How do ERE men attract women?

[7Wannabe5]

@I(E)reland:

What are they looking for? I certainly may be wrong, but I'm not observing much variation from the general population in terms of filter or strategy.. Consider a thought experiment in which all of the forum members and their current partners actually came together to form a village, then all of the forum members died or were sucked up into an alien spacecraft, leaving behind their partners. How would the left-behind group vary from the general population and/or the forum population? I would also note for the record that as far as I know there has only been one romantic partnership formed between forum members in the many years I have participated in this group. So, it seems like a "group"* of INTJs left to themselves would be unlikely to repopulate the planet.

*INTJs alone together might not even be capable of forming what would objectively be recognized as a "social group" in "real life." Dunno.

[Jin+Guice]

Most men are unattractive no matter how much they work out or style their hair.

@Chenda reversed his stance on this down thread, but I wanted to say that I think this is totally untrue. Almost any dude can become physically attractive.

You don't need to attract the masses, just those lucky few with whom you are most likely to better align mutually. Being honest/sincere is the best recipe. You don't need to say everything out loud/explicitly though, just give out the right signs and be yourself attentive, receptive, empathetic, listening.

This is true if your goal is long-term commitment. I think the majority of men suffer from a lack of short-term social skills and long-term emotional skills. Not hiding who you "truly are" requires a large amount of self-knowledge that will ultimately improve every aspect of your life. It is however a relatively hard skill to develop that requires constant vigilance and self-reflection.

There are other easier social and emotional skills to develop concurrently though.

I also agree with what you said about the "magical other."

I think that many or most older females if they rationally considered their options, as opposed to seeking the conventionally defined path of highest validation, would be less inclined towards marriage or similar commitment.

Yes, I think the socially conventional path is set up such that you deny your own market power. I.e. a woman who is willing to be relatively slutty and non-comital yields a lot of market power and a dude who is looking mostly for committed relationships also yields a lot of power*. However, both parties are discouraged from pursuing the path in which they could yield their power (which also creates the power structure).

*Unfortunately for dudes the script is set up s.t. one generally needs to make it through the short-term seduction stage to get to the relationship stage. Much to the chagrin of all those nice guys out there, this requires being able to make it through the femme power stage and not signaling that you want a relationship before social convention dictates.

Celibacy is the new freedom.

Loudly declaring celibacy is the great pick-up line ever invented. Enjoy your freedom while it lasts!

Also, it has been my experience with internet dating in mid-life that it is actually more likely that somebody will try to corner me into being his GF very quickly, than that somebody will only want to hook up with me. In fact, it is often the guy who will set a slow pace on sexually interacting, because he doesn't want to "burn out" the possibility for more

Tucking this bit of info into my brain for middle-age.

However, I would note for the benefit of the lonely young men of the forum, when I was young, my peer group contained many quite attractive young women who were interested in sex, but were too shy to directly approach boys in whom they were interested. Somebody has to man up, and it most likely ain't gonna be her.

Yes, this is almost always true and where I think most men actually suffer. Which is why I recommend learning the social script of dating and then working on social skills, including how to approach women in a way they like.

o you have this phenomenon where the most conventionally attractive people on the outside are actually the worst and shittiest people on the inside. If you are the one attractive person that is not a douche, regardless of your gender, you'll blow the competition out of the water.

I don't think this is true. Also I think, on average, women/ femme ppl care less about looks than men/ masc ppl (which is not to say they don't care about looks). The narcissist/ douches I know do quite well. It's the shy attractive dudes who don't.

my behavior is more analogous to the sort of jolly guy who puts on a Hawaiian print shirt, sucks in his gut a bit, smiles at himself in the mirror, and then just goes for it. Which, is actually not a half bad tactic.

This is a great tactic! It is THE tactic!

[chenda]

@Chenda reversed his stance on this down thread, but I wanted to say that I think this is totally untrue.

Her's but I think on reflection it is only true on tinder etc. which as someone else mentioned are not reflective of the real world.

[Ego]

Yes, we all strive to maintain meaning and coherence in our narrative, and we all, in less reflective mode, think and behave in ways most likely to protect our own egos. For instance, it may serve your narrative to defend the conventional institution of marriage against those who are communicating that it is becoming less relevant for many humans. Dunno.

Oh, I agree with you. Our culture is definitely making marriage less relevant for certain segments of society. No argument there.

The thing I find fascinating is HOW it is happening. Years ago, the people I knew who avoided long-term relationships into adulthood were heavier than average users of recreational coping mechanisms. Today, the number of people avoiding long-term relationships has exploded in tandem with the boom in prescription-strength, physician-assisted psychotropic copium.

We are biased to look at the world through the lens of the doer and consequently we avoid looking from the opposite perspective.
What should someone be doing to (attract women)?
What should someone refrain from doing to (attract women)?

[7Wannabe5]

. a woman who is willing to be relatively slutty and non-comital yields a lot of market power and a dude who is looking mostly for committed relationships also yields a lot of power*

Once again, I will note that this is somewhat less true among older adults, inclusive of females who are past their child-bearing years. Oftentimes older men are looking for full-time companionate relationships, whereas the women are more likely to be done with all that. Often this is because women have better developed social networks outside of primary sexual relationships.

*Unfortunately for dudes the script is set up s.t. one generally needs to make it through the short-term seduction stage to get to the relationship stage. Much to the chagrin of all those nice guys out there, this requires being able to make it through the femme power stage and not signaling that you want a relationship before social convention dictates.

Men also need the short-term seduction skills in order to continue to have hawt sex when in committed long-term relationship. There's generally a strict limit to how long a woman will vibe sexually compliant while in pursuit of other goals. Exception to this rule would be any guy who married a woman who was in assertive pursuit of him, but this situation may also have its limits given the overall higher sexual market value of females sans the need for assertiveness.

Loudly declaring celibacy is the great pick-up line ever invented. Enjoy your freedom while it lasts!

Yeah, I historically deserve to be scoffed at for making such a declaration, but menopause is a new territory. It has reduced my sexual background chatter in the same way that Ozempic is now reducing the food background chatter for many overweight people.

This is a great tactic! It is THE tactic!

Well, we might be in agreement on this due to our similar personality typing

The thing I find fascinating is HOW it is happening.

I think there are many contributing factors. Changes in the structure of social and dating networks. Changes in the definition or assigned purpose for marriage. Changes in economic opportunity field. Changes in gender roles and relationships. etc. etc.

Generally, I think fewer people are marrying in our culture because it has become more difficult to get married and also much easier to not get married. I'm in favor of making it easier for the people who do want to get married to do that AND for the people who don't want to get married to do that too.

What should someone refrain from doing to (attract women)?

Unfortunately, this list would be extremely long, and I don't have time to compose at the moment.

[Ego]

@7W, your comment was about WHY it is happening, which I largely agree. I am talking about HOW it is happening.

The WEIRD petri dish in which I reside is full of the coping mechanisms of drink, drugs and psychotropic medications that make long-term singledom tolerable.

Speaking to WHY in a broader context... Socially atomized, insecure, lonely, afraid people are the most manipulable. This is not by accident.

Required reading: http://www.whale.to/b/bernays.pdf

THE conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.

We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society

Bernays then goes on to explain how it is done.

[chenda]

Joseph Goebbels was a huge fan of Bernays, despite Bernays being a Jew. Goebbels sent him fan mail and asked him to autograph his books. Nazi propaganda was built on Bernays's methods.

[Jin+Guice]

@chenda: Sorry for the misgendering! I think there may be a disparity in what we are talking about. The average man I encounter in meat lyfe or on the internet is not attractive. My assertion is that they possess the potential to become attractive.

@7w5: I should caveat that my advice is a framework I've cobbled together from lived experience, talking to hundreds of people and some books I've read. It's far from exhaustive, and you've pointed out a gaping whole, namely that almost every person I've interacted with is under 50 years old.

Men also need the short-term seduction skills in order to continue to have hawt sex when in committed long-term relationship.

Yes, I agree and it's something most men aren't taught. I think the power for either gender fades as the relationship matures. It's really only in the early stage selecting dance where the power dynamic shifts back and forth rapidly.

Generally, I think fewer people are marrying in our culture because it has become more difficult to get married and also much easier to not get married.

I'm interested to see how this plays out. Applicable to ERE as well, as one veers off of the previously acceptable track, usually for one specific reason, one starts to see all of the unspoken and unrealized structure the acceptable track provides.


@Ego: Interesting reading. What are your theories on HOW it is happening? Is it merely a matter of more drugs?

[IlliniDave]

It's no wonder I'm wandering around starring in the-weird-bachelor-in-the-woods role. It all sounds pretty complex. I have this naive idea that one day in the normal wanderings of life I'll cross paths with a compatible girl and hit the 1/10,000 odds that all our midlife preexisting conditions (geography, family, social network, established lifestyle patterns, career, future ambitions, etc.) have enough wiggle room to line up in some way. Oh well.

[chenda]

@Jin+Guide - hehe don't worry my name seems to have become more unisex in recent years. I do agree, especially as lots of men let themselves go as they get older.

@IlliniDave - Keep on fishing

[Ego]

@Ego: Interesting reading. What are your theories on HOW it is happening? Is it merely a matter of more drugs?

Largely, yes. Look closely at the people around you. How many long-term singles are not using something, or a combination of things, to cope?

Psychotropic medications are socially acceptable. Drinking and recreational drugs in particular have become more acceptable but are still taboo for many. This social acceptability has massively expanded the pool of candidates for manipulation.

What percentage of the Laptop Class is prescription-medicated?

[chenda]

Largely, yes. Look closely at the people around you. How many long-term singles are not using something, or a combination of things, to cope?

Have you seen any data which supports this ? Because I would not be surprised if it's not significantly higher than the non-single population.

[Ego]

Have you seen any data which supports this ? Because I would not be surprised if it's not significantly higher than the non-single population.

Sure.

2018 Pre-pandemic
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... of%20women).

The percentage of men and women with psychotropic medication purchases was lowest for those married (3.6% of men, 5.4% of women), slightly higher for those cohabiting (4.1% of men, 6.1% of women) and approximately double for those living alone (8.3% of men, 10.5% of women).

For obvious reasons, during the pandemic, the overall numbers increase and this disparity got worse. Also, these numbers are skewed by the large percentage of our population in the US who has health insurance with high deductibles and cannot access psychotropics. Among the people who frequent a forum like this, they are much more likely to be medicated.

[chenda]

Interesting. I wonder though if there's evidence of a casual relationship between the two. Does being married or in a LTR serve to reduce the risk of mental illness or addictive behaviour?

[Ego]

Interesting. I wonder though if there's evidence of a casual relationship between the two. Does being married or in a LTR serve to reduce the risk of mental illness or addictive behaviour?

I believe the answer is probably chicken and egg.

We all experience strong feelings when something is wrong. Dampening those signals with various drugs and medications makes us less likely to actually feel the feelings and then use them as an impetus to change.

[Jin+Guice]

@Ego:

Just finished reading the short Propoganda book you posted. Very interesting. I've heard that dude referenced several times but never read the source material.

Based on that short book, it would seem the thesis is that the psychotropic drug industry is sponsoring a decrease in committed relationships in order to increase its market share? I'm not sure that is what you are proposing?


My own interpretation of the increase in psychotropic drugs (btw I am concurrently reading Plotkin) is that we live in an egocentric rather than soulcentric* society. As an egocentric society departs from the actual core needs of humans we are forced to find ways to cope with this. This also causes a sort of spinning effect where we individually and collectively search for solutions to a problem we can't see. Each solution is still in the context of egocentrism, so it creates its own problems. Numbing ourselves with legal and illegal drugs (which imo can be used for soulcentric purposes as well) is just currently in vogue.

*Sorry for the jargon, it's necessary to read Plotkin to understand what this refers to. The explanation is rather long, I'll try to shorthand it for the audience here by noting that the Plotkin book is the level 10 book on the ERE Wheaton chart.

Look closely at the people around you. How many long-term singles are not using something, or a combination of things, to cope?

What constitutes a longterm single? Someone who is unmarried? Someone not in a LTR? Someone who is devoid of romantic and sexual/ sensual contact?

I'm not sure if this is a highly rare exception or not, but stable long-term (5 year+) marriages are extremely rare among my immediate social group.

Drinking/ drug use is also permissable and encouraged amongst my social group, so it might be hard to sort out?

Based on my own personal skin robot experience, I am much more prone to drink heavily and use drugs when my gf (who is a stewardess, so gone 50% of the time) is gone than when she is home.

[DutchGirl]

We all experience strong feelings when something is wrong. Dampening those signals with various drugs and medications makes us less likely to actually feel the feelings and then use them as an impetus to change.

For me when I was really depressed it was using antidepressants which allowed me to get a higher level of energy compatible with changing my life - and then in turn that helped me feel much better. The depression made me very low energy and not being able to see a way out. The antidepressants gave some energy and hope. In my case after nine months or so I could quit the medication and have since been functioning relatively well due to also having changed some parts of my life during that time.

I do feel that some recreational drugs do make people lethargic and/or less capable of having the energy and brainpower to improve their lives. I admit that sometimes it could also be the other way around: people not having the energy or brainpower to improve their lives using recreational drugs to at least make life feel a little bit more tolerable.

[Jean]

@gin+juice
i'm confused by your post, you seem to tell ego that he's wrong, but then your experience pretty much comfirm his theory. Did i missread you.

[Jin+Guice]

@Jean: I'm mostly asking for more information and clarification.

The middle part where I talk about why I think people are relying on psychotropic drugs more has to do with my own guiding view on culture, which is not based on propaganda ideas I just found out about this morning. I'm not sure whether what I think is for, against or just next to what Ego said and the information he introduced.


My own experience is that lack of sexual/ sensual and romantic contact does increase my use of substances, but I'm not 100% sure what Ego's theory is, so not sure if that confirms it.

[Ego]

Based on that short book, it would seem the thesis is that the psychotropic drug industry is sponsoring a decrease in committed relationships in order to increase its market share? I'm not sure that is what you are proposing?

I believe there is a confluence of motivations. People are more easily made to be anxious, sad, angry, confused (insert negative emotion here) when they are alone. CNN, Facebook, NYTimes and all of the others promote stories that elicit those negative emotions as well as stories about the joy of self-partnership. The advertisers then pay to offer solutions. The means of control is a symbiotic system.

Years ago they were more nuanced and primarily offered retail therapy. Today in the United States they are far more blunt and in your face. This was highlighted not too long ago when Oprah interviewed Prince Harry and Meghan. The program was blocked in the UK so millions there installed VPNs to stream the North American broadcast. Afterward, their response to the 'dystopian' and 'post-apocalyptic' American pharma ads made as many headlines as the royal interview itself.

What constitutes a longterm single? Someone who is unmarried? Someone not in a LTR? Someone who is devoid of romantic and sexual/ sensual contact?

I believe it is directional. A continuum. Connecting with a soulmate is associated with positive emotions, and losing a soulmate with negative emotions. The direction one is moving along the continuum is the key in my mind.