term.

Stay strong. We're all rooting for you.

[Henry]

Too bad there's no attorneys on the board.

[Ego]

Back when it was slowly dawning on us that we may be unable to have children, Mrs. Ego read a magazine article quoting an expert who claimed an astronomical divorce rate among infertile couples. We decided that the only option for us was to embrace the fact that while some doors had closed in our faces, others opened wide.

A few years later, a couple of close friends who were going through the same thing asked our advice. We tried to explain what worked for us, but we knew even then that our roadmap would probably not be useful to them because every relationship is different. Some are extremely different. They were starting from very different places than us and would have to travel different roads to get to where we were.

For most of us, losing a child is unimaginable. Fighting to hold together a relationship after the loss of a child is unimaginable. Surviving spousal abuse is unimaginable. We can all learn from the strength you are exhibiting as you navigate these unimaginable challenges.

I cannot begin to give you advice on the road ahead, but I wish you continued strength as you navigate your future.

[UrbanHomesteader]

I'm just catching up on the last few posts in your Journal, Frita, and I feel like I have a bit of adrenaline/fight response happening in my body on your behalf. I think this biological response is the reason why so many conversations amongst friends include the phrase "You want me to beat him up for you?". My body is saying, this isn't safe, I'm ready to fight if it comes to that.

Reading your journal, I'm hearing that you don't feel safe in your domestic situation (understandably). Some days you're ready to flee, like when you went on your sailing adventure and some days your ready to freeze (sleeping a bit more, hitting the wall, etc.). Would you say that on the day you saw the lawyer you had any feeling of fight response?

I'm wondering whether the fight response can be consciously adopted. I'm not a professional here (I studied Anthropology in college so my judgement may be questionable, haha!). But I do think we humans can ease ourselves into different states of mind, like going to a self-defense class and going through the motions of fighting back can actually put someone in a state of being ready to fight. I wonder what that would be like for you.

The song that comes to mind is Christina Aguilera "Fighter", listened to while doing physical activity of any kind.

On the topic of self-defense, have you considered taking a class? I for one am not morally opposed to being armed, but of course get the training you need to be confident.

I know I'm at risk of sounding like a total ass-hat here, so I'm offering a blanket apology if that's the case. I'm just getting that adrenaline rush of being ready to fight on your behalf. It's reminding of me of when my older brother got made fun of in the school-yard when we were in elementary school, and I was obviously ready to fight the bully. My brother asked me not to ever do that again, saying it didn't help to have his little sister defending him...

I think I'll have to go for a run to let some of this fight energy leave my body. I'm sending that energy your way, in the most "woo-woo" way imaginable!

[7Wannabe5]

+1 @UrbanHomesteader

This is also in alignment with what David Deida wrote about the feminine energy opening and closing like an oyster in the presence or absence of love. It has been my own experience as a female eNTP that the combination of preferring to be within feminine energy in relationship and the temperamental inclination towards being very persistent at puzzle-solving will often result in finding yourself "stuck" in dysfunctional relationship. IOW, the unfortunate truth is that it is likely that your primary Ne function finds your husband's azzholery "interesting" on some level and your tertiary Fe is pretty much a less than useless blob of something like warm jello.

An ENTP in fine functional mettle is like a firm bouncy ball of silly putty. In order to get back to that consistency, you will first have to maximize the functioning of your most adult-masculine-killer/fighter-like energy at your seconday Ti. IOW, you need to allow yourself to become very cold and rational in your functioning, like you are a snowy owl high up in a winter landscape tree holding a distant perspective on your relationship down below. Meanwhile, the mantra for your simple-soul tertiary Fe is "No responsibility without authority" (do not share this mantra with other types such as INTJ, because towards bias confirmation for them.) Your primary Ne is much more clever, so simple mantra won't serve. In general terms, you have to render your relationship into a boring because solved problem for your monkey-like Ne AND/OR lose respect for your husband to the extent that he isn't even a worthy opponent anymore. For example, one odd particular way in which I often realize that I am actually "done-done" with a relationship is that I spontaneously visualize a better-than-me partner for my soon-to-be-ex; I imagined passing my first husband off to "girl who smokes clove cigarettes."

In general, the way to modulate "respect" (very strictly defined) is to pay attention to your very simple Pavlovian responses within relationship. The totally f*cked up thing is that the fact that he has exhibited violent behavior will make this more difficult. IOW, although your higher moral judging self is almost certainly "respecting" him less for exhibiting violent behavior, your ancient-bump-of-neurons on top of spine self will likely be reflexively "respecting" him more due to his violent behavior. IOW, in these circumstances a "moat" of seperation may be necessary for psychological as well as practical reasons, and this may also require that you raise your respect for your son up to the level of viewing him as an adult with the freedom to make his own decisions regarding moat crossings.

[Frita]

I'm lost.

My thought was “Who has a lawyer tell them to slow down before rushing into a divorce? Something must be wrong with me.” After thinking about this more, taking some time actually makes sense. Statistically speaking, my spouse is more likely to be more angry during and post-divorce so I need to be prepared for that. If he could get improve his mental health, that could help. Front loading these things is to ultimately save time and smooth out the process.

I would ask for clarification and think about different counsel

I will reframe that as a question. Yes, I considered someone else who is less cognitively flexible and would push on immediately. Ultimately, I want the person who could get tough in court and who prompts my spouse to think twice about his shenanigans. As someone who has been manipulated and controlled, I need some personal agency.

"I'm sorry Frita, I don't see any ligature marks and your husband seems like such a swell guy."

Nope, her take was more, “This is serious. You need to leave but be smart about it.”

Your husband has shown no signs of wanting to improve despite your consistent good faith efforts. The relationship is already over, divorcing just formalizes that. Getting out of this extremely toxic situation asap is the best thing you can do for yourself long term.

This is very true. I want to move on safely, not do it in a throw-gasoline-on-a-fire manner. A wind could pick up and blow that gasoline on me.