ERE or Semi-ERE past Age 65

[urgud]

That's what I meant by "every man for himself" - there's probably no one coming to save you, so it makes sense to worry.

[Sclass]

@ertyu I’m not really an authority on the hemlock solution. I was told that the window to take your life is narrow when suffering from dementia. Apparently one has doubts and fears once diagnosed and the temptation to go into denial is strong. Then as the disease goes for a certain period you become okay with it and you don’t feel the need to kill yourself. My friend who killed himself after his cancer diagnosis was of sound mind. He could see where things were going and he just blew up the tracks. He saved everyone a ton of trouble but we all miss him and the shock of his suicide and note still lives in me.

My mom missed her window to do herself in. She was suicidal from an early age. So I think she was capable of it. But she wasn’t after she spun out with dementia. She was okay with a lot of things that made her upset in the past.

7W’s Bowen theory is making me do some soul searching. I am an empiricist so I try to plug my variables into the formula. Some of my inputs are inverted and the answer isn’t what I want to hear or believe. But there are some parts that ring true. I certainly wanted to distance myself from the pain of caring for my mom. And I did by hiring a lot of people. Like the magnet in the box it never would go away altogether no matter how hard I tried to escape.

I’m currently buried in my parents’ dust and trash while cleaning their home. I’ve become aware (from the neighbors) that there are services who will do this for me. It reminds me of distancing from emotional stress again. Well, time to get up and dump my dumpsters.

[sodatrain]

I just want to say how much I appreciate this thread and the related discussion. I don't have a lot to contribute at this point, other than I'm reading along carefully. My parents are aging and generally have a "we don't want to be a burden" and seem to have the resources to decide between home care and these (fucking racket seeming) continuous care facilities. And then I think about myself late 40's, and how I'll contemplate death and healthcare/dying (hopefully) way in the future. Neither my parents or I want to be kept alive when it's too late.

[The Old Man]

Family is a bad solution, as you are now putting a continual, every day burden on them, or it gets put in the portfolio of family members too disorganized to do their own shit routinely.

This is ridiculous.

ERE ethos is about using all the capital that is available and only using financial capital as a last resort. Financial capital is the resource to use when you don't have other capital available.

My mother took care of my great aunt, paternal grandmother, maternal grandmother, and my father (when he came down with cancer). My paternal grandmother, age 99, spent the last six weeks of her life in a nursing home. The strain of taking care of my father and grandmother was too much especially when my grandmother took a tumble and broke her hip necessitating some help from a neighbor and was the catalyst for moving her to a nursing home.

Until recently I was with my mother. Called the ambulance when she took a tumble and broke her hip. Called the ambulance again when she was acting very strangely and thought she may have suffered a stroke or something similar. Plus did many other things for mom, the house, and the car. I have since passed the baton to my sister.

If we had gone with assisted-living arrangements, she would now be broke and subject to the whims of institutional mismanagement. Just because something is more expensive does not mean it is better.

Mom has the social and financial capital to weather whatever storms come her way. She is rich and I don't mean in a financial sense.

[candide]

This is ridiculous.

Sorry you feel that way. My re-engagement on this thread started with something I wrote on my own journal, and then had it moved over here, and then had someone ask me to write more.

But, hey, congratulations on your almost-centenarian outlier example. You win the internet today (though you did lose to yesterday's round of magical cures that will work 100% of the time when applied correctly. I felt for you then; don't see the point now).

I frankly don't have time for any of this.

[suomalainen]

What, exactly, is ridiculous when you yourself identified triggers for getting outside help in your own family?

My paternal grandmother, age 99, spent the last six weeks of her life in a nursing home. The strain of taking care of my father and grandmother was too much especially when my grandmother took a tumble and broke her hip necessitating some help from a neighbor and was the catalyst for moving her to a nursing home.

Until recently I was with my mother. .... I have since passed the baton to my sister.

I think everyone here is saying the same thing, but some are just more sensitive to how quickly social capital can be overwhelmed. But it seems everyone agrees that this is the best mix of available resources, if you have it:

Mom has the social and financial capital to weather whatever storms come her way. She is rich and I don't mean in a financial sense.

[Smashter]

@candide I for one very much appreciate you giving your thoughts despite the time constraints. I am riveted by this whole thread and have it bookmarked for future reference.

My wife's grandparents both died in the last few years. They lived in their home right up until the last weeks. This was only possible because they had 7 kids, many of them still living nearby. The kids were willing to spend tremendous amounts of time and energy taking care of them. Through sheer force of will those kids were able to get their spouses and even the grandkids to do all sorts of chores and house maintenance. It was impressive to behold, and it was nice they could avoid a nursing home. But I didn't envy the workload of the core 2 daughters who held it all together.

[Sclass]

My problem was with those that acted like they would still be using charm and accumulated social capital to deal with the end-game of life. In this society, the one we actually live in, if you don't use any money to set up any structures, you are just dumping a bunch of shit on your loved ones that is perfectly avoidable.

Agreed. It’s asking a lot.

Sorry I know you don’t have time for this. We are going in circles.

[The Old Man]

I felt for you then; don't see the point now.

No need to feel sorry. It is part of the great circle of life. Perhaps, I could have been more diplomatic in my sentiments. It was not my intention to hurt your feelings.

[The Old Man]

What, exactly, is ridiculous when you yourself identified triggers for getting outside help in your own family?

Below is ridiculous.

Family is a bad solution…

ERE ethos is about using all the capital that is available. Financial capital is the resource to use when you don't have other capital available.

My great aunt worked as a housekeeper. Do you think she had a lot of money? She had some since she was frugal. My grandmother worked as a nurse’s aid. She had a monthly pension of $50. How far is that going to get you? Reaching for the checkbook is an option only for the very few. Frankly, family and community are the greatest resource for the vast majority of the population of the planet. To dismiss it out of hand is crazy.

[Ego]

Frankly, family and community are the greatest resource for the vast majority of the population of the planet. To dismiss it out of hand is crazy.

You are arguing for the traditional approach in a world where the cultural components and simple realities underpinning those traditions are disappearing or changing fast.

Family size is shrinking incredibly fast. People of differing cultures are intermarrying and watering down inherited traditions. Women who were the traditional caregivers are now busy with full time employment at rates greater than men. High divorce rates have caused children to feel less committed to family and have fractured inheritances. The distance people live from their childhood home is increasing fast. Medical interventions have increased lifespan very quickly but not healthspan. As a consequence, more people who are unable to care for themselves live longer and longer. That means if a family member commits to care for a parent, they agree to deal with more complex health issues for longer periods. All this while rates degenerative diseases requiring teams and specialized care are exploding.

The vast majority of the population of the planet has no alternative but to care for aging family members. Many Western countries have created alternatives. Culture is changing fast. Cultural expectations are changing even faster.

[suomalainen]

ERE ethos is about using all the capital that is available. Financial capital is the resource to use when you don't have other capital available.

It’s not a religion. There is no pure dogma.

Frankly, family and community are the greatest resource for the vast majority of the population of the planet. To dismiss it out of hand is crazy.

To think that this crowd dismisses anything “out of hand” is what’s crazy. Or, more accurately, shows the reader has a severe case of confirmation bias and/or poor reading comprehension. Did you not read the story? Did you absorb no context? Or, as candide already adequately put

... I think it is this insistence that no matter what it just has to be the case that "a little help every now and then" will be all that is required that kinda tips the hand that someone doesn't understand the part of life I am talking about.

Why, when you yourself abandoned your mother to your sister, and your mother abandoned your grandmother to a home, is it so hard to accept that other people reach this juncture too?

This is the only ridiculous, context-less position on this thread.

[The Old Man]

I concur with your sentiments. I believe the traditional approach is in alignment with the ERE ethos.

[candide]

Perhaps, I could have been more diplomatic in my sentiments.

Perhaps. But then me and my family would need to have a worth outside of serving your vision of tradition and/or ERE.

Thanks to everyone else's kind words, or at least additional perspective...

Wife and I brought my daughter to see her first mountain today (she turns two next month for those unfamiliar). It was a magical experience watching her eyes light up with wonder at the landscape. We were only 2,400 feet or so up, but it was plenty beautiful and certainly different than our home county. (Still within the same state).

These are the types of memories and meanings I am trying to weave with my limited time on earth, and I'm not going to sacrifice them for claims outsiders want to make on my family, whether 1) the aforementioned systematized parts of the care when the elderly is past the true sense of autonomy (self rule, rather than whims), 2) content creation for no pay or 3) preening to fulfill some stranger's view of how something should be done.

[ertyu]

If it'll make you less annoyed, consider that such "how something should be done" views are often deep down people fighting against their own vulnerability and fear of being helpless. It's frightening to imagine yourself alone, demented, decrepit, and suffering with no possibility of helping yourself, having lost all your relevance or status. It's that fear that fuels the militant, "but they SHOULD care for me!! It's the RIGHT thing to do, it's the HUMAN thing to do, we live in a SOCIETY it's what we've always done" and so on and so forth. This stance is particularly easy to grab onto when you are the one traditionally taken care of by others (a man, a patriarch), rather than the one caring -- in other words, when holding on to tradition means, "they SHOULD wipe my geriatric ass" and not, "I will blow my back out and be buried in an angry old man's feces for the next fifteen years, in addition to maintaining my husband and children, with no end in sight." The POV I care for is the POV of the person who's been there and who's had to wipe some ass.

[candide]

If it'll make you less annoyed, consider that such "how something should be done" views are often deep down people fighting against their own vulnerability and fear of being helpless.

I can see that. Well, I think I'm done with this thread.

See you guys on my journal in July ... maybe.

[Sclass]

If it'll make you less annoyed, consider that such "how something should be done" views are often deep down people fighting against their own vulnerability and fear of being helpless. … The POV I care for is the POV of the person who's been there and who's had to wipe some ass.

This was my dad. My wife always suspected that he himself feared being tossed into a nursing facility. He may have pushed hard to keep my mother in her home to set a precedent for his care.

He really fought hard about going into skilled nursing. Apparently they gave him a test and he intentionally failed it. My half sister begged them to let them in. They eventually acquiesced with the condition that he go into hospice. Then the funny “unkindness charges” started showing up on the billing. The guy lived and died a manipulator.

I never understood when he threw his own parents into skilled nursing. It happened after he got their primary caregiver pregnant. He just dumped his folks and ran away with their nurse. New toy. She got her old job back as my dad spun out twenty-five years later. She cracked around Christmas and sent him to skilled nursing. It was pretty hellish according to my half sister. Dad made sure nobody slept more than two hours at a time. They did double doody shifts for a year before they drove him to the facility.

They begged me to come over. I refused. BTDT. Only for mom. Not for dad.

My full sister sent me photos. He had this bed that looked kind of like a cross between a recliner, exam table and hospital bed. He was nude with a sheet draped over his body as a light blanket. Private room. I’m not sure whether it was better or worse than his own bedroom at home. At the end he just lost consciousness and died.

[suomalainen]

Apropos of probably nothing, a few stories I've been told:

1) Colleague had a mom needing lots of care. I think one sibling basically took care of her during the week and the other siblings (in their 50s and 60s) rotated weekends to give the full-time caregiver a "break". I don't recall what the financial arrangements were, but I always thought it extremely lucky that all the siblings were close enough by (within 2 - 3 hour drive) and were all amicable enough with each other to do it.

2) Friend's mom died after a long bout of trying to care for her while the dad did his best to block care for who knows what reason. After the mom died, the dad spiraled downward until he too needed extra care and they moved him into a home. He took a shit in the middle of the common room at least once.

3) Other friend's mom died, also after a long bout of trying to care for her while the dad did his best to block care for who knows what reason. After the mom died, the dad spiraled, but in a different way. He (in his 80s) shacked up with a woman (in her 60s) who: (i) called around to his insurance companies asking how to increase his life insurance, (ii) stayed in his apartment and stole his money and refused to leave even when the cops came to evict her (at the children's request) and (iii) drove her car over her drug dealer when she went to buy drugs and the dealer said or did something she didn't like. She was arrested for that and that was what finally ended that "relationship". Dad died fairly shortly thereafter.

If my dad dies first, my mom's plan is to go into a community for the extra support even though she doesn't need acute or chronic care now. If my mom dies first ... yeah, I think my dad's plan is to exit roughly the same day.

Regardless, this is a topic that I think begs for discussion long before the need arises. If the prior generation is planning on leaning on you for their care, you and they should agree parameters, etc. Same if you're planning on leaning on a younger generation. Doing this unspoken would cause just totally unnecessary friction.

[delay]

The stories from @suomalainen match with some I've heard. Some people lose the fight against sin in old age. The classic seven sins are pride, greed, wrath, lust, envy, gluttony and sloth.

Not sure you can counter this by agreements or planning. People consumed by sin do not follow agreements or plans.