AE's Journal Round 6 - Navigating the Liminal Space

[AnalyticalEngine]

Depression and Lifestyle Design
I've written a lot about depression in this journal, so I want to give an update about this topic. Depression is not really sadness. Depression is a serious mental health disability where you are so overcome by despair, low energy, and low self-esteem that you cannot function. It's not sadness, it's not feeling aimless. When you are stuck inside a depressive episode, it feels like insanity because you can watch the depression thoughts come up, realize they are completely detached from reality, and still get pulled into the spiral, over and over and over again. It feels like your own mind has turned against you, that reality is increasingly an ungraspable, ephemeral fog, that there is some sort of uncrossable barrier between you and everyone else and the rest of the world.

Which is to say, I finally started taking an antidepressant (bupropion), and holy shit, my life has completely changed. I have energy to do things, reality feels like it actually exists, I can talk to people and actually feel present in the conversation. I can actually sleep and make plans for the future and tell the difference between what is a reasonable idea and what is a depression thought. It feels like I just woke up one day and reality, the rest of the world, and myself started existing.

The problem with the (incorrect) public perception of depression-as-sadness is that depression is a complex condition that can have multiple environmental, lifestyle, and genetic factors. Yes, if you sit inside all day, stare and screens, and eat only junk food, you are going to feel like crap. But when you get to the position I was in, where I was living the perfect vegetable-cardio exercise lifestyle, where I was putting myself out there and making new friends, where I had no real reason in my life to feel bad, it's entirely possible that there was something more serious than lifestyle issues going on.

Now, what is also true is that depression is also a learned habit. You learn to respond to emotions and stress and problems with shutting down, being extremely negative, and not actually doing anything about problems you can control. This is usually why they suggest therapy with antidepressants, because while the antidepressants help, you also have to deconstruct the negative worldview and behaviors that become self-reinforcing. This is the step I am currently working on, and I suspect it will take time yet because I've been depressed for over a decade and have a lot to deconstruct. Still, I feel like I am on the right track for the first time in a very long time.

They say you need three things in your life for optimal mental health: something to do, somewhere to do it, and someone to do it with. In the past, many of these things were baked into Default Lifestyle, but the issue with the modern world is that you could easily live your entire life without any of these things because Default Lifestyle has become Screens and Work. Thus working these three factors into my Strategic Lifestyle Planning is my current goal.

I have hesitated to write this entry for awhile because it feels like what I'm doing is getting increasingly unrelated to ERE. I no longer really care about the eco-collapse stuff (pretty much just accepted the future is going to happen), I no longer really care about FIRE (feels like it's beside the point now), I don't know if I even plan to quit tech per say. I'm just trying to get my lifestyle to the point where depression no longer kicks my ass, and this is such a modest and mundane goal that I don't even know what I have to say about it. So I don't know if I will be continuing this journal because it feels like I have ran out of insightful things to say. Depression just sucks and the only real goal I have is to learn to enjoy the small things in life.

[J_]

What can I say AE? We have met via discord several times in our MM group. Thanks for your courage to write so openly about your feelings.

The third thing you mention is having a someone to share your ideas and discuss your life with or perhaps someone to love. You are a lovely person I do hope you will find one. For now you can write me a pm, or use this forum for further help.

[AnalyticalEngine]

Thank you, that does mean a lot to me, and I enjoyed our interactions in the MM. I actually have to give a big thanks to everyone on this forum because multiple people here made an effort to reach out to me when I was in a dark place, and that was instrumental in helping to get into the better place I am in now.

[OutOfTheBlue]

It looks like you've found a breakthrough with this medication, which has been helping you regain momentum to navigate this situation in much better terms! Kudos also for your decision to pursue therapy to support your inner work in combination with the antidepressants.

There is a lot more to share, but for now I'd just invite you to not throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to what you had been doing and what brought you up to this point. From where I stand, there is much continuity.

Much love!

[AnalyticalEngine]

Thank you, @OutOfTheBlue! I have a lot more clarity and stability on what to do, and it's all going to be the mundane things that make life better, such as focusing on health, relationships, and creativity. I feel a lot more capable of making these changes now and drastically less stuck in low energy. There are a lot of small changes to be made with how I spend my time and what I do in order to align my efforts with the outcomes I am pursuing, and a lot of "life debt" to recover from due to the depression, but I feel confidant I can get there now by doing small things each day to get there.

[NewBlood]

Great news on finding a medication that works for you!

I have hesitated to write this entry for awhile because it feels like what I'm doing is getting increasingly unrelated to ERE. I no longer really care about the eco-collapse stuff (pretty much just accepted the future is going to happen), I no longer really care about FIRE (feels like it's beside the point now), I don't know if I even plan to quit tech per say. I'm just trying to get my lifestyle to the point where depression no longer kicks my ass, and this is such a modest and mundane goal that I don't even know what I have to say about it. So I don't know if I will be continuing this journal because it feels like I have ran out of insightful things to say. Depression just sucks and the only real goal I have is to learn to enjoy the small things in life.

You should obviously do what feels right for you, and if that means ending this journal, so be it. Just wanted to say I really enjoy your posts. The most interesting journals for me aren't the ones focused on FIRE metrics, but the ones that capture people's journeys in life. I actually find the mundane more interesting than the theories/philosophies/numbers. People talking about their struggles, or developing their day to day habits into something that really works for them, small successes and failures, hobbies, skills. There is a lot of insight in the small things in life.

[Western Red Cedar]

I have hesitated to write this entry for awhile because it feels like what I'm doing is getting increasingly unrelated to ERE. I no longer really care about the eco-collapse stuff (pretty much just accepted the future is going to happen), I no longer really care about FIRE (feels like it's beside the point now), I don't know if I even plan to quit tech per say.

Jacob mentioned that the ERE forum is what we make of it - what we choose to post and the topics we choose to explore. I think the focus on mental health and neurodivergence is of immense value. A topic that most here would probably benefit from exploring more, if not for their own sake, for someone close to them.

You've spent a lot of time thinking about and exploring those topics. Probably more than most here. Your knowledge and writing skills allow you to explain things in an insightful and coherent manner. I still remember your post explaining the tendency to conflate "depression" as commonly understood by society with major depressive disorder, and the overlaps between the two. It was extremely insightful and illuminating, and something I haven't seen or heard described so eloquently from professionals.

These are clearly very personal topics to write about publicly, but keep in mind that you may be helping more people than you realize, and that may continue rippling out. I regularly share your takes on depression, masking, and neurodivergence with DW and they spur rich conversations.

[ertyu]

+1, what wrc said in that last paragraph

To me, even more than fire and eco-collapse, ERE is about systems thinking a life design. "Not depressed af" is an excellent first-order goal for a life-system. I agree that even if you end up writing mostly about one topic, the thoughts from there will still be useful to others. Ultimately up to you, though. Your journal needs to be useful first and foremost to yourself. Imo fuck what's ERE or not ERE, write about what's useful to you to write about - or about nothing, as the chips may fall.

[Crusader]

+1

These days I mostly lurk on the forum, but this inspired me to come out of the woodwork (and hopefully start posting again soon) and say that I find value in your non-ERE related posts and struggles. It makes me either feel more "normal" if I relate or "puts me in check" with my own (easy by comparison) struggles. Thank you.

[AxelHeyst]

+1. There are an uncountable number of people scattered across the entire world who smiled and #fistpumped at their screens reading your update, and went off to have a better day just because they knew you were doing better.

I really think that as the center of gravity of the forum keeps shifting closer to "finally out of the Cave of lock-in and now can go wherever you like, it's a choose-your-own-adventure", the stories of those who continue sharing here will tend to be get more and more divergent. That's sort of the point! Mundane? Chop wood, carry water, but now there's infinite beauty in every drop...

[Jin+Guice]

I think self discovery is an important part of the WL journey, especially post-FI/ post WL5. I hope you continue your journal.

[grundomatic]

Quit if you want, but it seems to me that this is THE place for post-FIRE, post-doom "letters from the field". If you just don't want to, then fine. If you are doubting whether there is value in what you write, go ahead and raise a fist in front of you, start cranking an imaginary fishing reel and raise that middle finger to self-doubt. Maybe with your new outlook/mental state a NEW journal is in order. Something like "AE7--the first day of the rest of my life".

[7Wannabe5]

Totally agree with what ertyu and others have conveyed. I would also miss reading your lucid take on many matters.

[Scott 2]

Your work is "advanced" retirement strategy IMO. Neglected mental health is a common driver to FIRE/ERE. And then the problems don't stop when the work does. That's a frustrating discovery.

Seeing this play out for others in retirement, can inform earlier and more proactive strategies. With some of my own challenges, I can only imagine if I'd invested sooner.

I took a burnout driven sabbatical in my mid 20's, but I had no conception of the problem or solution. With hindsight, it was obviously mental health driven. I can break down exactly why life escalated to that point. The choice was my best answer at the time, but not terribly effective. I repeated the pattern at each subsequent employer.

Maybe it's the people I'm drawn to, but it feels like everyone is navigating something. Those who find a better answer than white knuckling it, have much to offer.

[AnalyticalEngine]

Thanks, everyone. Hearing that my perspective here has been very valuable for many people is greatly motivating and makes me feel better about many of the things I've shared. As I've mentioned before, I've come to understand that my pursuit of FIRE was an attempt to actually avoid living my life, and that if I stop trying to avoid living my life and actually get engaged in my daily activities, they are a lot more bearable.

What I mean by this is that avoidance and dissociation are problematic coping mechanisms because your emotions exist for a reason. When I run away from internal states, I end up extremely stuck and unable to move on/make decisions because I don't even know how I feel and emerging from the fog is too painful. Becoming present with myself and my own life has been a massive undertaking, but now that I'm here, it's become a lot easier to function. The ability to recognize and act on problems without drowning in them is no small matter!

In terms of the future, my main focus for now is a back-to-the-basics approach combined with moving[1]. I understand the systems-theory approach to lifestyle design from the ERE book a lot better now, which I basically just see as running my life as if I were in charge of military logistics and strategy, so I am ready to start implementing this. It's going to include a lot of mundane things like getting on top of my food spending and a greater focus on health while caring less about "being frugal" because money is a solved problem for me. My plan roughly is to spend a lot of money to live in a cool part of town that I want to live in because it meets my social goals of catching up on missed social milestones while cutting back on food/random junk/waste.

[1] - The latest update in the saga of "reasons not to buy a condo": my condo HOA is raising our month dues from $280/mo to $425(!!!)/mo because their insurance costs went up. I am now paying $425/mo in fees for basically nothing except exterior maintenance and insurance. Combined with my property taxes and homeowner's insurance going up, I am now paying $1000/mo for basically nothing. Having fixed costs of ~$12k a year, not even including my interior home maintenance costs, is aggravating because I have the damned mortgage paid off. Given rent for the condo would be ~$1.8k/mo, I am paying rent prices with all the downsides of homeownership (property liability, having $375k tied up in an asset, etc). So yeah, time to sell the condo.

[Jin+Guice]

What I mean by this is that avoidance and dissociation are problematic coping mechanisms because your emotions exist for a reason.

I feel you on this because this is what I get up and work on everyday. It's the main focus of my life right now. A difference is that I don't feel that ERE is an avoidance strategy, in fact it's helped me engage with the world more, but that's just me.

It's going to include a lot of mundane things like getting on top of my food spending and a greater focus on health while caring less about "being frugal" because money is a solved problem for me.

I think this is very ERE. I think there is a phenomenon when you come out of WL5 aka "money is a solved problem" and transition to WL6 where you start spending more money. At WL5 you are a master and at WL6 you are a beginner again.

If you'e been avoiding something that you actually want to do to save money and saving money is a huge part of your identity or makes you feel safe, it's scary to start spending more on stuff you want at first.

The thing is, you're already a frugality master. You know how to move to a cheaper part of town if you need to for some reason and you're at a point where it's the least likely you'll need to.

The other thing that happens is, if you don't have much knowledge in an area, like living in a socially fun part of town or certain health things, the default and easiest way to get into them is to pay for them. You can just be WL3 or WL4 in that area only and then progress up the WL scale if you decide you want to.

[AnalyticalEngine]

This makes a lot of sense. I suppose it's like graduating high school and going to college--you are starting over, have to learn new skills and paradigms, and what worked in college won't work in high school.

Reaching FI feels like graduating "adulting" and the next part involves starting over and learning new skills. It requires being a lot more present with my life and my emotions because there's no one to tell me what to do any more and no clear right answer. As always, the hard responsibility of freedom.

[delay]

[1] - The latest update in the saga of "reasons not to buy a condo": my condo HOA is raising our month dues from $280/mo to $425(!!!)/mo because their insurance costs went up. I am now paying $425/mo in fees for basically nothing except exterior maintenance and insurance. Combined with my property taxes and homeowner's insurance going up, I am now paying $1000/mo for basically nothing. Having fixed costs of ~$12k a year, not even including my interior home maintenance costs, is aggravating because I have the damned mortgage paid off. Given rent for the condo would be ~$1.8k/mo, I am paying rent prices with all the downsides of homeownership (property liability, having $375k tied up in an asset, etc). So yeah, time to sell the condo.

Thanks for your journal update! That's interesting, I've been hearing more stories about housing costs. In addition to insurance and taxes, materials for maintenance are more expensive than planned, and there are new regulations that rule out cheap maintenance options. Some homeowners associations are taking out loans to pay for the maintenance, and that adds interest to the monthly dues. I get the feeling that there's a big wave of changes coming.

[suomalainen]

[1] - The latest update in the saga of "reasons not to buy a condo": my condo HOA is raising our month dues from $280/mo to $425(!!!)/mo because their insurance costs went up.

Happened to me too. Bought in 2020 when condo fee was $450/month (snow removal and landscaping are the two biggest budget items). By this year, it's been raised to $610/month, and then this week they assessed a special assessment for increased insurance costs because they had to beg the existing carrier to extend because they couldn't find a new carrier to take it, so it's $793/month for the rest of the year. I'd sell, but where would I move to? Given the kids and the divorce decree, I'm forced to remain in the same town, and the condo is still way cheaper than a(n old) house and all the maintenance issues 80-year old houses have.

[AnalyticalEngine]

Damn! $800/no in HOA fees is nuts. It's a significant risk with a condo because most buyer's only care about the monthly payment. So when HOA fees go up, it drives the cost of the unit down, which means that getting out of the condo can be harder after a few hike.

The housing market in Denver is getting so crazy that it frankly doesn't make sense to buy anymore. A house, at the minimum, is $600k here. That's such a huge chunk out of the average person's net worth that it's too risky. There's too much downside that it doesn't make sense to assume the liability of ownership.

It's definitely true, though, that maintenance costs on a house are potentially more, which is the main thing that's made it hard for me to sell. My total housing cost for my whole condo is ~$1.2k/mo, which is the price of renting a room in Denver.

Still, the real estate market is getting so backward that it's making me reconsider some things. I'm going to run some numbers because it seems like my options are either to double down on software and just pay a lot in rent (buying seems like a bad idea right now) or figure out some alternative housing solution (live in that house boat or RV). Incidentally, I think this is why a handful of the FIRE bloggers have picked permatravel. It's literally cheaper in some instances to live on a cruise ship month to month than it is to pay the mortage of a house in some of the really expensive real estate markets. $600k will buy you a hell of a lot of cruise tickets.