mountainFrugal Journal

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7Wannabe5
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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

mF wrote:If I understand what you are saying then a person who developed to a higher level in one situation could regress in another situation.
I believe this is true-ish, but it's not what I meant. What I meant is more like the below combined with a mild critique of the time-stamping tendency of the pragmatism ("Pragmatism is a philosophical tradition that – very broadly – understands knowing the world as inseparable from agency within it.") at Level Yellow.
Wilber-Combs Lattice
The general idea (arrived at independently by Ken Wilber and Allan Combs) that a
person at virtually any stage of awareness can experience any major state, but will
interpret those state-experiences according to their respective stage. The result is a grid of
developmental stages intersecting with and interpreting various states.
https://iniciativaintegral.es/Documento ... -27-07.pdf

So, for example, the needs to be met in hierarchy in Maslow's pyramid can readily be associated with "states", but it is known that our interpretation of these states and also our values will change as we achieve different stages of awareness.

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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

Post by mountainFrugal »

I think that I understand now. State interpreted for a given stage.

If we bring it back to a very tidy The Listening Society integration...

Interpretation is going to vary based on our effective value meme which is the combination of*:
1) MHC level of cognitive complexity
2) "code" or symbolic stage of development
3) subjective state experience level (higher levels approximating spirituality, lower levels equating to hell and torture)
4) depth of exploring/existing at each level and integrating them into our moment to moment experience - more depth is more readily accessible for each state.

* this is literally me copying from the book so it is not deep understanding of how all pieces fit together, although the way things are described track very well with personal experience across these axes of variation.

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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

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I'm about due for a re-read of "The Listening Society" myself, but based on some of my other reading I might add Type/Temperament, Core Gender Preference, and Soul(in contrast to Spirit) to that list. One note that Daniel Schmachtenberger repeatedly made in one of his recent interviews with Nate Hagens was that he wouldn't trust anybody with a high abstract cognitive level to apply a complex predictive utility function absent a well developed, expansive capacity for compassion. My path through the Green/Post-Modern likely commenced with reading Vonnegut around age 13/14*, so both Schmachtenberger and Hagens bring a bit more "sincere" to their "sincere-irony" than I can muster, but I agree that although the pragmatism of Level Yellow forms an appropriate response to the ineffectiveness of Level Green, this does not recommend a masculine-energy-biased short-cut/bypass from Optimization to Systems-Pragmatism.

*In many accounts of become-green/activist-yellow/strategist-integral-thinker young American men I have read (Greenfield, Merkel, Kowalski), they are still engaged at Level Orange Careerism well into their 20s, when they suddenly come to a realization/existential-crisis that it sucks/doesn't serve and then they decide to make some, often radical, changes. Lately, I've been doing a bit of soul/shadow work attempting to answer the question of why/whether I "skipped" Level Orange, and one of the answers I came up with was that I was already reading/appreciating post-modern novelists such as Vonnegut just past the cusp of childhood. So, I barely remember not experiencing Modernity(Win/Lose->Success) as a farce/cave/mass-delusion. OTOH, one of my less flattering answers was that because I am female and I have largely resided in the Midwest, I felt more free to choose either "Fake Blue" or "Fake Orange" , and I've been engaged in this "fakery"** for so long I've lost track of it. However, I can perceive that for a young man who actually grew up in the "water" of a primarily Level Green enclave, there might be something "Fight Club" ish in the experience of pulling aspects of Level Orange up to Level Yellow. OTOOH, also less flattering, according to my recently released Genetic Traits Analysis (hot mix of solid science and dubius survey-taking), I have nearly maximum genetic tendency*** towards being competitive oddly combined with near minimum tendency towards being ambitious or a leader. This might be somewhat in alignment with the Intergifted note on Intensity and Drive if combined with something like Endurance. It also seems to me like a hierarchal structure is more in alignment with ambition vs. competition, because the levels offer somewhere to rest/consolidate.

**IOW, I've spent so many decades as non/post-careerist coming up with somewhat deceptive "acceptable" answers to the question "What do you do?" that it seems like it has warped my social-identity. I would say that this even extends somewhat to this forum since I've never really paid more than lip-service to the notion/requirements of achieving standard FIRE and/or practice of frugality inclusive of developing an earning->saving maximization mechanism in addition to my well-established spending-tracking-minimization mechanism. The funny thing is that I can't determine if this makes me more or less pragmatic/realist than an over-saver. When I was 13, my parents (well-educated, city-reared Moderns with just a scooch of Traditional) required that I attend/pass my confirmation class/ceremony at our Episcopal church in order to be granted permission to no longer attend church. Is FI the "confirmation class" that gets you a hall-pass out of attending to the value-structure of Modernity or is it coherent with the extent to which one is still "invested" in the Progress value-meme, like a Cultural Catholic hedging his bet by attending church on Christmas and Easter? Is there something about one's level or form of continued investment in Level Orange v-meme that may relate to the resurrection of gender dichotomy at Level Yellow?

***Also absolute maximum genetic tendency from both paternal and maternal line towards liking sweet tasting stuff, but that's veering a bit too off-topic for the purposes of this post ;)

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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

Post by jacob »

@mF/7wb5 -

Pretty much. IIRC, they didn't mention it, but you'd also have "stage interpreted for a given state" as in "more brilliant or complex ideas likely pop up when you're in an ebullient or inspired state than when in a depressed state".

Putting on the math glasses, let's speak in the code of mathematics.

Each individual is essentially a point in some kind of space with dimensions yet to be determined. Now lets invent some kind of "measuring stick" or test or way of consistently associating a point with a number or a color or certain turns of phrases or blood pressure or behavior or whatever. A good stick will split points into many but not too many groups. How many is that? Like 3-7ish :ugeek: Here, Hanzi uses the 4 sticks above. As 7wb5 suggests, there could also be other sticks like temperament, gender,...

Mathematically, each stick is a dimension with a measure. A good measure allows us to classify and classification allows us to abstract a coordinating principle. This group or interval is like that, that group or interval is like this, and so on. Whereas a bad measuring stick does not differentiate (all points measure the same).

Pomo, being mostly a philosophy of critique while not providing much in terms of usefulness on its own (shots fired!) also considers, nay insist on the boundary cases. A measure that is too fine wherein each point has its own category (unique snowflakes) or a measure that contains all points (unity) are not useful measures for the purpose of understanding complexity. (However, they're both good for being compassionate and inclusive. But that's another part of the human brain... I'll get to that.)

The beauty (and good) of abstraction is that it reveals another layer of reality. It is another way of seeing reality. We often have discussions on the forum about the value of "theory vs practice". Theory allows one to see more layers of reality. MHC essentially measures the layers upon layers (recursive applying this idea to itself) that someone will use to interpret reality.

If MHC relates to the frontal cortex stage ability to abstract (MHC = depth of recursion)---I'm using the triune brain model for simplicity (I'm philosophically an instrumentalist at heart, not a realist. As far as I'm concerned, the triune concept allows me to speak (use code) about it. I don't literally believe that the brain has three completely separate parts :-P )---then the limbic system relates to state. What's important here is that state runs on another kind of reasoning than logic. Various set-levels and transmission levels of of hormones and neurotransmitters motivate people (and animals, but not plants) to do things. If these are in stable balance, then the person (point) has low depth and feels that existence is somewhere around "meh, okay, inspired" (this describes me and the majority of people BTW). If they're volatile=high range, the person has high depth and feels an existence from "hell" to "heaven". We have a second measure and so a second axis in our point-space.

(Note that the abstraction process---which is somewhat different from Hegelian synthesis---requires gathering enough points for a pattern (measure) to be detectable. IOW, deeper and deeper levels of abstraction requires more and more points. The ERE WL table could not have been generated before talking to several hundred different people. As such, ERE WL1-5 are pretty solid. 6-7 are "good enough for government". 8-10 are a working hypothesis.)

Now before we go one adding all our favorite dimensions and measuring sticks, consider this! Many of them are correlated. If so, they can be reduced to each other. We don't need two measuring sticks if they measure the same thing. (This is why the world has gone metric :-P :mrgreen: ). For example, BIG5/OCEAN-anxiety measures the same thing as MBTI. It just uses different words. They're both a kind of factor-analysis (make up some reasonable dimensions and measure them) though. IOW, if I know your BIG5, I know your MBTI and vice versa, so I don't need both.

Before going further, I think "code" is tremendously important and useful($). Code is not just words and symbols but also how words and symbols are arranged and especially what kind of abstractions (relative to the previous stage) they're capable of expressing. George Orwell recognized early how important code is. One thing that bugs the hell out of me when it comes to practical postmodernism is the insistence on keeping everything short and conversational in order to be inclusive enough for everyone to "co-create" and feel like they're part of the solution. Fine! :evil: But this also means reducing the MHC to the lowest common denominator of the group. Is that sacrifice worth it for the sake of compassion?

($) This is also why one ought to pursue the renaissance ideal. It was all about expanding the potential code usage as a human being.

Code also explains why "being creative" is way easier when the code covers the water the fish swim in as opposed to when they're trying to swim outside of their code. It's a lot harder for fish to talk about or understand air than it is for cows who breathe air. OTOH, it's harder to cows to appreciate the ability to move up and down as well as back and forward and left and right than it is for fish; because cows don't fly. Note that humans have basically no words for Kegan6 or cross-paradigmatic concepts. We can only extrapolate that this might be there based on some principle. However, once the code is there, the zeitgeist will provide all kinds of "creative" innovations and Stigler's Law will dominate. Before that happens, genius is required.

Code is important because it makes it possible to translate. We can translate to another person but we can also translate back to ourselves. Many humans as well as a handful of parrots are capable of reflecting upon themselves even if some humans and most parrots are not. This reflecting is only(?) possible because of coding and it REQUIRES(?) coding in order to do so. It's hard to talk or think about something when we lack the figurative instruments to do so. That is, if we don't have the words or whatever to reveal the organizing principles, we have to intuit or make them up before we can proceed any further. (This is where and why exclusively practical people never move beyond their current way of seeing and interpreting the world beyond a given stage.)

This of course is but another abstraction: "instruments watching instruments" and so on, turtles all the way down. Then turtles in any conceivable dimensionality you might think of. Code (and the process of communicating in code) is important both for reflecting to other humans but also for self-reflecting to oneself.

Richer code -> richer life-experience. (This is why theory is important!)

If someone has a high state-range but a low MHC they won't be able to learn the code required to express it. It would be like trying count while only having a counting concept of 1,2,many (this is a real thing, there are a few remaining cultures like that!) or trying to describe the color of the wall while only knowing the 16 colors of Windows3.11 (also real, and somewhat more common). Or not being able to talk about feelings because one only knows so many words for the nuances of that. Or describing the feeling of unity in the language of quantum woo, lacking the MHC to understand actual quantum mechanics.

Indeed, they might surmise that state, whether subjective or intersubjective, is THE ONLY AND/OR MOST IMPORTANT VARIABLE. They'll write a paper analyzing the entire world from that one variable from the perspective of the "formal thinking"-MHC state. Hanzi points that out. So we get all these formal-thinking-stage theories that pretty much describe the same aspect of thought. (It took me a couple of years to realize that basically all these models reflect the same aspects of the universe). Each of those can be put in a table showing the overlaps. Wilber has the best maps of those maps.

OTOH, if someone has a high MHC but stable medium state (like me), they won't care much about state-range, because the measure all falls in the same grouping, so therefore it can't be important (for someone with that configuration). IOW, if everything feels more or less the same, then feelings can't be all that important as a differentiator---it's effectively a "rolled up dimension". Compassion, which is mostly an Fe response, falls on deaf ears: "I'm really sorry you're dying of thirst. Come join our community. We don't have any water, but we'll kiss you and hug you and love you and call you George". Green does that a lot! But [compassion and community] is not what everybody in the world needs. Only what some [desperately] need. And vice versa for those who talk about wonderful world of quantum entanglements yet can't tell the difference between the Schroedinger equation and their tax return.

So in conclusion, the keyword is not compassion but width, depth, and consideration.

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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

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Yes. Adding ever more frameworks to a model is not necessarily the best way. It will be much more likely that your model over-fits the data with more parameters and especially if those parameters are correlated with one another. The tradeoff between a model fitting my experience vs. your experience vs. generalized human experience. So we should be leery in including ever more parameters or axes of variation. This is also a common problem in statistics that is dealt with an entire subfield of model comparison that can range from ordinary least squares to hierarchical bayesian hyperparameter estimation. We can have another factor or an entire submodel that penalizes model complexity. In a nutshell we want the least complicated model (simplest) that can explain a majority of the variance the burden is always on the model creator to justify what to include. Simplest does not mean collapsing complexity down to lower MHC levels, just having a model that is weighted appropriately for each parameter and if the parameter does not "pull its weight" in explanation of the data it becomes a 0 and drops out of that given analysis. The model could also be tuned to include the potential for a given axes of variation, but drop out otherwise if it is unnecessary in that analysis. So there is bottom up hypothesis building, top down model building, and some sort of model selection that is trimming out unnecessary complexity given the data that we actually have.
An example of trimming of shared variance the parameters can explain (e.g. BIG5/MBTI). In this example, if we initially included both BIG5 and MBTI not knowing they were actually explaining nearly the exact same thing at the outset, one of the terms would drop to 0 in our eventual model comparison when fitting it to the data. However in this case we know in advance that BIG5/MBTI are explaining the same thing so we just include one in the bottom-up model creation. By having a shared language of bottom-up, top down, and some sort of model comparison/fitting equivalent we can actually work on a model together.

Add: this was an example (not completed) of a fruitful collaboration knowing the terms: viewtopic.php?t=12688

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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote:How many is that? Like 3-7ish
5 ticks over 15 sticks and you have more than enough unique cubbies for the current human population of the planet!
Pomo, being mostly a philosophy of critique while not providing much in terms of usefulness on its own
In the spiral dynamics model, every other stage is associated with either feminine or masculine energy. Therefore, any given stage found in complete isolation would be both unlikely and non-generative. So, one argument for the "usefulness" of Level Green would be that the true choice for Henry Higgins is limited to Level Blue/Level Orange vs Level Orange/Level Green. Another perspective would be that according to Level Turquoise guru David Deida, "useful" itself is a quality or value associated with the masculine energy. so it is not relevant to Level Green. This could also, perhaps, be seen as somewhat akin to a toggling of Survival Selection/Sexual Selection mechanisms.
Many of them are correlated. If so, they can be reduced to each other.
Here's a suggested correlation/application between the Enneagram (so, towards MBTI/BIG5) and postmodern theorist Pierre Bourdieu's concept of the social field.

https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinfo ... erid=79023
Compassion, which is mostly an Fe response, falls on deaf ears: "I'm really sorry you're dying of thirst. Come join our community. We don't have any water, but we'll kiss you and hug you and love you and call you George". Green does that a lot!
That doesn't really sound like something Kurt Vonnegut or Pierre Bourdieu would say. Portraying Level Green at its silliest is as much of a strawman as a depiction of Level Orange as a Ted Talk by Charles Murray at Glengarry Glen Ross. That said, I'm also a human who sometimes feels compelled to socially signal 'fake green", so the ideal of the extension of "compassion" to the badger in the photo Hagens and Schmachtenberger were considering was a bit of a stretch for me too (ha!) However, a concern with factory farming does obviously scan with "Slaughterhouse Five" and if we split the difference between "compassion" and "consideration", maybe we get something like...
Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
― Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2024 12:23 pm
That doesn't really sound like something Kurt Vonnegut or Pierre Bourdieu would say.
Perhaps not, but it IS something that the yoga bourgeoisie says a lot if not explicitly. Using the gender-lens, it's the "nail in the head"-response that is directed at feeling sympathy instead of removing the nail. I prefer to apply vMemes to the "typical representative" rather than authors or literary figures and while "giving hugs to someone dying of thirst" is a strawman, it's not that far of the mark when encountering Green in the wild. Green will absolutely and unconditionally invite everyone into their circles and listen to their concerns [and lived experience] empathetically, but other than emotional support and [emotional] understanding, Green hasn't really offered much of anything to the world. The "empathy"-vMeme, as focused on the subjective experience as it is, simply hasn't demonstrated any ability to solve hard (=objective reality) problems.

Conversely, Blue, which is the previous collective or feminine vMeme gave the world organized force in the form of policing and militaries.

There are a few consequences to this. I'd like to distinguish between "juvenile (developing) Green" as seen in the US yoga bourgeoisie and "adult (developed) Green" as seen in the Nordic welfare states. I've interacted with both. The thing is that both actually rest on the privilege of having the more productive members of society graciously supporting them as they can't effectively support themselves. What does the middling struggling student do? They join a study group in the hopes that others will help them. What do above average students do? They eventually leave those study groups #braindrain This is a pattern---one that the yoga bourgeoisie is actually well aware of. It is their greatest fear.

Green is working on this 'unspoken contract' that one is morally compelled to support others (Fe) at the expense of oneself (Fi). Basically Green's operative foundation is the willingness to sacrifice one's ego to the group (<- this is why I don't get along with Green very well). Green's fundamental problem, though, is that it has enough concern that it doesn't want to force anyone to sacrifice their ego. No, people have to do it willingly. Yet some don't want to do that: In the welfare state, people FIRE if the collective's demand on them becomes too strong. Green essentially has zero moral standing within its own framework to force people back to work because it knows that a lot of the group or collective actually does not work. In the study-groups, the smart people eventually leave insofar their practical role is reduced to being an informal TA to everybody else. Again, no moral standing to force the studious people to stay because the dark secret is that the study groups contain too many people who don't bother to do their homework. In the yoga circles, the belief is that the solution to e.g. "food storage" (and any other problem) is to "form community" with the unspoken assumption that someone else will have the foresight to actually store the food; that sharing is a weird positive-sum game that creates more resources in total even if it in reality only brings more resources to those who contribute less than average. This is basically the study-group problem writ large. Green is hoping that "getting together" will somehow magically substitute for anyone doing the work. Green tends to be rather oblivious that it only exists on the indulgence of Orange spending its surplus production ... but that only goes so far---once Orange sees a way out, it leaves ... just like Orange left Blue.

Conversely, Orange is resting on a foundation of "organized force" that Blue provides. If you look at those neckbearded libertarian arguments, they only really want the government to enforce and protect contracts. They take this [security] for granted for their philosophy. Blue, however, is okay with [providing security] because Orange offers for lack of a better word, stuff, in larger quantities and qualities than Blue could ever provide on their own. What does Green offer Orange other than "social critique" and "unproductive or discretionary/recreational conversation"? I'm talking about the ordinary on-the-ground Green ... not a few philosophers... I'm talking about the "failure-mode" of Green as expressed by someone with an MHC around concrete/abstract/formal? (FWIW, I do have some answers, but they're only seen in "adult Green"). Basically, it's company on the presumption that someone else is charitable enough to "pick up the check".

This is where Green really needs to come up with something that renders it indispensable (like Blue did by organizing force). So far it hasn't really ... and perhaps this is because Green is still in the "anti-thesis"-stage of its evolution.

Add: Okay, I was being mysterious about what I think "adult Green" has come up with. A good example would be public health and infection control. This is basically where people have enough concern for humans other than themselves and their family that they would alter their behavior, for example by wearing a mask or not bringing their flu to the office.

Add2: Ultimately though, what I think Green needs to figure out is that ... Green is essentially postmodernism which again requires MHC12(systems) to comprehend. However, since only 20% of adult humans are capable of appreciating systems-thinking (given lots of scaffolding), when Green and pomo ideas are found in the wild, it's typically in their dumbed down versions. Examples would be "inclusiveness for the sake of inclusiveness w/o considering adverse side-effects" (a consequence of formal thinking concentrating on the wrong variable); "elevating 'lived experience' to an authority (a consequence of concrete thinking); or "asking critical questions w/o bothering to learn the fundamentals of what one is critiquing" (a consequence of abstract thinking) arguing that truth is co-created through a dialectic (intersubjective) process---a very convenient excuse for not having done the assigned reading :-P

Add3: Green essentially did form the internet. Not Web1.0 which was very much a modern/proto-postmodern idea but Web2.0 that is the shit show that is social media. However, not everything is bad about social media. It has made for the connection between ideas and people that wasn't possible before. However, web2.0 being a complex adaptive system is pretty much screaming for some kind of immune-system equivalent to attenuate all the nonsense/bad ideas that remain free floating. The modern (formal) minds of Silicon Valley have proven unable to grasp this.

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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

Post by mountainFrugal »

jacob wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2024 8:35 am
The "empathy"-vMeme simply hasn't demonstrated any ability to solve hard (=objective reality) problems.
...
Conversely, Blue, which is the previous collective or feminine vMeme gave the world organized force in the form of policing and militaries.

There are a few consequences to this. I'd like to distinguish between "juvenile (developing) Green" as seen in the US yoga bourgeoisie and "adult (developed) Green" as seen in the Nordic welfare states.

...This is a pattern---one that the yoga bourgeoisie is actually well aware of. It is their greatest fear.

(FWIW, I do have some answers, but they're only seen in "adult Green"). Basically, it's company on the presumption that someone else is charitable enough to "pick up the check".

This is where Green really needs to come up with something that renders it indispensable (like Blue did by organizing force). So far it hasn't really ... and perhaps this is because Green is still in the "anti-thesis"-stage of its evolution.
Hanzi has a section on the listen to your problems, but change nothing about my life or do anything to address them directly or politically (for those following along the thread, but are maybe not yet convinced to read the book).

We live in a geographic area where there are a few pathological versions of the yoga bourgeoisie that are legitimate cults (give your life savings to join). This is one potential solution for people leaving. They basically create a "spiritual pyramid scheme". Another large fraction of this pathological yoga bourgeoisie are trustafarians and other come from wealth and privilege spiritual seekers that come here for expensive retreats, tell the locals how they must be so lucky to live in such a spiritual place, and then are complete fucking assholes to the staff at the tiny independently owned natural food store. The employees of the store are specifically coached in how do deal with this demographic that comes during fair weather in the summer/early fall. A recent story (witnessed by DW) was a women that had a large sandwich and then asked the clerk if she could have it without paying for it. The checkout clerk said no she had to pay like everyone else. She proceeded to have a complete meltdown and yelled at the clerk for being a "rat bastard" that was working for the man and all manor of socially venomous phrases until she was asked to leave. This type of interaction happens regularly so I include it.

I would be very curious for a green adult answer even if it does not help out childish green.

*corrected two details of the story above after double checking with DW. A similar incident happened with my business partner's girlfriend who worked there and it involved an entire basket of groceries. I mixed up the details of the stories. However, asking for free stuff, freaking out when being told no and then verbally abusing the staff in both instances.

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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote:Conversely, Blue, which is the previous collective or feminine vMeme gave the world organized force in the form of policing and militaries.
Is this something Blue actually gave to the world or is this just the form in which Level Red became minimalized, subdued, and confined at Level Blue? For example, even as late in the transition as the late 19th century NYC police force reformed by Commissioner Teddy Roosevelt, people were often very hard pressed to distinguish between the police and the hooligans. (Note also that zero of the nine nations that currently possess nuclear weapons are "mature green." Ergo, NATO might be considered to be a Level Green construction which further marginalizes Level Red.) Did Level Blue initially seem "useful" to the warriors at Level Red?

Similarly, the more "feminine" in the sense of "life generative" majority occupation of farmer/serf at Level Blue was marginalized at Level Orange. It likely seemed difficult to imagine how "helpless" oaf farmers could possibly marginalize "powerful" warriors in the same way that it now seems difficult to imagine how yoga bourgeoisie could possibly marginalize "productive" corporate salarymen. Or one could imagine a Level Blue farmer thinking that there will be only a strictly limited number of Level Orange tool-makers necessary in society to support his obviously essential function. I don't think that Level Yellow could readily be described as "productive" either. Maybe "power" rolls into "productivity" rolls into "???" , the unknown that already exists in the "hippies, hackers, and hipsters" of Level Green while Level Yellow is still just a small self-referential perspective imagining itself into being.

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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2024 8:24 pm
Is this something Blue actually gave to the world or is this just the form in which Level Red became minimalized, subdued, and confined at Level Blue?
Isn't that the same thing/different words? Blue imposed order on the unruly "Nobody tells me what to do. I do what I want"-sentiments of Red. This was possible by using organized force---organized force being superior to the unorganized force of Red. Six organized cops control one criminal and lock them up in prison. Prior to this, law and order was in the form of revenge killing or retribution. Ancient books have entire price lists of how much retribution was deemed reasonable. An eye for an eye and all that.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2024 8:24 pm
Did Level Blue initially seem "useful" to the warriors at Level Red?
Yes, Blue gave the warriors "first generation warfare". Warfare changed from mass assault with two groups charging each other across an open field and engaging in single combat (read e.g. Homer's Illiad) to organized formations like phalanxes or the testudo (the Roman shield turtle) which beat the crap out of the previous "every hero for himself" approach. At this point, the heroes of Red could either adapt or keep losing.

Similarly, Orange unlocked second and third generation warfare using STEM to radically increase killing power (guns) and mobility (engines). Same effects. Change or die.

Pomo unlocks 4th and 5th generation (decentralized/informational/asymmetric/propaganda) but it's not really clear if that's a winning strategy. Rather it seems to turn war into a lose-lose proposition for both the invader and the invadee. Perhaps it's just that the "third generation" (modernist) politicians and people just haven't accepted this yet. One might also say that lose-lose means that people stop warring. Most of the European countries have enjoyed nearly 100 years of prosperity (relative to other regions of the world) and tops the human development scales due to not engaging in wars with each other all the time anymore---something that previously happened every generation or so.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2024 8:24 pm
Similarly, the more "feminine" in the sense of "life generative" majority occupation of farmer/serf at Level Blue was marginalized at Level Orange. It likely seemed difficult to imagine how "helpless" oaf farmers could possibly marginalize "powerful" warriors in the same way that it now seems difficult to imagine how yoga bourgeoisie could possibly marginalize "productive" corporate salarymen.
Recruit a peasant farmer and give him a crossbow. Form those peasants into a regiment and tell them when and where to fire. Even a minimum of training makes them very dangerous to the trained warrior class. Ditto, take the younger farmer sons, who are not going to inherit the farm anyway, and press them into the navy. All they need to be told is which line or rope to pull and when. (That's why they're called hands or jacks. They don't need to think because the officers do all that.) You now have a navy of sailing ships with guns that can fight other ships instead of the Viking galley/triremes that were basically personel carriers. Blue now control the seas.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2024 8:24 pm
Or one could imagine a Level Blue farmer thinking that there will be only a strictly limited number of Level Orange tool-makers necessary in society to support his obviously essential function. I don't think that Level Yellow could readily be described as "productive" either. Maybe "power" rolls into "productivity" rolls into "???" , the unknown that already exists in the "hippies, hackers, and hipsters" of Level Green while Level Yellow is still just a small self-referential perspective imagining itself into being.
Each new stage figures out a way to coordinate the previous stages and this coordination makes it possible to do more. Whether it's projecting more power, producing more stuff, being more entertaining (Green?), ... Yellow manifests mainly on the internet. Consider the FIRE movement. It is 2-3million people strong and thus represents a combined "economy" of 2e6 people * 60kUSD/person/year = 120BUSD roughly the spending power of a small country or a rather large government program in a rather large country. There are no leaders of authority, only leaders of thought. People in the movement aren't ordered what to do. They're only given solutions that happen to promote Yellow values, but they take them because they're better than what Orange or Green offers. In terms of sustainable impact through reduced spending the FIRE movement controls a budget that is some 10x bigger than the EPA. That does give it a certain "power" even if it not directly wielded from top to bottom.

Other examples of Yellow would be how Elon Musk and the likes have single-handedly (with the help of several billion dollars spent) restarted the space race and the electric car industry. Both have some overaching planetary-level purpose and impact even if not everyone agrees with the direction he's taking it or with his tendency to beclown himself on social media.

There aren't many Yellow folks around (1-2%) but in terms of impact or influence this tiny group is punching much above their weight.

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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

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mountainFrugal wrote:I would be very curious for a green adult answer even if it does not help out childish green.
I would first like to note that the frequency with which I (an XNTP and thus socially aversive "young soul" whether in inferior or superior position) find myself arguing as apologist for Level Green on this forum is in itself indicative of the forum's lean towards Orange/Yellow rather than Green/Yellow. So, I have consulted/considered the perspective of my Type 9 (The Diplomat-the born mature type who takes issues related to both competency and social functioning equally seriously) leaning more towards Green/Yellow 30-something daughter in forming further responses. She is the sort of human who is actively engaged in discussions on the topic of "the problems of democracy" with other members of her Unitarian Universalist congregation and also the sort of human who because Dominant-when-superior-in-functioning is mildly frustrated when the must-be-at-least-able-to-match-pitch rule of entry for her meant-to-be-highly-inclusive community choir is violated.
She proceeded to have a complete meltdown and yelled at the clerk for being a "rat bastard" that was working for the man and all manor of socially venomous phrases until she was asked to leave.
Mature Green/Yellow (as personified by my daughter) would not tolerate behavior of this sort, even in a setting where the concept of "private property" was up for debate/revision. The individual would be banned from entry to the store until proof of completion of anger management course was proffered. Alternatively, if I consider the sort of response that I might have made to my daughter when she was young and asked me for money for typical teen activities, if I was the clerk/shop-owner, I might say "You can't have that sandwich for free, but you can go pick one off the sandwich tree out back if you like." OTOH, if my daughter said, "I need $50 for transportation costs, because I've been selected as a representative for the International Teen Conflict Resolution Symposium." then I would simply write the check.
jacob wrote:There aren't many Yellow folks around (1-2%) but in terms of impact or influence this tiny group is punching much above their weight.
I don't disagree; I consider myself to be yellow-ish ( or maybe more like chartreuse/amber blinking) in functioning/perspective, although I do sometimes wonder if this is simply a side-effect of the practice of reading too much. However, to be fair, we can't hold up Elon or yourself as prototypical Yellow while imagining Green personified as Liberal University Town Pilates Mom. If FIRE is Yellow, then we must imagine its representative to be your typical Index Fund 4% er. It's actually quite easy for me to picture a couple composed of one spouse who is a more-core-masculine-energy Index Fund 4% er and one spouse who is a more-core-feminine-energy Liberal University Town Pilates Mom. Since, as usual, she's a bit younger and prettier than him, the power exchange would be stable. (One of the most amusing things I have read recently, was a piece by a Self-Described Integral Thinking man of my generation bemoaning the fact that while Level Green females want their male partners to exhibit all of the best qualities of all of the previous levels, even Level Yellow men still simply require that their female partners be "healthy." :roll: )
Each new stage figures out a way to coordinate the previous stages and this coordination makes it possible to do more.
Yes, but before you can "do" more with your masculine energy, you have to "be" more with your feminine energy and vice-versa. IOW, if you can see why the amusing note above by the Male Integral Thinker is half bullshit then you can also perceive the necessary function of Level Green. HINT: The need for police/military contract enforcement from Level Blue isn't the only Level Blue service the Libertarian Fringe of Orange blindly disregards.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

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Doesn't the distinction lie in the fact that FIRE is a yellow idea? Collectively the implementation of the idea by many individuals is an IRL manifestation of a yellow idea rather than everyone who does FIRE is operating at yellow? FIRE is an example of yellow values that have been scaffolded for others to follow. Breaking out of the mold with the FIRE scaffolding. There are more and more people who are doing this, but that does not necessarily translate to them thinking original "yellow thoughts" and exhibiting yellow behavior. This is why it is important to have a good failure mode or to have thought about failure modes in the design of the scaffolding. This is also why the WL5/WL6 transition is so hard. It is easy to copy a path until that path becomes unique to an individual.
---
WRT to masculine/feminine energies here is a section from The Metamodern View of Reality section of the book:
To be anti-essentialist, not believing in “ultimate essences” such as matter, consciousness, goodness, evil, masculinity, femininity or the like—but rather that all these things are contextual and interpretations made from relations and comparisons.
The burden of proof is always on the model builder to show how including additional parameters or axes of variation will improve the model (to quote myself from above):
The tradeoff between a model fitting my experience vs. your experience vs. generalized human experience. So we should be leery in including ever more parameters or axes of variation.
---
Skill-development is mentioned in passing in The Listening Society as important and I think that is where the collective discussion on the forum really adds to these ideas. If someone is pursuing skills in all the Renaissance categories (Economic, Physical, Emotional, Intellectual, Technical, Social, Ecological, [Spiritual, Artistic/Aesthetic]*) and integrating them together for a combination unique to the individual, then they will have thought in many different boxes. This is more or less Scott Young's 10 year Essential Education: https://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/2017/0 ... education/ if you wanted a specific non-forum example (note that he is professional learner not a lazy dabbler). Having done a Renaissance [self] education like this would set you up to have taken many different viewpoints and used many of the same basic mental models applied to different disciplines. I think the "yellow" part is coming up with novel connections between the fields that you studied, making new abstractions that represent them, and then using those abstractions in your life or to explain it to others.

*Later additions not included in ERE book

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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

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mF wrote:The burden of proof is always on the model builder to show how including additional parameters or axes of variation will improve the model (to quote myself from above):
I'm not sure I am following you. The warm colored stages representing more masculine energy and the cool colored stages representing more feminine energy is a given in the standard description of the Spiral Dynamics model. I agree that this is not meant to be applied/conceived with the essentialism of Level Blue. In fact, I find myself a bit more tending towards wanting to toss all of these models on the Crap out of California compost pile when I read books written by men my age, with Foreward by Ken Wilber, that do push the sexual dichotomy model more towards essentialism. In fact, I might argue that Wilber himself veers a bit towards sexual dichotomy essentialism in "Boomeritis", although I did not find that to be true in his "Sex, Ecology. Spirituality." My perspective is likely a bit warped by the fact that I first encountered the "pragmatism" of Level Yellow in the form of sexual dichotomy theory; IOW, how Level Yellow re-polarizes gender dynamics. Something can be towards the pragmatic and also half bull-shit. I feel the same way(s) about the not entirely unrelated field of Evolutionary Psychology, at least in its popularized form.

The point I was attempting to make is actually quite consistent with your note. Why should Level Green vary from every other level in the model in terms of its contribution to societal development? Just as with Yellow, as you explained, the complex ideas of Level Green/Post-modernity are not necessarily fully internalized by any human found wearing a Hug a Tree t-shirt. I suppose that one possible consistent-with-model answer/perspective could be that there is something more "incomplete" about Level Green because it is the last of Tier One. Dunno.
I think the "yellow" part is coming up with novel connections between the fields that you studied, making new abstractions that represent them, and then using those abstractions in your life or to explain it to others.
I agree. That's why since I tend to err on the side of "lazy dabbler", I would describe myself more as "blinking chartreuse/amber Dollar Tree party lights" in my thinking than Level Yellow. It could also be likely that I am having difficulty differentiating between the philosophy/practice of pragmatism as it was applied at the late 19th intersection of Blue/Orange/Green and a less "essentialist" form of pragmatism more relevant to Level Yellow. For example, late 19th century stodgy pragmatism could not imagine women successfully working outside of the home sphere, because this concept had never been demonstrated. It only existed in earliest form in the vision of the Progressive Idealism of Level Green. Maybe "stodgy" is less apt as an adjective applied to the variety of "pragmatism" revitalized at Level Yellow. Maybe Level Yellow encompasses both sincere-irony and nimble/lively-pragmatism. Dunno.

zbigi
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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

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7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2024 6:23 pm
For example, late 19th century stodgy pragmatism could not imagine women successfully working outside of the home sphere, because this concept had never been demonstrated. It only existed in earliest form in the vision of the Progressive Idealism of Level Green.
That might be true for early XIX century, but in late XIX century women working in factories (mostly related to textiles) were already common. Also, centuries before that, at least in Eastern and Central Europe, women from serf families commonly worked on fields of their masters. That was commonly the case until mid-XIX century, when serfdom was abolished in this part of Europe. Another example are servants, cooks, governess etc., many of whom were female.

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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

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@zbigi:

Yes, that's why I qualified with "successfully" by which I meant as opposed to "necessary evil." IOW, the normative feminine ideal of the late 19th century was still "able to stay home where she belongs and best flourishes because financially supported by man." Also, I was primarily thinking about a book written by the wife of philosopher of pragmatism Charles Pierce. She believed that women, both middle-class who could afford to stay home and working-class girls who had to seek factory work, were losing power or status relative to men as the Modern era developed, because men were better able to take advantage of efficiency and specialization of labor. Therefore, because it could be readily demonstrated that females are meant to stay home, the best solution to the problem would be for women to form groups in which they would be able to garner the advantage of more efficient, specialized, leveraged production within the home sphere of activities. For example, one middle-class woman could specialize in fine cooking, another could train her maid to specialize in laundry, etc. The more general point I was trying to convey about the downside of pragmatism is that even a plan that isn't reliant on "changing the world" may find its basis shift as the world goes ahead and changes.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

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Image


Level 8 Art
I finished up Introduction to Landscape Painting taught by my business partner. I am going off on my own to work on gouache landscapes to expand the classes/workshops we can offer.

I worked through two drawing books, Dynamic Drawing/Sketching by Peter Han and a generic book on watercolor/gouache on toned paper.

Darmera had our monthly live model session. I used alcohol based sketching markers. These are common in design drawing and can be easily layered. In the past I would use charcoal (classic), but I would rather use a media that I want to get better at and I do not use charcoal for anything else right now.

MechE
I learned a lot about working with metal materials this month in conjunction with a Silver Smith workshop we held at Darmera. The Smith is a modern day alchemist that turns pre-1982 pennies (95% copper) into $55-75 jewelry. He has been doing it since the 1970's and still sells pieces off the same blanket.

Various bicycle and parts sketches. I scanned my sketchbook of suspension notes to turn into a zine. All of these sketches will be combined into a few poster sized illustrations for the gallery show next month.

Finished sketchnoting a Bicycle Science chapter. I need to come up with a better study structure for this DIY degree.

Planet
The hut job fulfills many goals simultaneously. The illustration shows the overlap for this month.

DW joined me on a few dates up at the hut. We hiked around, ID'd plants, she wrote fiction, and I nature journaled as part of a date.

I participated in a City Council sponsored placed based activity. The younger artists/entrepreneurs in the community are showing up to everything and we are co-creating the future of the town together. As an example, there are five different groups/businesses collaborating to get more murals painted on city owned buildings. Some of us are also joining the chamber of commerce board or city council as fresh blood to further push the town as an artist community. It already is, but the crop of Z/millennial artists/entrepreneurs are bringing this forward as a town revitalization strategy. In many ways this is actually working on the nuts and bolts of what an ERE city could be working towards rather than just finding a co-location spot. Not that it has to be here because of wildfire risk, but come on by and check it out.


MBAs
A school group visited the hut while I was there. I had my nature journal examples that I shared with them. The teacher had a similar idea for the class. I got invited to give a talk at the middle school later this fall on nature journaling and the class offerings at Darmera if kids/parents are interested. Darmera had a patron donate enough for 4 youth students to take art classes with us for free (supplies included). I could offer the link to the application.

One of the chaperones for the student group owns a MTB shuttle company. I knew of him, but never met him. We talked about biking and I shared my business model of MTB rentals with him (I do not have time). He was planning on doing this next season, but was reluctant because he did not want to maintain the fleet. So we are hashing out further details for him to own the fleet and deal with the rentals and for me to wrench on them once a week as a contractor. Win/Win.

We were just offering small class sized painting classes, but expanded our offerings to a subscription model based on feedback. We had potential customers who were not committed enough to take a full specialized class, but want to occasionally make art with a glass of wine or a beer. So we made some cheaper class tiers and now have a Patron only tier. This was also requested by at least 5 people over the past few months who are not interested in learning to make art, but really like that we exist and want to support us.

Darmera did 1 new art opening and two artist talks. The artist talks are really fun and range from in-depth discussion on art philosophy to process. They are one of the cool things we can just do because they are interesting and we have the space for it. Good vibes.

SEQART
My time at the hut allowed me to write two short comics scripts for Festina lente. The characters are a hare and tortious (see discussion upthread).

Nature Journaling comics!


LBET
Various stats. I focused on harder, but shorter workouts this month with a lot of hill repeats going to a from the hut. I am finally back to approximately the base I had prior to doing weekend construction for 4.5 months straight.

At the hut I made a number of nature journal observations and comics. As an example, I would usually arrive at the hut before sunrise over the mountain between 6-7 am. Around 8 am the sun would crest a ridge and the insect and bird activity would immediately burst into action. However, there was a noticeable decrease to near 0 flying insect activity my last weekend up there. This was without a major decrease in temperature. Anyway, nature offers endless free observation and learning.

In August and September I spent each Sunday afternoon at Darmera working on additional nature journaling pages. This was often after spending the mornings at the hut. A structured way to think about it all. We started advertising Nature Journaling as a Sunday afternoon class and had some new students show up just for that. :)


ScienceWriting
2 comics scripts. 3 Blog posts.

I visited a local museum to check out a display on the history of the alpine hut and all the caretakers over the past 100 years. One of the caretakers made watercolor sketches of all the alpine flowers in the area. These are published as a local wildflower guide, but I had not made the connection that he was also a hut caretaker. This gave me the idea to research more about the caretaker histories and combine it with my sketches, climate change research, and snowpack data science project. This is not fully formed, but I will pursue more after the gallery show.

This lead me down the rabbit hole of qualitative research methods for analyzing journals and other subjective data gathering. There are established research methods in "autoethnography" for how to code this information to be used as qualitative research data. As an example, I already have many of my journals digitized and at least part of them are more written out rather than bullet pointed like I do in the updates here.

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thef0x
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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

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Your output is insane and I hope to get to your level one day. Your ability to have so many focuses remain focused is what strikes me the most; I can't seem to attend to more than one big thing at a time. You seem to be hitting PRs in many aspects of life on a regular basis. I know that's got to feel pretty amazing. Do you get tired? ;)

Building up your community actively seems like such a unique gift; I wonder if you chose where you are because you thought this would be viable? It's a way of thinking about where to land that I had not considered before but that currency is valuable. Appreciate the paradigm shift.

Awesome update.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

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Thank you @thef0x.

I get tired 1x every 24 hours and then sleep deeply. :). The Output is just expression. I do not give it much thought until the end of the month when I do my reviews and actually sketch/integrate everything. The focus should be on the personal system and environment design and the output will occur on its own.

As far as community building we knew that we wanted to be a part of a mountain community. But other than that we did not have really any ideas because we are both pretty introverted. However, with some coaching from @mooretree's I just started putting myself out there more and more. It is a skill just like anything else. Remaining curious and open minded about people is key. "Introverts make the best extroverts" is a phrase that seems relevant here. Most people want someone who listens. That is easy and default mode. Listen, remain present, ask questions. Find out what they care about. Then...hey I was thinking about XYZ idea (small chunk of a subgoal that I want to do long term, but that they might be interested in shorter term AND overlaps with what they care about). What do you think about that? Repeat. When I write it out it seems formulaic, but in practice it becomes easier and "natural".

Add: 7w5 literally just posted this in @AH journal and it is completely relevant to the above paragraph.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2024 5:31 pm
There's a theory* that whenever we meet somebody we tend to semi-consciously autopilot do three things very quickly in order to establish relationship:

1) Find any commonality.
2) Communicate our status/importance.
3) Communicate a vulnerability in a manner meant to provoke empathy.

And there can be layers upon layers of this sort of thing. It's entirely possible to be even more put off by the manner in which another human attempts (3) as the manner in which they attempt (2.)

*ETA: The philosopher Agnes Callard, "Aspiration", Ezra Klein Show, "Best Of: Status Games, Polyamory, and the Merits of Meritocracy."
Added citation after 7w5 update.
Last edited by mountainFrugal on Sat Oct 05, 2024 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

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Thanks for the update, and also on sharing earlier the time lapse of how you arrive at the graphics!

How to get the hare to mount the tortoise?
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Re: mountainFrugal Journal

Post by Western Red Cedar »

@thefox - I was just listening to a conversation among professional creatives - two who were fathers and one who was expecting. One of them said he felt guilty about not spending more time on his craft, particularly in light of the productivity of some of his close friends. He often wanted to spend time with his daughters and didn't have the focus he once had. His therapist told him to manage expectations, and to avoid comparing himself to colleagues who didn't have kids.

When you have to worry about things like chaining up your stove, among other things, I suspect it is hard to maintain the same level of output as someone like @mf ;) .
mountainFrugal wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2024 12:11 pm
I participated in a City Council sponsored placed based activity. The younger artists/entrepreneurs in the community are showing up to everything and we are co-creating the future of the town together. As an example, there are five different groups/businesses collaborating to get more murals painted on city owned buildings. Some of us are also joining the chamber of commerce board or city council as fresh blood to further push the town as an artist community. It already is, but the crop of Z/millennial artists/entrepreneurs are bringing this forward as a town revitalization strategy.
Lots of great stuff in the update, but I just wanted to highlight this and encourage you to keep pushing forward on that path. I worked with a number of small mountain towns and cities over the last decade. Those with young, engaged, bright individuals with positions on the local council or working for the municipal government had a huge advantage in terms of maintaining the livability of those places and ensuring they were competently managed.

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