How do you raise kids with wisdom?

[macg]

The one character I could relate to resulted in a 3000 word essay which was about 3x the norm at the time. Finally!

I can't be the only one who wants to know the character...

[scottindenver]

Has anyone read Hold Onto Your Kids by Gabor Mate? Its a tough read but it discusses the effects of youth culture and the changes in society towards peer group orientation instead of family orientation. Other people have written about the decline of extended family groups and the decline of nuclear family life in general. But this book discusses how damaging the effects can be of peer group orientation and decline of parental influence. Mass marketing towards youth doesn’t help either as it can essentially substitute parents values for marketing values which is of course consumerism.

[jacob]

I have not read it. Because of the interwebs or "going to college elsewhere", younglings now have the option of accessing to a vastly larger number potential peers that goes way beyond the valley of residence that they grew up in. Some will choose their genetic or local relations ... but given how choosing a life path beyond family or religion in favor of ideas, success, or like-identity is now also an option, some will use whatever personal freedom they have to choose differently. This in turn is what drains parental influence. It may not be great for the parents hoping to create mini-mes ... but it might be good for whatever kids didn't fit into traditional conformity.

[Western Red Cedar]

This in turn is what drains parental influence. It may not be great for the parents hoping to create mini-mes ... but it might be good for whatever kids didn't fit into traditional conformity.

I think Mate's argument or concern* is that pre-adolescents and adolescents are increasingly turning to their peers rather than their parents for emotional connection and support. This always existed to an extent, but in modern industrial societies parents tend to be preoccupied with work/status/stress/basic needs or their own underlying psychological issues so they don't have the ability or capacity to provide the support and connection necessary for developing children. Unfortunately, peers aren't always the best source of emotional support as they don't have the benefit of wisdom and lived experience to process issues facing them or their friends.

The problem is exacerbated with some malignant information on the internet spread among friends, and soon you have large groups elementary-aged boys openly displaying misogynistic behavior towards female teachers.

*I'm basing this off his book They Myth of Normal, which builds upon his previous work. I haven't read Hold Onto Your Kids.

[chenda]

The problem is exacerbated with some malignant information on the internet spread among friends, and soon you have large groups elementary-aged boys openly displaying misogynistic behavior towards female teachers.

I knew someone who taught in a secondary school in a deprived area where as you can imagine there was plenty of that sort of thing and other problems. Interestingly she found the best place to send the worse male trouble makers on their work experience was a male dominated place like a mechanics or builders yard. Needless to say the guys who worked there weren't going to take any shit from some cocky 15 year old, and they knew it, and would often come back to school with a much better attitude.

[Western Red Cedar]

@Chenda - It takes a village . The anecdote I mentioned is something UK school districts were recently dealing with as the result of the influence of a popular YouTuber.

[scottindenver]

That's really interesting observation about sending worst mail trouble makers to mechanics and construction to help ground them a bit. Also occurred to me these are trades that get looked down upon by upper classes. I recall similar experiences in that when I was growing up I learned the most from older guys who worked in trades or worked with actual things as opposed to office workers or professors. I distinctly remember working with one guy who fixed farm equipment for just one day but for some reason just that one day helped ground me a bit when I was in my late teens. I didn't know the guy at all, just went there with a friend.

[Frita]

I think Mate's argument or concern* is that pre-adolescents and adolescents are increasingly turning to their peers rather than their parents for emotional connection and support.

The observation that Mate made was that young people are no longer exposed to people of all ages and don’t have the opportunity to develop close supportive relationships with folks who may have the time. Through normalization, the shift occurred.

For example, I grew up in a place where most people had 6 to 8 kids, often with births spread out over 20 years. If I was playing with a friend who was a middle child, I would hang out and engage with younger and older kids, who’d provide support. It was common to have at least one grandparent living at home too. There was a responsible adult around. We’d have multi-family potlucks, work parties, etc. Everyone participated and engaged. It was by no means perfect; however, there was less isolation and better social skills.

[scottindenver]

Someone recommended reading Born to Buy by Juliet Schor. Thank you, it covers a lot on the mass consumerism being promoted in schools and marketing towards kids. I have started to realize how its everywhere.

[Veronica]

That's really interesting observation about sending worst mail trouble makers to mechanics and construction to help ground them a bit. Also occurred to me these are trades that get looked down upon by upper classes. I recall similar experiences in that when I was growing up I learned the most from older guys who worked in trades or worked with actual things as opposed to office workers or professors. I distinctly remember working with one guy who fixed farm equipment for just one day but for some reason just that one day helped ground me a bit when I was in my late teens. I didn't know the guy at all, just went there with a friend.

A couple years ago I read "The vanish american adult", which is basically just a memoir by Ben Sasse, a senator from Nebraska.
In it, he specifically mentioned that one of the ways he tried to ground his kids was by shipping them off to help friends with manual labor type of activities. Detasseling corn, or staying for a week or two doing day to day chores at a family friends cattle ranch.

I think it's a really wise move, especially when you consider that they would be very unlikely to get exposure to these mundane activities as the children of a state senator, and college professor. Unless you go out of your way to cultivate these experiences, you run a real risk of ivory tower upbringing that keeps you distanced from the very population you claim to represent.

[zbigi]

@Veronica
My parents did that to me once or twice, and it was enough to instill in me, at a young age, how boring the repetitive, low-paid labor can be. I think it had a positive effect on me.

[jennypenny]

The problem with Sasse's example -- evidenced by zbigi's comment -- is that his kids won't learn that there's value in labor or that one should have respect for laborers. Sasse's kids will learn that hard labor sucks and they should do all they can in life to avoid being a laborer. I would think a better example would be if Sasse did manual labor in front of them or with them occasionally. Some families do mission trips together where hard labor is part of the deal. Others regularly work on habitat projects or the like.

Something about urbanites sending their offspring on mental field trips to working class areas rubs me the wrong way. To raise a 'wise' kid (the point of the thread), they need to have experiences that teach them that people are more alike than different, laborers should be appreciated, and that all work should be valued (the hard work you dread most of all).

[Frita]

+1 The “dude ranch” approach rubs me the wrong way too. Even if Sasse participates with the kids, the up-down mentality would be transmitted, though it could be a positive shift.

[Jim]

My parents did that to me once or twice, and it was enough to instill in me, at a young age, how boring the repetitive, low-paid labor can be. I think it had a positive effect on me.

How different could that lesson have been if they exposed you to a different variety of labor? Why not offer the carrot instead of the stick when it comes to labor? Why show your kids the salt mine when you could have them spend time with an accomplished and satsified crafstman or a union laborer who is well compensated?

Sasse's kids will learn that hard labor sucks and they should do all they can in life to avoid being a laborer. I would think a better example would be if Sasse did manual labor in front of them or with them occasionally. Some families do mission trips together where hard labor is part of the deal. Others regularly work on habitat projects or the like.

I'd love to hear was the Sasse kids have to say about that. I spent much of my teenage years around blue collar job sites and shops. I think that whether or not an individual kid develops a respect for the trades and manual labor, or an aversion to it has more to do with their personality and temperament. For some kids it will be a lifesaver, for others it's a misery. The takeaway was mentioned previously, exposure across diverse fields and perspectives is probably good for developing children and adolescents. The other factor is that the person chaperoning your kid through the workday will color their experience. Are they a disgruntled electrician with a drinking problem or an eclectic mechanic who restores classic vehicles in an off grid shop powered by a solar/wind fed battery bank? Is he a fabricator in his 30's living in his shop, but about to retire to Bill Plotkin adventures for the rest of his life? A retired NPR host become buddhist chaplain living in an off grid cabin on a permaculture site? Maybe they're a crew manager for tru green? A union lineman who owned 5 properties by the time he turned 35? I met or worked with all these people and more and boy did they have different offerings.

So I'm a little surprised no one has brought up mentorship. Rather than focusing on the tug of war between parents and their childrens peers, introduce your kid to a mentor who they like, that you trust to keep them out of harms way and impart knowledge to. Most of my time as a kid was spent under the mentorship of a brilliant adult who was older than both my parents. I certainly learned more from my mentor than I could have from a high school curriculum, though mileage may vary. It seems like in the US we don't have much room for mentorship because we're driving kids from ballet class to piano lessons after school and them back home to finish their homework so they are ready for tomorrows sitting marathon. Exposure is good, but immersion is also really important for a kid to develop a sense of belonging and committed participation. So if you're an interesting eclectic adult person with some free time (target audience hERE) consider the benefit of raising other people's kids with wisdom.

I think Jacob is right to point out that adolescents are essentially (usually incompetent) adults. They don't need mom and dad as much as they used to, and aren't looking to them like they were in the early years. They're looking outward, so rather than try to pull them back in, participate in their outward leanings and steer them towards good mentors and facilitate their journey towards the outer world.

Mentorship aside, an experience that had as influential an impact as the trades, was volunteering to do relief work post hurriane Katrina when I was about 19. The exposure to calamity was an emotional wake up call that put all my own "issues" and gripes in perspective, in a way manual labor alone never could have. Even when I was young I was very empathetic towards the less well to do, but the experience of wholesale destruction really changed my world in a way that a simple weeks long trip to a disenfranchised nor impoversihed community would not have done. The takeaways were diverse and unrolled for me throughout my 20s and until today. I think that experience had more in common with the family going on mission trips, except it wasn't colored with any religious doctrine. I imagine that some people come by this serving in the military. Volunteer Fire/EMS, volunteering in a soup kitchen, or any kind of local community involvement is a great way for young people to get exposure to that, if they're so inclined. Working for the disenfranchised is rewarding in a way that earning money cannot replicate.

Something about urbanites sending their offspring on mental field trips to working class areas rubs me the wrong way. To raise a 'wise' kid (the point of the thread), they need to have experiences that teach them that people are more alike than different, laborers should be appreciated, and that all work should be valued (the hard work you dread most of all).

It doens't need to look like that at all. I grew up with a trust fund kid, very affluent, who I earned lots of sweat equity with and who works as a welder fabricator now. If he hadn't had the exposure to the "misery" of hard labor, he never would've found himself. My misery is sitting in an air conditioned office or school building for an 8 hour day. Likewise, I'm sure there are kids in the trenches that would be happy pushing papers, but I don't ascribe to the idea that one of these ways of being is inherently lesser than. People are alike in some ways and different in others and wisdom is about appreciating both.

[zbigi]

How different could that lesson have been if they exposed you to a different variety of labor? Why not offer the carrot instead of the stick when it comes to labor? Why show your kids the salt mine when you could have them spend time with an accomplished and satsified crafstman or a union laborer who is well compensated?

I doubt they knew any accomplished/satisfied/well compensated (any of the three) crasftmans or laborers. In a poor country, such as Poland just after collapse of communism, going white collar is pretty much your best bet to job satisfaction, and everybody else's jobs pretty much mostly suck. Only in very wealthy countries, the median job can actually be kinda ok, and Poland definitely wasn't at at level back in the nineties. So, I think my parents wanted to steer me towards what they thought was best for me.

[fiby41]

Respect is better than fear, unless respect is caused by fear, then they are equal.
Love is better than respect, unless the love is out of respect, then they are equal.

Attention and understanding of children is short so wisdom is woven into fables and stories.
Aesop's fables, Mahābhārata and Pañcatantra come to mind.

Now, wisdom could be subjective. But the cultivation of wisdom and accumulation of wealth are not opposite to each other:

King Nahusha, having done many wicked acts in a state of poverty,
cried fie on that state and said that poverty is for recluses.
Making no provision for the morrow is a practice that suits Rishis.
That, however, which has been called the religion of royalty depends entirely on wealth.
One who robs another of wealth, robs him of his religion as well.
Who amongst us, therefore, would forgive an act of spoliation that is practised on us?
It is seen that a poor man, even when he stands near, is accused falsely.
Poverty is a state of sinfulness. It behoveth thee not to applaud poverty.
The man that is fallen, grieveth, as also he that is poor.
I do not see the difference between a fallen man and a poor man.
All kinds of meritorious acts flow from the possession of great wealth like a mountain.
From wealth spring all religious acts, all pleasures, and heaven itself!
Without wealth, a man cannot find the very means of sustaining his life.
The acts of a person who, possessed of little intelligence, suffers himself to be divested of wealth,
are all dried up like shallow streams in the summer season. He that has wealth has friends.
He that has wealth has kinsmen. He that has wealth is regarded as a true man in the world.
He that has wealth is regarded as a learned man.
If a person who hath no wealth desires to achieve a particular purpose, he meets with failure.
Wealth brings about accessions of wealth, like domesticated elephants help capture wild elephants.
Religious acts, pleasures, joy, courage, wrath, learning, and sense of dignity, all these proceed from wealth!
From wealth one acquires family honour. From wealth, one's religious merit increases.
He that is without wealth hath neither this world, nor the next!
The man that hath no wealth succeeds not in performing religious acts,
for these latter spring from wealth, like rivers from a mountain.
He that is lean in respect of his possession of steeds and kine and guests,
is truly lean and not he whose limbs alone are so.

~Arjuna speaking to his eldest brother in the 12th book: Shanti Parva (lit. Epoch of Peace) section 8 of the Mahābhārata.

[ertyu]

https://skunkledger.substack.com/p/escaping-high-school