Correct Time investment

[lillo9546]

it's easy to talk about how to invest money, and find ways to make profits.

but how to invest time?

I've always had this question to answer, even if a lifetime, I think, wouldn't be enough.

a) have a part-time job and do your hobbies the rest of the time?

b) have your own company, part-time, and do your hobbies the rest of the time? (assuming you can do it given the fact that you have to be available 24/7, or at least think about your job 24/7).

c) have a job or your company for 10 hours a day and live for your job?

d) you add

[rube]

An investmemt implies you expect something back. The question is, what do you expect back?
Money, pleasure, sociale interaction, achievements, others, all of them? And are these aligned with your values, what you want?

So choose what gives the best (expected) ROIT (Return On Invested Time) to what you want to have in return.

This will be different for everyone, there is no good or bad and black or white.

[lillo9546]

An investmemt implies you expect something back. The question is, what do you expect back?
Money, pleasure, sociale interaction, achievements, others, all of them? And are these aligned with your values, wjat you want?

So choose what gives the best (expected) ROIT (Return On Invested Time) to what you want to have in return.

This will be different for everyone, there is no good or bad and black or white.

This is the right track. This is why I crave to find a career that could possibly provide me with all the elements

I value:
a) Financial Stability: I want to make enough money to live comfortably and have extra to save or invest.
b) Social Interaction: I seek opportunities for social interaction that allow me to build relationships through repeated exposure and shared interests. I want to have a social circle and participate in others.
c) Personal Fulfillment: I want to feel proud of what I'm doing. Achievements are a plus, but I don't want to be overly invested in something that prevents me from sleeping or detaching my mind from work.

This is why, when I found a job with a condo management agency, it made me consider opening my own business. The fact is, this career does not align with some of my values, particularly point c). You cannot mentally detach from that job, and point b) is also a concern because, although there are many social interactions, they often involve arguing with people.

[jacob]

I value:
a) Financial Stability: I want to make enough money to live comfortably and have extra to save or invest.
b) Social Interaction: I seek opportunities for social interaction that allow me to build relationships through repeated exposure and shared interests. I want to have a social circle and participate in others.
c) Personal Fulfillment: I want to feel proud of what I'm doing. Achievements are a plus, but I don't want to be overly invested in something that prevents me from sleeping or detaching my mind from work.

A lifetime career in a generic 9-5 administrative type of job just might be the right thing for you. The pay is decent and regular. The work involves repeated exposure to clients and coworkers with a shared interest in spreadsheets while checking your own boxes and spreadsheets and calling other people to check their boxes and spreadsheets. You'll likely get to go to a few conferences and office outings with your coworkers too as part of an annual award ceremony. You get to be "part of a team that did something" and you can put that on your resume and feel some kind of achievement.

Being as what that is, you won't get overly committed to one particular kind of spreadsheets or company and as such you can easily find work with in other companies with other kinds spreadsheets while ultimately doing the same thing. You can sleep well at night with this kind of work because ultimately it doesn't really make much of a difference. It just kinda keeps the cogs greased and turning. The stakes and commitment are low. If you make a mistake, you can fix it tomorrow by calling someone you likely know and connecting with them. If you get fired or tired, you can easily find a similar job. This kind of work will give you something to do and something to get up to and something that pays the bills. The modern world is built around this wish list. Spreadsheets and watercooler talk.

Attaining financial freedom to set your own path and do do everything you want within reason is not for everybody. If you want someone else to provide that structure and a predictable path without needing or wanting to create your own, being an administrative assistant is not the worst solution.

[ertyu]

I had exactly the opposite reaction to Jacob. Whereas he was like, well this is basically any normie admin job, just get one, what's the problem, my first reaction to your list of a, b, and c was that you're unrealistically expecting too much from a job. It's almost like, you kind of know you're missing your list of abc in your life, and then you expect of your job to provide you with all of them on a platter instead of you exercising deliberate agency to get them. Imo, have a job that's alright in the sense that it gives some a. without too much pain and suffering, and then see about how you can meet b, c, and a on your own. This might be my approach bc I hated my job so much for so long that right now, all I want from a job is, "I can actually do this without the constant drive to run away screaming" lol.

[jacob]

@ertyu - Fulfillment comes down to individual expectations. For example, I could never simultaneously meet the expectation where I'm both proud of my work and at the same time detaching from it outside of 9-5. (If I can detach like that, then I likely don't really care about what I'm doing and so I don't find it meaningful and so I'm not proud of it.) However, for most, doing a good job, whatever it is, is enough to make them proud of a job well done.

Likewise with social interactions. Work is unlikely to provide any kind of deep or "ride and die" relations. However, it is going to provide a place where you go every day and people know your name and will exchange small-talk on a regular basis. I mean, certainly some part of the workforce spends a very good fraction of the workday just socializing. It's part of the reason why meetings with 10 minutes of content easily take an hour or two. For many this is a feature and not a bug. For me, it's way more socializing than I desire though and something I can easily do without. Again, different expectations.

On the engagement scale of work we can distinguish between work that is a calling or a developing career and work that's just a job---the whole detachment thing. Very many people aren't really interested in a career or don't have a calling to pursue to "make a difference". They just want a job with clear, low, and regular expectations and with little risk. It's basically what the public school system trains people for.

[Jin+Guice]

I think that "correct time investment" (for yourself) requires being able to author your own value system (for yourself). Otherwise you are investing your time based on someone else's desires or based on arbitrary aphorisms. I think most of us are taught, through fear, from a young age to distrust ourselves and trust external value generation systems.

[lillo9546]

I think most of us are taught, through fear, from a young age to distrust ourselves and trust external value generation systems.

True

A lifetime career in a generic 9-5 administrative type of job

This is not what I ask for, but I've learnt trought this job the bad and the good about it, and I can make my own business and be my own boss if that is the case, without doing the same errors i see my boss doing everyday, but that it's just his attitude and how he work.
I might do the same job, while doing thigns differently.

Given this, I am actually searching for a career.
I also like creativity, but I soon understood that, yes it may could be a good career if you want to just be happy and socialize, but this is not a career where you can make money and wealth, which is also another key element to keep count of.

For example, @Jacob how did you find out your career of choice?

[suomalainen]

[talking to his son about going to the army]

“After a while,” said Cyrus, “you’ll think no thought the others do not think. You’ll know no word the others can’t say. And you’ll do things because others do them. You’ll feel the danger in any difference whatever – a danger to the whole crowd of like-thinking, like-acting men.

“What if I don’t?” Adam demanded.

“Yes,” said Cyrus, “sometimes that happens. Once in a while there is a man who won’t do what is demanded of him, and do you know what happens? The whole machine devotes itself coldly to the destruction of his difference. They’ll beat your spirit and your nerves, your body and your mind, with iron rods until the dangerous difference goes out of you. And if you can’t finally give in, they’ll vomit you up and leave you stinking outside – neither part of themselves nor yet free. A thing so triumphantly illogical, so beautifully senseless as an army can’t allow a question to weaken it. Within itself, if you don’t hold it up to other things for comparison or derision, you’ll find slowly, surely a reason and a logic and a kind of dreadful beauty. A man who can accept it is not a worse man always, and sometimes is a much better man. Pay good heed to me for I have thought long and hard about it. Some men there are who go down to the dismal wrack of soldiering, surrender themselves, and become faceless. But they had not much face to start with. And maybe you’re like that. But there are others who go down, submerge in the common slough, and then rise more themselves than they were, because – because they have lost a littleness of vanity and have gained all the gold of the company and regiment. If you go down so low, you will be able to rise higher up than you can conceive, and you will know holy joy, a companionship almost like that of a heavenly company of angels. Then you will know the quality of men even if they are inarticulate. But until you have gone way down you can never know this.”

East of Eden, John Steinbeck

Go on. Join the Corporation. You'll love it.

[jacob]

For example, @Jacob how did you find out your career of choice?

By valuing the opposite of what you value.

a) I wanted the financial opportunity to do whatever I wanted whenever I wanted (within reason).
b) I wanted to be independent of other people's opinions or concern for status.
c) I only wanted to be invested in work that made a difference being willing to dedicate myself to the point where it prevented me from sleeping.

[lillo9546]

By valuing the opposite of what you value.

a) I wanted the financial opportunity to do whatever I wanted whenever I wanted (within reason).
b) I wanted to be independent of other people's opinions or concern for status.
c) I only wanted to be invested in work that made a difference being willing to dedicate myself to the point where it prevented me from sleeping.

a) I think we are on the same track
b) personal
c) How did you manage your work life balance? Which is your POV on it?

[jacob]

a) No, this is a quite different track/goal from the pursuit of comfort, status, and wealth.
b) ??
c) I don't detach from my work, so for me there's no need for balance. If I don't feel like I'm living when I'm working, I quit the work. When people use the term "work-life" what they really mean is "work-recreation-sleeping" (and how many hours for each), but I choose my work so that my work=recreation. This means I get paid to do what I think is fun and meaningful to me. I have managed to do this for most of my life because of (a) and therefore caring more about my independence than comfort or status.

[lillo9546]

c) I don't detach from my work, so for me there's no need for balance. If I don't feel like I'm living when I'm working, I quit the work. When people use the term "work-life" what they really mean is "work-recreation" (and how many hours for each), but I choose my work so that my work=recreation. This means I get paid to do what I think is fun and meaningful to me. I have managed to do this for most of my life because of (a) and therefore caring more about my independence than comfort or status.

focus on c.
This is so important. How did you manage that? Even Romans had their jobs in the morning and then recreation soon after. It makes me think about a soccer or professional player who loves what he/she does. It's his hobby, sport, and career, so he/she would not feel like working, and have this constraint. Sorry if I ask, but I do think the majority of people are in this "limbo". Even those who earn a lot and need "recreational" time. I want to be like you, because that made me think about coming back to me as a child, when the world was just "having fun with anything". So if you like what you do, you logically don't need recreation.

[jacob]

Step 1: Make a list of work that other people will dependably pay for. (Consider that maybe nobody wants to pay for your hobby or the likelihood of getting paid is low. E.g. making art, playing sports, ... )
Step 2: Cross out all the work that you don't have the talents for. (Be honest with yourself here. E.g. being a doctor might pay well but maybe you don't have the talents for doctoring)
Step 3: Cross out all the work that you are not interested in. (You might be good at something that even pays well, but it's just not that interesting to you.)

With such a list made the trick is to have the money to a) continuously build your talents to increase the list in step 2; and b) save enough money to afford the ability to leave when/if your interest fades in step 3. Rinse and repeat.

This combination is why ERE works in terms of creating a work=play situation. It will fail if you burn the money you earn on comfort or status items; or if you hate learning new skills like most people.

[fingeek]

@jacob it appears that you are describing a process to focus on primarily, rather than treating possible money as a side effect. In the context of this thread specifically, of course this makes sense. But I just wanted to be clear that your message isn't being misconstrued by others.

Be careful not to go too far and turn your play into a Job.

[jacob]

@fingeek You can approach the three lists from either direction. The idea is to figure out the overlap in the Venn diagram between talent, interest, and pay. It doesn't matter which one you start with, just don't ignore any of them.Ultimately, this will lead to treating money as a side-effect. However, there will be a material effect. Many mistakes are made when people pursue their passion (talent+interest) thinking that money will automatically follow as a side-effect. This is a HUGE mistake. Ignoring the pay is why so many end up with student loans they're unable to pay back. Another typical mistake is people pursuing pay+interest despite having no talent---lots of those people get into programming only to realize they're no good at it.

ETA: Okay, yes, there's a danger of turning play that you are interested in + you have the talents for into a job once you enter the pay-structure. That is a risk. However, when you're FI, it's mostly the risk of losing interest. Developing other talents helps here.

[fingeek]

100% agree. The "will someone pay for it" side is easy to ignore. My thought was that the pay set often grows and grows and causes the interest/enjoyment side to dwindle. And thus you're left to continue on the hedonistic treadmill, falling back into the trap of aiming for money.


I like to think in terms of "what are you optimising for?" (can't remember where I got the term - maybe here).

You generally need to figure that out before taking some sort of action. OTOH, I'm finding that taking action ends up with me in a far different position to where I expected to be. My first idea of what I wanted turned out to be inaccurate, and the process of doing helped me iterate towards what I do want. And of course as we age, so do our priorities/goals.

[Lemur]

Only time in my life where I experienced that all-in / I can't detach perspective was when 13-16 year old me was designing desktop computer games. What is great about video game design is that there are so many skills involved it really is impossible to be a master of everything but you've to be good at quite a lot of things. I'm sure modern game industry has specializers though. However, growing up and just designing games by yourself, with occasional collaboration / open-source involvement from others equally obsessed, I couldn't help but skip on sleep. Well rather...I couldn't sleep because I kept thinking about the next stage, environment, story, object, idea, concept, character, level, challenge, I wanted to design and bring to life on the computer so I just stayed up knowing that sleeping was futile anyway. School was just not important to me in those years. I was sleeping during class. The obsession ended when my parents got involved about my grades and people literally became concerned on my health. Forced enrollment in sports followed. No kidding.

Joined military post high-school, and with educational benefits even, I ended up not pursuing game design. That spark died or simply could not be reignited. Or maybe I did not think it was realistic anymore due to some life circumstances at the time (I married and had kid young and need to work like right now). I'm not totally sure. I ultimately pursued pay+talent and even ended up with a windfall career (data analyst). Without the fun though. And mostly because it is the only career that pays really well, matches my personality and temperament and I don't feel like jumping off a bridge. No passion though. So pursuing a pay+talent approach kind of worked out. Hard to ignore how awesome it is to be FI now. But I had some grueling years to get to this point (the dreadful consulting years). Or did it really work out? Perhaps in another world, I'm supporting character concepts on Elder Scrolls 6 and my intrinsic motivational spark is not dead. But I don't truly know - you can read a lot of stories online about video game designers who get their passion crushed by the job aspects of it. This quote comes to mind:

No man ever steps in the same river twice, for its not the same river and he's not the same man

Some of the above descriptions, and my story may sound somewhat disheartening, dystopian even to some, but there is nothing wrong with stable, good paying boring jobs while you figure out what you wanna do. Hell, Ken Wilber was a dishwasher while he wrote his books. I'm certain he did not have a passion for that and the pay was minimum wage! For some people it’s a privilege to ever find a job that they're also passionately interested in - that could take many iterations if you ever even find it. Though my story is ultimately a caution of what happens when you ignore interest from the pay/talent/interest triad. Being FI is pretty damn awesome too though. So maybe if you're gonna ignore one...then dump interest and get the escape money. But ultimately I do think FI can be achieved while keeping that triad together. Ignore interest at your own risk though because you can see your spark die. Good luck in whatever you choose to pursue.

[ertyu]

my pay + interest // no talent one is shrinking. now im doing mediocre pay + mediocre talent // not demanding, low interest -- a little like when jacob was formatting papers in latex

[jacob]

Back when I was selecting a thesis-subject and (naively) tried to pick according to my interest(s), it was pointed out to me that pretty much any subject can become interesting once you dive deep enough. In the framework above, I think this works even better under a situation of pay+talent. Not only are the "hygienic factors" of the environment there, but when you're also good at what you do, the interest is likely to follow. This is why I put interest last in the list of priorities.