The Education of Axel Heyst

[AxelHeyst]

@rref - oo, thanks for the link.

@berrytwo - sounds like how healthy ecosystems have some minimum number of parts/relationships, e.g. some minimum level of complexity, to be healthy / attain dynamic equilibrium. Keeping with that metaphor... the early and shorter term stays could be thought of as a form of pioneer species adding nutrients and infrastructure for future organisms. The system does need filters / an immune system to deal with toxins. I'm reminded of something I probably read in a business book: if you don't remove the toxic people from your organization, their presence will drive out the non-toxic people. This takes skill, experience, emotional intelligence, dedication, vision...

Relatedly, @theanimal just gave me the in-retrospect-obvious idea that I could set up a thru-hiker stop here and probably do well. There are a lot of outfits that cater to PCT thruhikers offering a variety of amenities at a variety of price points, so it's definitely a thing... but there are none near here, the carries north and south of here are long so all but the nuttiest hikers get off to resupply here, and the nearest towns in either direction are a 30min hitch.

Why this idea seems to be a good fit for my wog:
.Would be a motivation to build infrastructure for more people (solar showers, tent spots, more toilets)...
.and it would pay for itself/the infrastructure and almost certainly generate a surplus.
.I'd meet interesting people and some of them might be interested in coming back later
.Organic matter import (all the nightsoil!)
.Seasonal: I could run it for ~2months in the spring and have the rest of the year to my own devices
.I could build incrementally. No need to have a full shower block with toilets and a general store on year 1. Start simple and inexpensive, no need to bite off more than I can chew.

[jacob]

I could build incrementally.

Starting with a lemonade stand

[sky]

There is a thru-hiker stop on the CDT south of Pietown that would be a good example of what you could do. Davila Ranch: https://www.davilaranch.com/

[mountainFrugal]

You could start a PCT podcast: Live from Quail Haven.

Starting with a lemonade stand

This reminds me of the college house next door to me in grad school. They drunkenly built an "Advice Stand" in their yard at 3 am. They would then sit in the yard every night and give passersby unsolicited life advice. You could model your pricing after the Peanuts character Lucy.

[AxelHeyst]

@jacob -- judging by the animals and the other thru-hikers I've met, I could start with a milkshake stand and probably slay.

@sky - very cool, thank you

[Ego]

A good sewing machine, some bolts of silnylon, a pile of old tent poles and various snaps, fasteners, elastic line and other doodads would make you the trail gear repair specialist.

[AxelHeyst]

This idea just gets better and better...

[jacob]

FWIW, Anacortes, WA is a starting point of Adventure Cycling. Thought about it. This could be a thing. I don't know if one can made a living doing this, but supporting such a point of contact could be a source of meaning. Depending on the tourism business is risky business, but for RE it's great, because seasonal and at-will albeit that people may/will come to depend on it, even years later, so maybe not entirely at-will.

[Jin+Guice]

Calling on the ghost of @Riggerjack:

To paraphrase one of the many lessons he taught me, all problems are businesses waiting to happen.

[theanimal]

I told @AH I figure he could charge $5-10/person per night for a campsite, wifi, package pickup, charging and water. Necessary infrastructure is a clear spot for tents, a spot for shade, something like picnic tables, toilets and a charging system. That part lures them in and could likely get close to 1 JAFI of revenue per season . Anything on top of that, like gear repair, milkshakes/fresh food and resupply offerings like dried food is a bonus. Thru-hikers and backpackers are good because they are used to sleeping on the ground and having nothing. Other groups like cyclists and regular tourists would want more infrastructure and more luxurious accomodations

ETA: There are also a few donation based trail angels and stays on the PCT. We've noticed that it seems like those who are doing this are only recouping their costs at best. There are definitely a contingent of thru hikers who are bandits (in this forum's version of the word). A low cost as described above is still a better option than almost every single resupply spot on trail, is understandable given Quail Haven's location,l and would be sufficient to cover costs + generate a surplus.

[sky]

Showers, frozen microwave burritos/pizza, ice cream, laundry, chairs and tables, hammocks, fire pit, place for gear explosion-reorganization.

[AxelHeyst]

I just want this in here.

I don't think FI is for everyone. I do think ERE is for everyone.

One of my basic premises for semi-ERE is the realization that we can live an economically fulfilling life "below the poverty line" is not the same as the realization that we can save 33x expenses and live off of investment income. Those two things actually aren't that related except that the first one makes the second one easy to attain in todays economic environment.

Of those two, living WELL off of 1 JAFI per year is the revelation. Saving to retire is not a foreign concept. The retirement portion of Early Retirement Extreme is the least interesting part.

The early portion is also interesting. It's interesting because the assumption is that there isn't much else to do besides work. It's the co-mingling of the assumption that more money = more stuff/ " (purchased) experiences" = more happiness and the assumption that work is the only meaningful, moral and interesting thing that we can do for most of our lives, that keeps us locked in.

These assumptions are fucking insane. They are so far from the truth that once you get outside of them they are maddening. I used to be bummed that I grew up with these assumptions but thank fucking god I did, otherwise I wouldn't be able to relate to anyone I talk to.

Since I find these things to be deeply untrue, I think almost anyone could benefit from ERE.



I think the most difficult people to convince are upper middle class consumers who like their jobs. Imo, the entire house of cards is really about beating your neighbor while also being terrified your neighbor won't accept you and you won't be able to get the things you need if you don't play the game. Joe the job loving upper middle class consumer is currently winning this game, so he it's going to be hardest to convince him to join the other losers. He gets his kicks the way he is supposed to, by consuming. He genuinely likes his job, so he doesn't want to quit.

How does he possibly benefit? Socially winning feels good, so not there. Having a fulfilling job is working for him, so not there. But Jesus Christ we sell the upper middle class such hollow plastic fucking garbage. It's also not actually fun maintaining a giant house full of shit you don't use.

How is aspirational Allen gonna take it when you point out that his McMansion is ugly and made of barely higher grade material than cardboard, he lives really far from everyone he likes or cares about and needs and the furniture he heats/ cools in all of his empty rooms is made of particle board?

Most consumers aren't even good at consuming.

Quality is actually affordable now, but right as this has happened we stopped knowing how to recognize quality. This is another skill we've specialized away. Who has time or energy to know or appreciate anything about anything?

Another piece to this puzzle is that we were actually all mostly aspirational and not in need of quality. A mcmansion is not a mansion, it just signals mansion... at least it used to until everyone else got one...



Anywho... bit of a rant tangent there. I'm not suggesting we start with the hardest people. I just wanted to give an example of how even the hardest to reach people *could benefit from ERE. Anti-consumer strategy finally gives people the time to become more skilled consumers. To use the language of the book, the person above is likely locked-in pretty heavily with years of decisions and debt hanging over their head.

But there are a lot of people who didn't chose that life, who are trying to do interesting things, but suffer from the narrative that they are losers* and live in poverty. What these people need is funding. Like ERE is the equivalent of tenure or a small arts endowment or a small inheritance or getting your startup funded or a small business loan approved. Most people dream of economic wealth and what they would do with it and ERE just shows you that you already have it. Some people are just addicted to the dream and will never be happy, but other people could benefit from the knowledge of how to do a lot with a little and these are often the people who are painfully close already doing that.

Like instead of being like "be responsible and smart and figure out some stuff that is simple but not easy" can we be like "what would YOU do if 80% of your income was immediately freed up?" "what would YOU do if 80% of your time was immediately freed up." "what would YOU do with enough savings to not worry?" "What would YOU do if you could build your own house in four years." "what would YOU do with a $10,000 small business loan six months from now?" and like a bunch of other things that make up what ERE actually is that's not just FIRE.



*I was never happy with my music "career" until I found ERE. No one who works in music is happy. There is always someone higher up the totem pole and once you get to the top you have to work ceaselessly to stay there until you are inevitably dethroned. I've been on exactly one tour and it sucked. I know people who tour professionally. Sounds like it'd be fun for about 3-18 months. I play the level of clubs I went to as a kid that are still my favorite places to see shows. I've had transcendent musical experiences on stage. I've played at major festivals. I've gotten access to the weirdest shit I've ever seen. It'd be cool to up my musicianship or have some new experiences, but mostly I'm fine with doing more of the same. That is what I call success and personal fulfillment. That is the power of ERE.

[Jean]

This forum is soon going to be about running a camping site.

[ebast]

A renovation sister-in-arms runs in her spare time a bikepacking stop on what she's made feel like a campground: there's a well-functioning outdoor shower, firepits, shelter for bikes, space to camp, plans for a bunkhouse. She publicizes it through warmshowers.org which is fairly familiar to the forum and a nice hosting option if you're not near any of the long trails. An interesting phenomenon which she's discussed with me is the selection bias arising from the differential between staying with her versus the ample public lands also on offer: I'm saying they want to do laundry, or at least there is a vocal contingent of people interested primarily based on services on offer on site. With thru-hikers, of course, who I gather don't go off-trail quite so lightly, this would likely be true by design.

But in her case there is also a contingent of quite capable, very skilled folk-who-happen-to-be-cyclists that have helped over time with construction and maintenance on site, including people who make annual trips, stay to enjoy the area, and bring civil engineering educations, building experience as well as tools and help out for weeks at a time. The fact that she doesn't bat an eyelash to sweat a pipe, wire PV, or jack a house herself and meanwhile hosting this gradual accumulation of a skilled work-crew, all while bearing the poise of a true country gentlewoman, may explain why she's so-far declined my help with anything despite the fact I occasionally cut things square and work for free.

Is it a warning? If I sit back and smell the gestalt: she does seem to have to deal with an awful lot of maintenance over what's there already. It is not the most passive or sheltered natural environment, elements and fauna, not to mention some unenviable local hydrology, so each year there is regular and unexpected maintenance needed. Maintenance falls on her. That tradeoff, between how much time demanded for maintaining your fixed plant versus how much free time you have to land and expand into spinning up ever more and ever more exciting systems seems so critical and so underarticulated. It's a pretty clear subtext to the common ills you mention of ecovillages and workaways (1. OMG! we have systems we have no knowledge to maintain! 2. We have systems we maintain with money, but no money! 3. I have too many systems to maintain to my standards and no one else I can entrust!)

I am probably remembering here stories I've seen from adjacent enterprises like running small organic farms or small sailing school & marinas, and though less familiar with the intentional community literature, have been exposed to a sample of the permaculture literature where remember: permaculture design begins as well it should with thoughtful observation and then a quite extensive and enjoyable envisioning step. Envisioning. At least if someone like me is doing the envisioning, wished-for systems proliferate, and a priori it is hard to explicitly model ongoing cost and maintenance needs. How many willing working sharecroppers will it take to keep this all going? Also, hopefully this will not attract people for whom design is exclusively more fun than doing, but I think the scaling-up problem-- getting from here to a happily spinning ecology-- is underaddressed. There are important and charming exceptions, e.g. I've always loved how the ever-practical John Jeavons in "How to Grow More Vegetables" pushes you to start off with the last thing anyone reading a gardening book has: humility. Like you say: "start simple / build incrementally," Jeavons encourages you to begin with a 100 sq foot garden that will enlarge into a 240 sq foot garden the next year, on the way to becoming a 380 sq foot garden by the fourth year, at some point blossoming into the 1300 sq ft garden he could so easily have started with himself, all with an eye that maybe the topsoil you're building is your own nature. You will learn what it will cost to maintain. But that's a somewhat contained problem and a little cookbook-y in execution. To the more general systems designs? Well, how can you? It's so site-specific, the problems you will face so idiosyncratic, the environment potentially chaotic...

It's why I appreciate that she began with the outdoor shower: at the end of a day of all that, at least you can retire to a warm shower. She did hers in western red cedar with a pitched roof, it smells woodsy and petrichorean and rejuvenating, and what an appealing balance of practical and aesthetic design considerations it must be to build one. Systems proliferate. I'd like an outdoor shower. Why don't I have one? Or first, why is there not some feed of glowing shots of outdoor showers, I mean the quirky backyard ones, jury-rigged outside repurposed warehouses, off-grid under the stars, I want the not-to-code, you know like those compendiums of cabins: "cabin porn" they call it, but ah, don't try searching that with showers.

[Riggerjack]

Calling on the ghost of @Riggerjack:

To paraphrase one of the many lessons he taught me, all problems are businesses waiting to happen.

I'm not dead. Just... exploring being quiet.

But since I've been summoned forth by name, I do have some input.

What I'm interested in building here might be described as somewhere in between an ecovillage and a hackerbase with 'artist-in-residence' vibes. Polymath residencies?

A lot of the ecovillages and workaways I've looked at and resided at have either:
1) Needy vibes. ('OMG we need someone who knows how to build stuff that won't fall down and kill us / wire up a PV system that won't electrocute us/start a fire PLEASE HALP US')
2) Money stressed vibes.
3) Competent, but micromanagey and controlling about precisely what projects to do and how to do them, and often walk around pissed off all the time about how the 23yo volunteers can't magically build flying suits of armor in a cave like iron man or read their minds.

You already know what it is like to work for me!

Truly, it is hard to work for #3. Harder still to imagine becoming #3. Hardest of all is being #3. Learning ways to avoid #3, (in myself and in others) without triggering the other two has occupied my mind for years, with no clear, easy answers.

But I do have a few questions to ponder that may be of use:

Definitely more New Alchemy Institute vibes, where the overall vision was research and development of ecotech and socialtech appropriate to a low-fossil fuel world. But not dependent on grant money or donations to keep the thing running.

What did you like about New Alchemy? They always seemed hollow to me, "all show, no go". So I'd really like to know what spoke to you.

In other words, for my Desired Outcome="Grow a drylands appropriate food forest at Quail Haven" project

I would suggest you consider why this is your desired outcome. A food forest with nobody tending/harvesting it, is a breeding ground for all the life you want to control (rats/bugs/fungi), to have a food forest. How you want to harvest your food forest should factor into what infrastructure you provide to attract harvesters.

I know you have more wanderlust than I do. So how does your desire for the road stack up with your desire to alter your local space?

And, potentially, someone else gets to spin up a food forest and tuck that into their life experiences belt which otherwise they wouldn't have been able to pull off.

the first task might be "Build a comfortable and beautiful tinyhouse" with a parallel task of "start EREawaying and/or workawaying to develop skill, experience, and further infrastructure related to hosting medium to long term guests/residents at Quail Haven".

What relationship is in your head, between yourself and the people you hope to host? How can you build infrastructure to attract the right people, who have the right kind of expectations? What barriers/boundaries would you erect to keep the wrong ones out? How much life energy are you willing to devote to enforcing your boundaries/maintenance of infrastructure?

So my personal WoG is enrichening and playing to my strengths and so is theirs...

Excellent. But strength hopes to be additive, and weakness is usually multiplicative. Now, how do you play to minimize your weaknesses, and theirs?

If I take on an ambitious social/group project that was over my head and I ought to have known it, that is a big deal, because I've just screwed with other people's lives. There's a level of social responsibility that goes along with attempting group projects.

It could be worth exploring why you think this is true. Is it still true if you don't feel ownership over the project? What else changes, when you lose that project ownership? Could that be useful to you?

Relatedly, @theanimal just gave me the in-retrospect-obvious idea that I could set up a thru-hiker stop here and probably do well...
Why this idea seems to be a good fit for my wog:
.Would be a motivation to build infrastructure for more people (solar showers, tent spots, more toilets)...
.and it would pay for itself/the infrastructure and almost certainly generate a surplus.
.I'd meet interesting people and some of them might be interested in coming back later
.Organic matter import (all the nightsoil!)
.Seasonal: I could run it for ~2months in the spring and have the rest of the year to my own devices
.I could build incrementally. No need to have a full shower block with toilets and a general store on year 1. Start simple and inexpensive, no need to bite off more than I can chew.

Given your location and skillset, I would focus on campsites (not hard to create/maintain in the desert, and cheap), composting toilet, and some kind of solar shower set up. If you don't have a waterline to where you want the campers, hauling and storing water are joy killing chores... potable water storage is a subject all its own. And how much extra water do you want to pump from your well? (I hear things about water scarcity in your neighborhood.) But adding a waterline opens up lots of possibilities.


And +1 to what ebast said. It's easy to envision systems to solve the issue you are looking at, but the system maintenance is the real confining factor to watch.
...

Previous attempts at "relocalization" have not worked because as independent as EREmites purport to be most still want to stay close to family and existing friends. Yet, perhaps now is the time as it may becoming more obvious that IRL connections with other EREmites is pretty nice.

Jacob, I know this was the lesson you learned from the ERE City thread, and your time running the forum. I wonder how it changes your thoughts to rephrase the lesson.

The lessons I learned from the ERE City thread went something like:

ERE is a strategy that works anywhere. Thus, one existing place is not much better than any other existing place. So the incentive to uproot is weak.

Most people go through a window in their lives where uprooting is easy. This window tends to coincide with low skill and high sense of adventure. a second window often opens after a career. This window tends to coincide with high skill and far lower sense of adventure.

So the obvious challenge for ERE2 is the creation of a space unlike existing spaces. A space that attracts the people you want, with barriers to entry that exclude the people who would otherwise crash the party.

Once a space grows big enough, "social" problems will eventually appear. The only potential choice in the matter is which form they take.

So that makes it a really important potential choice, doesn't it?

In terms of metaphors, I see the social aspect of ERE2 much like the German general staff saw Blitz Krieg. Boyd probably had some refinements to this. The point was that blitzkrieg was too fast for a top-down command chain (Orange)---obviously it's also too fast and too wide for the (Green) consensus method---so instead each local commander would both have an idea of the strategic goals as well as the liberty to take initiative and pursue those locally as he saw fit. In order to do this, all commanders would need to be generally educated---and it so happened that they were. As such the relevant meso-strategies would emerge regionally depending on how things evolved.

Technically, this is Yellow type leadership. What it requires is a unifying vision of something the group wants to do as well as individuals who can all contribute [their own mission] towards this vision in their own way. Usually this unifying vision is supplied by one person (the most visionary) rather than created by the group. Basically, supplying the vision is just a skill like any other and it's done by the one who does it best/takes the initiative to do so. For example, EREfest was a vision by one person. So was the MMGs, the meetups, and the forum.

Maybe this deserves its own thread.

I think this is best hashed out here. Axel has an established baseline to work from, and has been open to his journal being used this way.

Would you mind fleshing out your thoughts here: "In order to do this, all commanders would need to be generally educated"

What happens to this yellow model when the relationship between the center and periphery changes? When the "leader/central command/visioneer" moves from giving orders and providing coordination, to offering information subscriptions, offering coordination?

Same structure, but teams in the field get to decide how much (if any) of the pipe dreams coming from HQ should factor into their day to day operations. What happens when those teams can choose what flavor of HQ pipe dream they subscribe to, how much they listen, and how they will compete and cooperate with the teams nearby?

[AxelHeyst]

@ebast TIL that a comment about campsite design can sound like poetry.

Design for low-maintenance is the dream, isn't it. A lot of my designs sit on the shelf and I refuse to implement them until I iterate the implied maintenance down below some threshold. As a former HVAC engineer I know what I'd be signing up for with a conventional system so I won't have one. Build passive performance (thermal mass, ground coupling, shading, natural ventilation, etc) and acclimatization are the primary strategies. Point-of-use mechanisms where absolutely required (I have terrible fall allergies due to the rabbit brush around here, and so I am now sitting in the wash of a small 12v fan with a 4inx6in hepa filter taped to it).

Do thru-hikers need solar showers? Or would 5gal jugs with valves do just as well? I have both and I'm coming to prefer the latter. For where I'm thinking of putting the site water access wouldn't be an issue.

I am playing with the balance between 'do it right the first time/*Build* It For Life' and 'you don't know what you're doing, so you don't *know* how to do it right, so just make something to get out of analysis paralysis, generate experience, and later you can do it right'. Unfortunately 'temporary' builds and bodges have a tendency to be good enough for 5, 10, plus years.

[Slevin]

I am playing with the balance between 'do it right the first time/*Build* It For Life' and 'you don't know what you're doing, so you don't *know* how to do it right, so just make something to get out of analysis paralysis, generate experience, and later you can do it right'. Unfortunately 'temporary' builds and bodges have a tendency to be good enough for 5, 10, plus years.

Feels like you need to 'wet test' whether your thru-hiker stop idea has legs, yeah? I.e. you should implement your MVP with the simplest builds first, get people coming out, see whether you are getting a good influx, then expand the skeleton with the BIFL solution.

This should be quick to start implementation (Idk your whole plans, but seems like you could get a skeleton up by the time next season rolls around), then you need to get the word out, and network / sell it until you can get enough people that it seems income viable to upscale the operation.

As a wise man once said:

The only way to learn is by playing
The only way to win is by learning
And the only way to begin is by beginning

[ertyu]

Imo there should be redundancy in this plan. "Even if it doesn't work as a rest stop I can still use it as an XYZ" sort of thing. Where XYZ is intentional community site, EREsidency site, woofer/workaway hosting thing, whatever

[dizzy]

Relatedly, @theanimal just gave me the in-retrospect-obvious idea that I could set up a thru-hiker stop here and probably do well. There are a lot of outfits that cater to PCT thruhikers offering a variety of amenities at a variety of price points, so it's definitely a thing... but there are none near here, the carries north and south of here are long so all but the nuttiest hikers get off to resupply here, and the nearest towns in either direction are a 30min hitch.

Why this idea seems to be a good fit for my wog:
.Would be a motivation to build infrastructure for more people (solar showers, tent spots, more toilets)...
.and it would pay for itself/the infrastructure and almost certainly generate a surplus.
.I'd meet interesting people and some of them might be interested in coming back later
.Organic matter import (all the nightsoil!)
.Seasonal: I could run it for ~2months in the spring and have the rest of the year to my own devices
.I could build incrementally. No need to have a full shower block with toilets and a general store on year 1. Start simple and inexpensive, no need to bite off more than I can chew.

Hey! I've hiked the PCT among other long trails. Would love to throw my couple cents in the mix to ya. I'm not sure if you'd prefer that on DM's or not.

I will say the idea that it will "pay for itself" is not necessarily true. A lot of hikers from what I heard skip out on paying or don't pay a whole lot. More and more my impression (and I am not alone) is that a lot of hikers feel entitled to special treatment and don't give the proper thanks, or donation. Also if you are off grid it will depend on cash on hand and as you know people don't carry so much cash anymore, thru hikers even less than average person.
Anyway it depends on how much your setup costs for you. Luckily you are on ERE and probably spend money efficiently/frugally.

A lot of hikers usually want to get to town also for the following priorities which I think are mostly in order: resupply, good meal, recharge stuff, internet, shower, sleep in real bed

That being said I still encourage it! I would love to do something like this myself (there is this super weird property I've seen for sale close to the CDT that has been on the market forever that would be perfect, haven't convinced P2 yet tho lol) but for sure it's about the community and not the money making possibilities I think.

HMU by DM if you want to talk more ideas and prefer that off the thread here.

[jacob]

HMU by DM if you want to talk more ideas and prefer that off the thread here.

I'm also interested. Once thought about supporting bike repair along the Adventure Cycling routes. (Anacortes, WA to be specific.)

I suspect a common downside of providing any free service is that some (fortunately a small percentage) will take such services for granted. There seems to be some kind of inverse rule between entitlement and cover charge, ha! Since this doesn't seem to be that much of a problem BEFORE services get discovered by the wider public (there are some airbnb and warmshower horror stories after those sites became a thing), I suppose the trick is not to get too popular.