V02 Max Challenge

[Scott 2]

Glad to see you guys making continued progress.

I stalled out over the past month. I fell into a pattern of biking too far, aggravating a knee/foot/ankle, then missing a week of training. Repeat. The upside is I had some fun 30-40 mile rides, including a couple with my Dad. But v02 max is plateaued around 46.

I have a 5k charity run towards the end of September, so I started re-prioritizing trail runs. Very basic - run for about an hour, 3 times per week. Soon I'll make one of them progressively faster. Recently, I took the insoles out of my Xero shoes. So I'm a little closer to barefoot as well.

I've found some value in nuun electrolyte tablets. If I throw one into my water, right after a cardio session, recovery seems better. I got a bulk deal, so this was a cheap way to try the idea. I might eventually mix my own.

I am loosely contemplating running a 9.5 mile loop in the fall. Depending where my jaw surgery schedule lands, I may try a 3 month winter training group. It'd be my first time regularly running with a pack. And since it's both cold and early, there's a decent barrier to entry. They main downside, is they are training for a half marathon. That's further than I'm interested in running. But it could be worth the social experience.

I dunno if any of that will increase my v02 max. I suspect I've reached a point where showing up isn't enough. And thus far, I keep getting distracted from any targeted v02 max work. I'm very content enjoying my time on the trail.

[Slevin]

I've found some value in nuun electrolyte tablets. If I throw one into my water, right after a cardio session, recovery seems better. I got a bulk deal, so this was a cheap way to try the idea. I might eventually mix my own.

My basic understanding is that you essentially just want to mix simple stuff everyone has around the house:

1L water
1/2 tsp salt (any)
2 tbsp sugar

And then for bonus points add some potassium, but I’ve never found the above formula lacking enough to buy more random stuff.

This is like super well known info that has been around for a long time. I don’t know why this isn’t just common knowledge everybody has on the best way to rehydrate.

[jacob]

I don’t know why this isn’t just common knowledge everybody has on the best way to rehydrate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YZnORoAWkA

[mathiverse]

In at least one country in Sub-Saharan Africa, they teach kids that formula for oral rehydration solution in schools! My friend told me that he would always make it for himself after he was sick. In their case, it's more frequently about recovering after diarrhea or similar dehydrating illness than recovering after exercise. But, as you point out, it works for both cases.

[Scott 2]

The Nuun tablets are fruit flavored and make your water fizzy. Kind of fun. Coconut water is better, but I save that for long bike rides.

I was surprised it matters on the shorter workouts. I figured my body would sort everything out over the next day. But I definitely feel a difference.

[C40]

On the longer rides you would benefit from carbohydrate intake and perhaps salt also.

A month or two ago I started adding sugar and salt to my water bottles. About once a week I make up make small zip lock bags with 30-50grams of sugar and about 2 grams of salt. If riding at a pretty high exertion, I aim for drinking two bottles per hour (so 60-100grams sugar and 4 grams sallt). I start with two bottles, and carry packets, which I add to water when I refill my bottles. This has a noticeable improvement on longer rides, and a pretty significant improvement on how I feel immediately after rides - both in terms of how drained I am for a similar effort - and that I don't feel overly hungry and needing to make up for a large caloric deficit

Most industrialized products have too little salt.. and the sugars they use are not as good as normal cane sugar

[Scott 2]

I'll have to try the DIY solution. It seems like a lot of sugar, but maybe I'm reaching the time for it.

[jacob]

In defense of Brawndo, I find it to be more of a "morale booster" than sugary salt water. For 2000kcal+ events, a sugary cola near the end usually works wonders for me.

[Slevin]

I'll have to try the DIY solution. It seems like a lot of sugar, but maybe I'm reaching the time for it.

The sugar increases fluid uptake. That’s why it is there. You can go read the research on its creation, it was kinda a really big deal in human history and everyone thought it was kinda weird that you need to add so much sugar. But that’s what it is, and you can also point to how b.s. the other stuff is by not upkeeping the ratios laid out here (which are the ones that maximize fluid uptake).

@mathiverse I’m glad it’s being taught in the places where people probably need it more than here (since they have less access to healthcare). I just also wish it was being taught here; I can’t imagine what the total spent on sports drinks is over the lifetime of having kids.

@jacob ….. I think I’m the guy laughing about someone wanting to drink water in this situation.

[Smashter]

You can go read the research on its creation, it was kinda a really big deal in human history and everyone thought it was kinda weird that you need to add so much sugar.

This is a great article about the discovery of oral rehydration therapy and how it saved millions of lives. I'd never heard of all this until recently.

I found it fascinating how some of the early studies with promising results (published in The Lancet!) were ignored, in part because we didn't yet know that glucose helps us absorb more salt and water. As the author of the piece put it, "Without a solid biological underpinning, scientific advances can be overlooked or forgotten altogether."

Seems like there's a general lesson here in not letting a lack of an understanding of how something works stop you from just doing the thing that works.

[jacob]

Seems like there's a general lesson here in not letting a lack of an understanding of how something works stop you from just doing the thing that works.

As far as I understand (ha!), the Roman Empire never had much of a scientific tradition. It's completely possible to engineer technology without having a [mathematical] theory for why something works. It's just since Bacon or Newton that STEM has gotten so used to science leading engineering that it's practically taken for granted.

[Scott 2]

Did my first "fast" 5k run in two months:



The 28:15 is about 45 seconds slower than my prior 5k training PR. I will repeat this once a week until a race, near the end of September.

This was the first time I've run 5k on pavement, it was hot, and I wasn't well recovered. So I'm less mad about performance than one might expect.

At this point, I'd be happy to break 27 minutes at the race. Playing bikes really distracted me from significant run progress. But a year older and ten percent faster than my last race, would be enough for me.


I did get to try 8 different bikes at the Trek store yesterday. That was a good time. It also highlighted I'm pedaling too slow. Specifically, my complaints about the high gear on 1x drive trains. It's too darn low. The bike guys recommended switching to a cadence of 85rpm, to lower injury risk and improve efficiency. Maybe they're just trying to sell bikes. But I keep hurting myself, so I'm going to explore it.

[shaz]

@Scott 2 once you get used to it, the higher cadence is much more efficient, plus easier on your knees. Lance Armstrong's coach used to tell his riders to maintain at least 120rpm and if you watch the pros you will see almost all of them maintain over 100. It might take a while to train your nervous system to be comfortable at the higher cadence.

[Scott 2]

Easier on the knees is exactly what I want.

I tried 90rpm on the gym's exercise bike today. It was immediately clear - I've been following this advice on foot. Trail runners encourage 180 steps per minute, to minimize ground contact time and reduce over striding. That's the exact same rhythm. I'm hopeful I can bring it to the bike quickly. My biggest constraint might be issues with indexing on my older bike. It needs a new rear derailleur and so has "good" and "bad" gears.

I don't think it's necessary, but I've been eying a cadence monitor. $35 and it would display on my Garmin. I'm going to see how quickly I can approximate the feel first. I know on foot, the cadence data was useful for all of about 3 workouts.

[shaz]

@Scott 2 you can use the "bad" gears as a training opportunity - shift to the next easier gear and increase your cadence to maintain speed. Focus on trying to pedal smoothly without your hips/seat bouncing around at the higher cadence. It might help to picture scraping mud off the bottom of your foot through the bottom of each pedal stroke. This is the part of the pedal stroke where riders' mechanics most often fall apart. Spinning up should improve your pedaling mechanics in general. I regularly spin up over 200rpm just to stay in practice.

[jacob]

@Scott 2 once you get used to it, the higher cadence is much more efficient, plus easier on your knees.

It's more complicated than that.

Low cadence is more efficient in terms of cardiovascular load and energy usage. It puts more force on the knees, joints, and muscles though. Also the muscles don't generate the maximum amount of power (force integrated over time) at low cadence. (If you had the choice of moving 100kg for ten meters, it would be faster to split it up and move maybe 20kg five times rather than slowly pushing all 100kg at once.)

High cadence is the other way around. Less energy efficient, higher cardio-load, less wear and tear on the muscles and joints, and also more power. This is why nearly all racers use high cadence. For a long distance slow-poker, like touring, lower cadence is not a bad idea though.

[shaz]

@jacob when you pedal at high (not the highest) cadence you generally will utilize fat more as an energy source; when you go the same speed at low cadence you generally will utilize glycogen more as an energy source. The typical human will deplete their glycogen stores much more quickly than they will deplete their fat stores. One of the reasons racers use high cadence is to conserve their glycogen stores for high-intensity efforts. So yes, it is more complicated than just saying "more efficient" but in addition to the physics of it, there is also the question of metabolic utilization. I haven't seen any studies (wasn't looking for them) of the most efficient cadence for touring riders but I think it is unlikely very low cadence would serve them well.

Maximum power typically is found somewhere between the highest and lowest cadence.

[Scott 2]

Olympic caliber cycling expertise, directed at me huffing away on a 20 year old hybrid, complaining about achey middle aged knees. I love it.

For what it's worth, smashing my pedals like a meathead hasn't worked, and I've got cardio to spare. My dad also just posted a 2h ride at 14.4mph, which is about 2mph above my typical pace.

So I gotta give it a try. Won't he be surprised, when I show up with superior hydration, spinning away.

[jacob]

Olympic caliber cycling expertise, ...

Well, to be fair, it's more like "enthusiastic amateur" level advice. The concern for joints becomes ever more important the older you get/the more unused yours are. The sudden popularity of pickleball has been quite expensive in terms of health care costs.

[theanimal]

Well, to be fair, it's more like "enthusiastic amateur" level advice.

@Shaz used to coach/was involved with the US Olympic cycling team.