Frita’s Lost and Found

[Frita]

Oof, I struggle with keeping a journal here. Depending on how defined, previously imagined or current spend, I hit the forums FI. That part was easy. What has followed has been many things, some of it cautionary tales.

My spouse’s dream was to retire early since before we married. I figured he’d continue doing his hobbies, perhaps add a few more or swap some out. Turns out he was “retiring from” instead of “retiring to.” He currently spends his days isolating and doing very little. It is just sad. At this point, he would like to be divorced as he says having a wife and kids isn’t for him.

I had never planned to retire with him as I found meaning in my work in education. While our location looked better on paper, it has not been a good fit for me. I guess one can say that I have tried job hopping, quite unsuccessfully. The moxy I learned as a trailing spouse has done nothing for me here. Even volunteering has been disappointing. I have a knack for identifying potential friends who move after checking out the community behind the curtain.

After 30+ years of keeping a paper journal, I quit. Cold turkey. A public journal triggers shame (or twinges of guilt on good days) based on childhood admonishment of being vainglorious or attention seeking. Family of origin programming…I don’t believe in divorce either. Oddly, I don’t project such silliness on others. The truth is embarrassing. I need—I want—to let that go.

So, what the hell is this journal about? I guess figuring all this out and see how many entries to some restored balance in my life. I can use a project where I have enough agency to distract me a bit. Feel free to follow along, comment, or ignore.

[mountainFrugal]

Finding out what to do with your time when it is all yours is a very hard problem. I look forward to following along and appreciate how candid you are with your description of your husband. Is it possible for you to lead and him to trail for a while? Feel free to ignore if it is too personal a question.

[ertyu]

Yeah dude sounds depressed af. Not on you to undepress him, though, one im not sure that's possible, and two im not sure from what you said that that's what he wants. You say you don't believe in divorce, but I get the sense that even though a part of you is holding on, a part of you is ready to let go as well and see what life has in store for you - some other place location-wise, etc.

As for the public journal, I wouldn't call it vainglorious. You're not attention-seeking when no one is obliged to click and read, people are entirely self-selecting and volunteering to engage, even. As for The Truth (dun dun dunnnnn) it is only embarrassing if you keep it to yourself and stew in the disapproval you project on others. Too often, you put shit out there and what you get is a bunch of nods and "yeah, it do be like that"'s.

Good on you recognizing that your husband retiring-from -- his job, his entire life, it seems -- doesn't mean you can't search for what -you- are retiring to. Another miscellaneous thought I had: sometimes a person like that in your life, who only holds you down with their inaction, actually serves you because as long as you're grasping onto them, you don't have to face your fear of change, or any of the challenges that might get involved with your own freedom-to. I'm plopping all of these thoughts down in case any of them help; feel free to disregard anything that's not useful. Looking forward to seeing where your freedom-to will take you. What are your thoughts so far? How can you pursue your freedom-to?

[delay]

My spouse’s dream was to retire early since before we married. I figured he’d continue doing his hobbies, perhaps add a few more or swap some out. Turns out he was “retiring from” instead of “retiring to.” He currently spends his days isolating and doing very little. It is just sad. At this point, he would like to be divorced as he says having a wife and kids isn’t for him.

Thanks for your journal! Retiring into idle isolation is curious but I've seen it happen to regular retirees too. Perhaps your husband doesn't see himself as beautiful near his wife and kids.

[UrbanHomesteader]

I'm curious to hear more of your story. A lot of us have found that life isn't all sunshine and rainbows, but helps to hear what others are experiencing.

[7Wannabe5]

he says having a wife and kids isn’t for him.

If he hasn't made an appointment with a lawyer and there is no third-party involvement, then in typical man-speak this translates to "Waaaaaah."

I don’t believe in divorce either.

So, you do believe in "marriage." What does that look like for you at Level Yellow? What does it look like for your husband?

Having been there myself, I know that one of the tough things for an eNtP female with an extremely introverted and/or depressed spouse is that you are kind of stuck between being able to have the sort of fun social/adventure life you might create for yourself if you were single and the sort of fun social/adventure life you imagine you could have if your husband was willing to do more as a couple with you. This is especially true if/when you are retired or self-employed-without-co-workers and your kids are past the play-date/Mom-friends phase. ((There's a whole 'nother set of downside to being with a husband/BF who is much more extroverted/domineering than you ))

My final volley to my ex was along the lines of "We need to have sex, date nights, and work together on projects on a regular basis, or I am out of here." His response (as I thoroughly expected at that juncture) was along the lines of "Yeah, I'm not up for that or down with that." So, then we fairly amicably moved towards separation. He got an apartment nearby, so our late teens kids could visit him whenever they liked. Our banker even noted how well we seemed to get along as we dissolved our joint accounts. Then a couple months later one of the kids let it slip to their father that I had a date with a Physicist and he completely freaked out; let himself into our marital house where I was still living in the middle of the night and I woke up to find him standing over the bed, babbling about getting back together with me in semi-drunken ego-damaged fashion. At that juncture, it was waaaay beyond "too little, too late." I had put up with his "surly" for so long, I found just having pleasant conversation over dinner with another man to be a complete revelation, and the day he moved out it felt like an albatross had been removed from around my neck; I literally found myself dancing across the living room floor by myself.

That said, with much water under the bridge experienced since that phase of my life (which was 17 years ago!), my advice to you would be to drop your end of the rope, and keep dropping it, because you won't even realize how tightly you were holding to it until your perspective is much further out. For example, one of the most "differentiated" moves I made while still "trying to make it work" was when I let myself get a bit drunk one summer afternoon and while lying on the bed in our room emitted a light-hearted stream of consciousness fantasy about what I wished "some man" was available to do for me. It was like I could almost see the gears move in my ex's brain as he came to some level of comprehension that my "desires" and "demands" weren't all wrapped up in him. The fact that he freaked out about my post-separation dinner date with the Physicist was evidence that I perhaps didn't go far enough with this sort of "differentiated" revelation prior to throwing down my ultimatum or two-choice dilemma (if you haven't read "Passionate Marriage" by Schnarch, I highly recommend.)

[Henry]

At this point, he would like to be divorced as he says having a wife and kids isn’t for him.

So Frita, how does this make you feel?

[Frita]

Finding out what to do with your time when it is all yours is a very hard problem.

Yes, it’s counterintuitive and an age-old issue. I think of Siddhartha Gautama, before he found the Middle Way and became the Buddha, suffering whether fabulously wealthy or a pauper. And the oppressiveness of a lifetime of waiting to die by a lifer confined to maximum security who transcends through finding meaningful pursuits also comes to mind. Both involve acceptance and some creative experimentation to move beyond the current reality. Currently, both are growth areas for me.

Is it possible for you to lead and him to trail for a while? Feel free to ignore if it is too personal a question.

That was my original idea! Based on our conversations and his verbal commitments, I expected to take more of the lead once my spouse retired. Turns out, my spouse is rather controlling and self-focused and avoidant. In his functional worldview, marriage is not a win-win partnership (though he knew the right answers in premarital counseling and has an amazing! public persona). Only one person can call the shots (him), someone has to lose (me), and compromise is fine as long as I am doing the compromising. When we were both working, his talk-action disconnect was less noticeable and explained away by demands of his career. After about three years of his retirement, I started to realize things were not as they seemed.

[Laura Ingalls]

I have no real advice, just virtual hugs. The good thing about your situation is that with someone without much initiative (DH) you can try out ideas at relatively low risk.

My long time pastor/coworker said that she approached premarital counseling in her first marriage as an exam she wanted to ace vs an opportunity to learn. It was a strategy that didn’t pan out particularly grand in that situation.

DH are still trucking along without premarital counseling. Though we had an experiment with martial counseling that left us both conclusion it’s a flawed system and that individual counseling is usually more worthwhile.

[Frita]

Yeah dude sounds depressed af. Not on you to undepress him, though, one im not sure that's possible, and two im not sure from what you said that that's what he wants. You say you don't believe in divorce, but I get the sense that even though a part of you is holding on, a part of you is ready to let go as well and see what life has in store for you - some other place location-wise, etc.

To me, he also seems depressed and anxious and has low frustration tolerance/anger issues. He is unwilling to get help. It’s the whole “You can lead a horse to water but cannot make him drink” thing. I suspect these mental health issues were present since before I met him and while he was working. It must have been exhausting to pretend to be someone else all those years.

In theory, I believe marriage is a lifelong commitment by both parties to each be responsible for things to work. Who knows whether one is truly committed unless tested by life’s challenges? If he had ALS or MS, I’d still be here. Why the double standard for emotional conditions? There also was a mutual effort condition to be met that has not occurred. I would not recommend staying to a friend in the same position. Like anyone else, I deserve to be treated with care and respect. If he is unable or unwilling to work as a team, to be accountable and responsible, it seems more skillful to explore options at this point. (I do need to consider generational ride-or-die marriage programming.)

As for the public journal, I wouldn't call it vainglorious. You're not attention-seeking when no one is obliged to click and read, people are entirely self-selecting and volunteering to engage, even. As for The Truth (dun dun dunnnnn) it is only embarrassing if you keep it to yourself and stew in the disapproval you project on others.

Thanks. One thing that has happened with my spouse’s isolation is that I, too, have become isolated. I want to (re)discover who I am.

Good on you recognizing that your husband retiring-from -- his job, his entire life, it seems -- doesn't mean you can't search for what -you- are retiring to.

Yes, I can choose what I want to retire to even if I don’t know what that looks like. As pedestrian as it sounds, my life dream was to get married and have a family. I like to learn and I like change. My plan is to throw some things at the wall and see what sticks. More about that later…

[Frita]

Retiring into idle isolation is curious but I've seen it happen to regular retirees too.

Idle isolation (great term) as a retirement lifestyle at any age does seem strange. Even buying into a retirement community resort, while not for me, makes more sense. Of the people you’ve seen afflicted, what happened? Did they just do nothing until dying?

These are my spouse’s current favorite activities:
• Lying down on bed or couch for hours at a stretch during the day (intermittent episodes or even majority of day).
• Eating heat-and-eat frozen foods (burritos, corndogs) or going to McDonald’s.
• Moving around house speaking to no one with no eye contact.
• Going to library and reading or listening to podcasts for a few hours.
• Shutting door to his bedroom/former guestroom and doing whatever.
• Attending basketball games alone.

[Frita]

I'm curious to hear more of your story. A lot of us have found that life isn't all sunshine and rainbows, but helps to hear what others are experiencing.

Truth, life is a mixed bag for everyone. If it takes an average of 500 entries for people to become FI, it will be interesting to see where I land when I get there. (My old abandoned journal had 199, so perhaps I am closer than I think…)

[Frita]

If he hasn't made an appointment with a lawyer and there is no third-party involvement, then in typical man-speak this translates to "Waaaaaah."

Oh, I guess I don’t know much about how this works. My expression has been that he wants me to take action so he can still be the good guy whose mean wife divorced him. I try not reward passive aggressive behavior.

So, you do believe in "marriage." What does that look like for you at Level Yellow? What does it look like for your husband?

I don’t know that I believe in marriage either. It seems like such a blue institution. In theory, if both people are on the same page and they can love and be responsible for themselves (and grow and support that development in each other), it can work. Having two parents, ideally both committed or at least contributing something, is better for raising kids. If I were widowed, I don’t see myself wanting a new husband.

Historically, people didn’t live as long and had lower expectations for what marriage was. Perhaps what was once good enough, for others as well as myself, is now unacceptable.

There seem to be different options for what being married could be for people, for us. Since the couple thing based on his retire from isn’t working, I am shifting to figuring out where I am headed on my own at this juncture. I am fed up but don’t feel in a rush to impulsively divorce either. The same thinking that got me here is not going to solve the issue. At my most peaceful times, everything seems okay now and needs to change tomorrow.

I used to think he was more orange to my green. Anymore, I think that was an act to blend in and he’s more red. When I leave him alone, he has his own battle. I don’t know that he’s in a position to have a healthy relationship with anyone at the moment. I don’t care to try to rescue or fix him either, much less be a muse for his misery.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Yes, it is a limbo-like state, especially when not working and being past the mom-friend phase. The community here ranges from introverted to insular, which also has not helped either.
If one person chooses to sabotage by stubborn inaction, there isn’t much that can be done. (From a change standpoint, apathy is a challenge because concern/care is a prerequisite and there is no behavior to replace.) It is comforting to know it improved for you with time.

Dropping the rope is a good metaphor to remember. At times it seems I have tied the blasted thing to my waist, wondering why releasing it isn’t working, am fumbling around with untying the knot, and need to cut it instead. Time to carry a pocket knife!

[mountainFrugal]

I am not saying to do this actually... but a thought experiment... what does it look like for you to leave? After having done that thought experiment is there a middle ground? No need to answer publicly.

[ertyu]

Why should there be a middle ground? Imo do the thought experiment and let the chips fall where they may.

Fwiw, I don't think there is a double standard with mental/emotional conditions and physical illness. An adult partner is responsible for taking care of themselves physically to the best of their ability, too, and for considering how his failure to do so impacts others. The key here is that he is unwilling to get help. As you said, Frita, there's two commitments: one is for better or for worse, but the other is mutual effort. I second 7w5's advice on dropping the rope and seeing what happens. If you wish, you can always pick it up again.

[delay]

Idle isolation (great term) as a retirement lifestyle at any age does seem strange. Even buying into a retirement community resort, while not for me, makes more sense. Of the people you’ve seen afflicted, what happened? Did they just do nothing until dying?

• One went on to drink more and more, until he was drunk 24/7 watching TV the living room, and died around 70-ish.
• One took on electronics as a hobby and is permanently automating small or big things, but avoids contact and only talks to people who physically visit him.
• One became depressed and almost died and then changed into a happy and active volunteer in a gardening community.

I'm always moved by the children, who foot the bill of any divorce. I pray parents manage to stay together until the kids are grown up.

[jacob]

Some random comments on the freedom-from/to:
The human personality is based on innate temperament with a cumulative construct of experiences. These experiences are based on the self and the other, where the "other" are things like culture, work, spouse, ... In the simplest possible terms we might say that a human is combination who they innately are and who the environment are making them out to be. (These two reflexively impact each other.)

I've found (personally but also from seeing others) that retiring and taking away a big part of the environment part leads to the personality slowly converging towards its innate temperament. Basically, retirement means slowly discovering who you really are as a person. (As does divorce.) This is easier for some than others. If the job [identity] took over most of the personality with very little ego left, the convergence may fail. The person might discover that without a job all they know is standard consumer-recreation. And so they go back to the job. The chains were a necessary part of them. Others easily shed their job identity because it was never something they were.. it was just something they did or were interested in.

I think enneagrams are the best (most useful) descriptions of who people naturally are. For example, I'm a solid 5, no wings. I used to have some 1 in me, but the longer I've been out of the job market (nearly 9 years now), the less 1 is left.

Now, the thing with couples is that Ann might have fallen in love with the job part of Bob. Like e.g. what made Bob get up at 630, put on a suit, book a 2 week annual charter vacation, selecting matching pillow cases from the bed&bath store, etc. Whereas without the job, the Bob shows no interest in all those things that for Bob was just part of the job. This is particularly bad if those same things were part of the innate core of Ann.

By taking Bob out of the environment, Bob slowly becomes a different person. This in turn changes the relationship between Ann and Bob. And this change of relationship again changes who Ann and Bob are.

Ultimately, divorce (or the death of a partner) affects different people differently. For some it is a disaster because they were so integrated with their partner that losing them meant losing a big part of themselves---it leaves a void. For others, it's easy, because their partner was not a big part of themselves. Freedom-from a job is much like breaking up a relationship. Same dynamic. For some it's easy, for others it's hard.

Now, consider that were not just talking about a relationship between Ann and Bob but also between Ann and Ann's job, and Bob and Bob's job. (In all likelihood, Ann's Job and Bob's job do not have a relationship, but Ann does have some relation to Bob's job (Bob's job affects Ann through schedules, etc.) and Bob to Ann's job).

Thus, a standard DINKing couple actually have 5 significant relationships, any of which can change the whole dynamic. It is also possible that they don't. However, this is something that I suspect couples don't talk enough about before making those big changes. How will it change me? How will it change you? How will it change us?

[jacob]

Idle isolation (great term) as a retirement lifestyle at any age does seem strange. Even buying into a retirement community resort, while not for me, makes more sense.

One of the retirement OGs literally called his magazine The Idler. Most of his book titles are about idling. The quote from the wiki page reads:

A characteristic of the idler's work is that it looks suspiciously like play. This, again, makes the non-idler feel uncomfortable. Victims of the Protestant work ethic would like all work to be unpleasant. They feel that work is a curse, that we must suffer on this earth to earn our place in the next. The idler, on the other hand, sees no reason not to use his brain to organise a life for himself where his play is his work, and so attempt to create his own little paradise in the here and now.

Everyone's paradise is different. You're an extrovert, so your paradise likely involves regular interaction with other people. Whereas for an introvert, hell is other people, especially on a regular basis. It's only bad if one ends up in the wrong paradise. For example, my nightmare scenario is ultimately ending up in a retirement home, where I'd be expected to perform daily small talk with the other inmates.

[Henry]

The Protestant work ethic doesn't want work to be unpleasant. Protestants believe work (and childbirth) became unpleasant because of the fall. Work is a natural condition of man that in a sinless universe would be pleasant because it would glorify God. The Protestant conception of eternal life involves work. Upon my arrival, I plan on applying to the thunder and lightning division so I can test my bolts by launching them up the assholes of my idiot neighbors.

[ertyu]

One of the best afterlife goals I've read of. I hope you get your dreams @Henry

Also, words cannot describe how deeply I disagree with "we should all pray that the parents manage to stay together until the children finish high school," but I'll leave it to someone else to rant about that one. The children only "pay the bill" if the parents fail at being parents. There's an entire other shitty bill you're saddled with when you grow up in a dysfunctional household where the parents are white-knuckling it supposedly for your sake