Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

[7Wannabe5]

@Sclass:

That's very interesting about your brother. I think that maybe sharing relationships that last from around 3 months to 3 years is what humans of either gender who primarily prefer to remain single and monogamous prefer and/or drift into. The reason why this happens is that somewhere around the 6 month to 2 year mark, give or take for personality type and circumstances and age, you are kind of compelled to either break up or take the next step up the conventional romance ladder which would be either moving in together or becoming engaged. Unlike your brother, I never had a "plan my exit" strategy worked out in advance, but I just naturally hit a juncture where it seems like next step should be taken, and I'm not willing/wanting to take next step or encourage partner towards making it.

When I was conducting my personal history review the January, I noticed that my first husband was my 10th partner and my second "husband" was my 20th partner, and now I am at 28. The lengths of my strictly monogamous (sexually non-overlapping, some friendship overlap) partnerships in the approximately 5 years between my first and second marriages were approximately: 1 month, 3 months, 9 months, 3 months, 3 days, 7 months, 3 months, 16 months, 8 months. Since I declared myself to be polyamorous in practice fairly shortly after break-up with my second "husband", my semi-overlapping partnerships have been of approximate duration: 2 weeks, 5 years, 3 months, 9 years (still going on some level), 1 month, 8 years (still going on some level), 2 weeks, 3 days. So, the practice of polyamory "fixed" the revolving door of boyfriends problem I had in between my marriages. This revolving door of boyfriends was fun in many ways, but it started to get weird for me when I would do things like auto-pilot reach out my hand to hold my companion's hand while walking around the city at night, and experience a micro-moment in which the identity of current boyfriend wasn't stable. Although, now that I think about it, interesting note would be that this never happened to me in sexual context, mostly in more domestic or routinely romantic contexts, like grocery shopping together or taking a road trip and using the restroom and then returning to his car (which car??) Maybe because I'm generally very present in the moment in sexual context, and most spaced-out when engaged in domestic routine. IOW, the revolving door of boyfriends phase of my existence conflicted somewhat with my tendency towards absent-mindedness or ADD.

So, I don't know if my pattern will persist and I'm only one more lover away from finding myself "married" for the third time OR it might be the case that the fact that I recently lived with my 26th partner on and off for around 3 years counts in my psyche as a "marriage" of sorts. It is the case that currently the thought of "living alone with some old guy" does not appeal to me. OTOH, I did sort of instantly crush-out on the guy I recently met who is an expert in primitive technology, which kind of killed my theory that my recent late-onset of menopause wiped out my potential for infatuation. So, dunno...

[Jin+Guice]

Oh ya, that is different than what I am trying to do, which is basically learn how to pick people up in bars or, more specifically, get better at starting conversations with people I want to talk to AND make situations more sexually charged/ get better at seducing people (or in a non-sexual/ romantic context, become better at sales/ persuasion/ understanding other's emotional state).

That really sucks for your brother because building those 3 month new-pussy relationships with an exit strategy like that is almost like practicing how to not have a long-term relationship.

[7Wannabe5]

make situations more sexually charged

I thought this was what you were getting at, so I was thinking about it a bit for you. Then I happened upon a scene in a novel by NYT Hardcover Fiction best-selling 21st century romance author Elin Hilderbrand, in which 5 women around my age are having a girl's weekend and talking about sex, which pretty solidly corresponded with a similar girl's weekend talk about sex with other women my age that I had.

Anyways, cut to the chase, this may not hold true for your generation, but the simple-not-necessarily-easy thing you should do is work on your upper body strength to the extent that you can easily literally pick up most females. I would estimate a solid 40% of "What did he do that really turned you on?" or "What was the best sex you ever had" stories I have ever heard or read from other female involved some overt display of physical strength from their male partner. For example, in the Elin Hilderbrand novel, the one female character who was still into her husband after more than 30 years of marriage, said "One thing he often does is come up behind me, wrap his arm around my waist, picking me up off the ground, and then brings me to orgasm using his other hand. Sometimes he does this in front of a mirror."

Another very effective play would be doing very quick switch off between bold dominant move and tender protective gesture. The bold move could be physical with the tender gesture being verbal or vice-versa. For example, being super quietly considerate about bringing her a drink and inquiring whether she is comfortable, but then whispering something along the lines of "I'd love to fuck you raw" in her ear as you move on to talk with others. Or if you were in a crowded bar scene, you could confidently literally pick up a woman to slightly move her out of your way on your "mission", but maybe faux semi-consciously nuzzle her hair a bit "Mmm...lovely" or smile in her eyes, and then continue on mission. Of course, it may be the case that these are the sort of moves you might get busted for these-a-days, so ....grain of salt.

[Jin+Guice]

@7:

I appreciate the tips. Those tips strike me as helpful within an already established relationship. While I welcome all tips, I'm specifically having trouble with:

we are on this fun date or in some other situation where I think someone might be interested but the vibe is not overtly sexy. How do I go from laughing in the park, to making out in the park, to in their bedroom.

I'm pretty bad at social scripts and prior to the last 2 months I'd probably gone on less than 10 dates as an actual single person. I've learned over the last 2 months that, if you are staying on script, you makeout at the end of the first date. I think there is some expectation to fuck at the end of the 3rd date? That one seems a lot less adhered to... which to me is positive because it would be weirder to follow a strict script for that.

I also want to thank you for the opportunity to brag because I can already pick up most women I am interested in relatively easily.

I also have a process which works ok, which is that I just straight up ask for what I want. But I feel like I could have more and betters ways of doing this?



I could also use advice for starting a conversation with someone and getting past the first few sentences until we find the thread that keeps the conversation going, as well as being able to get out of conversations I don't want to be in.

[ertyu]

we are on this fun date or in some other situation where I think someone might be interested but the vibe is not overtly sexy. How do I go from laughing in the park, to making out in the park, to in their bedroom.

Seems to me like this is the wrong thing to focus on. Other people are people and have their own agendas and things they want out of being on a date with you. A subset of people will want to take you to their bedroom because that's the sort of fun date they're looking for -- and if that's the sort of date they're looking for, the vibe will get sexier without you having to force it. Another subset will be looking for, and testing for long-term relationship compatibility and there's nothing you can do about that. An overt "sales" display will turn those people off anyway. Yet another subset's sexuality might work differently than yours, needing a particular level of emotional safety and connection before they want to do anything. And so forth. So imo don't try to push the situations that aren't overtly sexual. The biggest bang for the buck here seems to me to be sensing when things are getting "warm" so you can lean in and play. You're asking, how do i influence people so that they meet my needs. Why not ask, what's the intersection between their needs and mine that would make our relationship the most optimal? And then play a numbers game. Just my 2c, with the caveat im aware we're quite different in this respect

[Jin+Guice]

I dunno, if my goal is to be more seductive/ set the mood better, it seems to me like getting better at being more seductive/ setting the mood might be the right thing to focus on.

[7Wannabe5]

How do I go from laughing in the park, to making out in the park, to in their bedroom...I've learned over the last 2 months that, if you are staying on script, you makeout at the end of the first date. I think there is some expectation to fuck at the end of the 3rd date? That one seems a lot less adhered to... which to me is positive because it would be weirder to follow a strict script for that.

I have to say that I kind of agree with this based on my experience:

A subset of people will want to take you to their bedroom because that's the sort of fun date they're looking for -- and if that's the sort of date they're looking for, the vibe will get sexier without you having to force it

OTOH, I have been told by a number of men I have dated that it was difficult to determine that I was an HSP (highly sexual person) prior to kissing me. Likely because my dating behavior might involve a good deal of distracted babbling on fairly obscure topics. However, this also points to the fact that it is basically un-possible for me to not vibe that I am an HSP if/when a man who is attractive to me does kiss me. So, if you are an HSP hoping to hook up with other HSPs then maybe figuring out how to just get to the kissing would be the primary hurdle. Sometimes the old guys I date do it old school and just kind of grab me up for a kiss, but oftentimes they will simply say something like "May I kiss you?" at an appropriate juncture.

Of course, it is also the case that even females who are HSP are not necessarily shopping for "just casual" and may adjust their behavior accordingly. However, I would estimate that when two HSPs are dating, it's most likely that sex will occur on their second date, given that in online dating context, the first meet&greet would actually be considered Date 0. Some reasons why two dates would be necessary even with an HSP female would be that she has to at least determine that you aren't a psycho-killer or likely date rapist, and then get a feeling for whether you would likely be any good in bed, and also even HSP females need more meaning/narrative/merit attached to their couplings than the average man. Actually, now that I think about it, one of the main reasons why I would only very rarely agree to have sex with a man on a first date is that one date is not a big enough hurdle for me to gauge even just purely sexual interest from a man. IOW, even if I'm definitely not looking for a long-term partner, the sex itself is going to be better for me if my partner clearly sexually desires me enough to make at least that much effort.

[suomalainen]

@jin - I think ertyu's point is environmental / more basic. If your goal is to fish for bass, use bass bait instead of trying to use salmon bait to land bass. In other words, don't try to convert a good catholic girl into a loose slut. Once you're playing in the slut pool, how to "close the sale" is a different, narrower question. I guess the advice there is to just ask them. (there's a link to the Feynman story earlier).

[Jin+Guice]

Hmmm, let me try asking a different way.

The mood on dates I go on is just not very sexy. It's very fun and light, just not very sexy. And it's usually kind of awkward when we first kiss or sleep together... until the kissing/ sex is actually happening. I'm bad at escalating sexual tension and making smooth/ appropriate transitions from fun to sexy and then from the date venue to someone's house, which are the skills I'm concerned with.

@ertyu/ suo: How to identify and get dates with the slut pool? I'm usually kind of surprised by who sleeps with me on what date. How to filter for heauxs?

I'm also not exclusively trying to get laid with as little effort as possible. I'm trying to avoid marriage type commitments right now, but I'm available for other types of relationships. I just know this inflection point is a weakness in my dating strategy.

eta: Jesus, this Feyman article is so offensive.

[suomalainen]

Haha. No offense to anyone here (including me), but this is maybe the wrong crowd to have good answers to your question? I tend to think of sexual attraction as something that happens and not something that can be manufactured. My understanding is that if a guy is figuratively leaning in with an arm on the back of the coach and the other already working the belt, that the vibe is more "rapist" than "casanova". In other words, I would say you have three options:

1) Flexible /passive - you pick up what she's putting down as best you can and you go with the flow. That flow may be towards long-term rather than casual, so you may "waste" your time more as each prospect will take 3 dates plus to see where they are on the horny scale, but you'll have more chances to uncover the hidden 7s.

2) Slut - you be a slut and nothing but a slut and you never deviate and you just hit bar after bar after bar and app after app after app in a pure numbers play. Someone somewhere will hit that. You may "waste" a lot of time missing out on a bunch of hidden 7s who get turned off by the schtick, but you won't waste any conversational energy.

3) Hybrid - you pick up what she's putting down as best you can and you go with the flow. Every now and again in a conversation, you try different things to see what she responds to - all that shit @7 was saying about dominance and tenderness, etc. Attempt at best of both worlds and avoidance of worst.

I first read the Feynman story way back in high school. My dad actually gave me the book because Feynman was his physics hero. Anyway, I thought that story was hilarious. Different times.

eta - and first dates / first sex is always awkward. Why would you expect it to be otherwise?

[Ego]

Long-term thinking is one of the cornerstones of ERE. Repeated indulgence in short-term pleasures often comes with lifelong consequences that are not immediately obvious. Here we use our abilities of prospection to look ahead and avoid situations that produce those long-term consequence.

Different people have different abilities to anticipate the future. Fortunately, the forum tends toward long-term thinking. The collaborative prospection here on the forum is on of our greatest strength.

Though it is curious that the subject of relationships is one of the few areas where the forum is willing to give advice on how to be successful in the short-term and how to cope with the resulting long-term consequences.

[suomalainen]

What long term consequences are you referring to?

[7Wannabe5]

@Ego:

My observation would be that the philosophy and advice offered on this forum is not consistently long-termist. For example, we definitely do not offer counsel towards remaining passionate about the same career over 40 years, and we do not much discuss the negative externalities of short-term pleasure travel vs. forming deep attachment and roots in one given region of residence.

Obviously, short term sexual liaisons are much less likely to contribute to CO2 emissions than short-term international travel, but a balanced approach such as your mixed long-term/short-term residence/travel approach or my mixed long term/short-term polyamorous relationship approach or the semi-ERE approach we share in the realm of work/occupation might serve as the sort of lifestyle design most likely to provide appropriate mix of robust and resilient, deep old roots energy and bright new vista energy

[UrbanHomesteader]

I can only speak for myself, but as a straight female born in 1980s west coast culture to parents who would divorce each other twice before I turned 10, I do not resonate with any of the traditional "what women look for in a man" stuff I read about. The main thing I considered in mate choice was whether I liked being around the guy, and whether there was sexual chemistry, of course.

ERE aligned with my values very well, but I didn't know about it until 8 years after my current relationship started.

I had always assumed I would be responsible for myself financially, so I didn't really think about the economic prospects of my mate choices. I do remember that on our first date he paid for dinner and entertainment but I insisted on paying for gas, since the date involved 4 hours round trip travel. I did not have positive associations with the idea of a man paying for everything...I had to maintain my independence.

Our "first date" wasn't the first time we hung out. We had made cookies together in a shared co-oed college house before that, and had hung out on the roof of that house. I can confirm that all the men I dated demonstrated some ability to cook before we hooked up. I can't imagine dating a man who can't cook. But I can totally imagine dating a guy who is not well off financially.

[7Wannabe5]

@UrbanHomesteader:

Your take was very much like mine prior to my first marriage at age 23. Almost everybody I dated was a friend I had hung out with in other context, and we were all young and mostly moneyless. It was only after I started dating again at age 42 that some of these patterns became obvious to me, in large part due to the fact that by the time men have reached an age where they have either failed or succeeded at accumulating significant resources, those who have accumulated resources often become quite blatant in signaling with them. It is also the case that men who have not accumulated resources by midlife are simply less likely to attempt to conventionally date. Pretty much the only two qualities I screen for before agreeing to meet somebody for coffee are “literacy” and “manners”, but somehow this results in around 80% of the middle-aged men I meet being fairly affluent. And a few notable exceptions were men who had only recently experienced a financial crash from former affluence.

It seems like my pattern is that when I allow myself to “chase boys”, I prefer artsy guys who don’t necessarily have much money, but when I follow the rule of “only date men who actively attempt to pursue/date me”, I end up with men who are significantly more affluent. Kind of like I sometimes visualize myself as being a 1940s movie blonde who is directing a play and simultaneously having relationships with the extroverted muscular affluent cigar-chomping producer and the hair flopping attractively over his sad eyes, tending towards introverted alcoholic, writer of the play.

[Ego]

What long term consequences are you referring to?

I will answer your question with a question. Anecdotal. Do you personally know anyone who has consistently done the hookup/short-term relationship thing beyond their twenties who is not...
1) mentally ill (pdf) and/or
2) severely depressed and/or
3) self-sabotaging and/or
4) desperately lonely and/or
5) addicted/heavy users of things that deaden/alleviate the pain

[suomalainen]

Well, I don't know anyone who's consistently done the hookup thing, even in their twenties. But "long term consequences" assumes causation while your list there seems to be more correlation. I dunno. I'm not trying to get into it, I just didn't know what you were referring to. I thought you might have just meant like STIs and pregnancies.

[7Wannabe5]

@Ego:

I gave your question some thought and also ran it past a couple other women around our age I am hanging out with today.

Mini- consensus seems to be that we do not know any women who consistently/only have very short-term relationships/hook-ups who are not also alcoholics or quite cuckoo-bananas. Exception being that we do know some women who almost never have any form of relationship, but maybe did have a couple very brief relationships, who are otherwise sane, functional, attractive humans. IOW, de facto celibacy with very occasional fling is functional choice for some women.

OTOH, we do know some men who consistently have short-term/hook-up relationships even into their 50s who are otherwise functional. Although, my personal experience has been that these men are usually de facto polyamorous and have non-sexual important ongoing relationship with some woman in their life. For example, there are men who primarily support their mother or a sister and have short-term flings with sexual partners, and this “cultural” variation is not necessarily dysfunctional.

ETA: Even the female sex workers we know usually have long-term boyfriends or eventually got married.

ETA: I don’t remember if he ever was married, but on this forum C40 would be the closest example of the sort of highly functional male “player” type I know IRL.

[urgud]

@Jin+Guice: it's one of life's great mysteries. How, indeed, do you change the mood from "normal" to "sexy"? It requires some kind of leap of faith. I happen to live in proximity to a great many bars, clubs and related venues, so I get to witness people doing/trying this on a semi-regular basis. And honestly, I wish I had a real answer for you. To me, it looks like most of the time, the dude is just shooting his shot awkwardly and sometimes semi-nonconsensually, hoping for the best.

On a related note, I also happen to find dates to be largely unsexy affairs, so it's not really an activity I partake in anymore. What appears to yield more consistent results is basically just 1) showing up to whichever social gathering is on 2) perhaps collecting a phone number for some more or less organic reason 3) waiting until the woman decides she fancies you and drunk texts you at 1AM.

[7Wannabe5]

It’s often awkward, but it’s not always awkward. Probably easiest thing to do is think of some famous perso or character for whom it isn’t awkward and then practice copying their behavior. For example, watch some old Sammy Davis Jr. clips.