How do ERE men attract women?

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Seppia
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by Seppia »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 12:21 pm
I don't think that there is a single member of this forum who has only evolved to the level of the purely mechanical or beastly.
I do sometimes have this impression. I may be wrong :)
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 12:21 pm
However, it is also the case that there are some humans who simply do not know how to fuck.
This happens (I think) when people marry "too early". I really believe it is healthy to discover the world a little bit before settling with one person.
Also, some people put little effort in nurturing the relationship in all its aspects - including sex.

Sex is not something that lives on an island*; a couple that is well connected intellectually, who cares about each other and genuinely tries to adapt and be on the listen of each other's needs will usually end up having terrific sex.

EDIT: I think I have written more about sex in two posts than in the rest of my 7 years on the forum - will now get back to sharing food recipes
:lol:


*and when it does - it usually doesn't last

DutchGirl
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by DutchGirl »

Some men do feel like they're god's gift to women... and they're just ... objectively not. By the way, the same is definitely true for some women (and non-binary persons etc); anybody can be too confident about their own qualities and then wonder why they're not more successful in their quest for sex and/or love.
It could help to consider what you could truly improve about yourself to become a more attractive partner. But even if you do manage to improve yourself (which can be pretty hard), there will be no guarantees that you will actually find someone.
An upside of improving yourself will be that life will be more fun anyway, even if the desired partner does not materialise.

chenda
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by chenda »

@Dutchgirl - very true.

As noted in the polyamory thread most women are not attracted to most men. 80% of women are only attracted to the top 20% of men, leaving 80% of men competing for the bottom 20% of women. Polygyny is the natural state for most mammals, including humans:

viewtopic.php?p=265299&hilit=attraction#p265299

As monogamy continues to decline a better strategy for many of the unattractive majority of men might be to embrace celibacy and find meaning in non-sexual relationships.
Last edited by chenda on Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ego
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by Ego »

chenda wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:21 pm
As noted in the polyamory thread most women are not attracted to most men. 80% of women are only attracted to the top 20% of men, leaving 80% of men competing for the bottom 20% of women. Polygyny is the natural state for most mammals, including humans:
*on tinder. Not in the real world.

chenda
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by chenda »

Ego wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:27 pm
*on tinder. Not in the real world.
Yes although increasingly the real world is reflecting this disparity. Monogamy has become largely redundant in modern society.

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Seppia
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by Seppia »

I'm starting to think I live on a different planet, but again I'm someone (were I single) who would consider being on Tinder as an immediate disqualifier from any potential interest.

chenda
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by chenda »

Seppia wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 5:01 pm
I'm starting to think I live on a different planet, but again I'm someone (were I single) who would consider being on Tinder as an immediate disqualifier from any potential interest.
Online dating has become the norm, or more specifically tinder/bumble swipe left or right based on one photo has become the norm. Which probably has contributed to the inequality as a man's potential good qualities other than his looks aren't obvious in a few photos.

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Ego
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by Ego »

@Seppia +1 to everything you've said.
chenda wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 5:30 pm
Online dating has become the norm, or more specifically tinder/bumble swipe left or right based on one photo has become the norm.
@Chenda, could be selection bias. Tinder is the norm among those who are still on the market. It is quite possible that those of us who think of tinder use as an automatic disqualifier pair up relatively quickly. The anti-tinder mindset may be a good indication that the person has at least some of the other characteristics necessary to pair-bond for life.

7Wannabe5
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

It doesn’t sound like you and your ex were a good fit. Just curious how long you knew each other and whether or not you did marriage counseling.
We knew each other for a a couple years before we started dating. Our friendship circles in college over-lapped, and we had part-time jobs at the same campus keg store. However, we were only dating for around 4 or 5 months before I got knocked up due to failure of the Today Sponge. We thought it would work, because we were good friends, and actually quite culturally compatible. I vaguely recall about 20 minutes of marriage counseling from the also-pregnant female Unitarian minister who officiated at our lovely wedding in the park, which included a ceremonial tree-planting, original poetry composed for the occasion, 6 very young bridesmaids singing and playing guitar and wearing dresses that were actually embroidered linen nightgowns. IOW, very naive Level Green. We literally vowed to "support each other's personal growth."

The sex itself, when we had it, was actually very good to great. He was quite attractive (Van Gogh-Jim Carroll-Shaun Evans type), sexy and artistic; the kind of lover who feels his way into you like he is finding a melody and a rhythm on an instrument. I didn't mean to imply that not having orgasms when we did have sex was the problem.The problem (from my perspective) was that he was extremely introverted, dark, brooding, withdrawn, critical, and semi-alcoholic, and I needed him to fulfill the role of paterfamilias to the standard set by my father, which I'm certain from his perspective was good enough reason to withdraw ever further. Thirteen years later, my father died, and I was hopelessly weeping in my grief, and I asked him to comfort me, and he couldn't do it. When we were processing towards our divorce, 6 years after that, he told me that he knew he was being the cruelest bastard on the planet in that moment, but all he could think was that if he gave me a hug that would be like agreeing to alter himself to be more like my father.

So, yes, we were not a great fit, and we were too young, and I'm not sure that either of us was very much "the marrying kind." He has remained pretty much alone since our divorce, and my second "marriage" failed for very different reasons.

@Ego:

Of course, you wouldn't pick somebody on Tinder. You would be over on Our Time or Silver Singles ;)

Seriously, it's not that different than the olden days of our youth. There are some dating apps that are more like showing up at church to meet somebody and there are other ones that are more like going to a disco. So, obviously, anybody looking for long-term serious is going to veer more towards the "churchy", however, as was also true in the previous century, just because you are in church on Sunday doesn't mean you weren't at the disco the night before. :lol:

ertyu
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by ertyu »

+1 to dating via app is the new normal. For shits and giggles, I downloaded a book on how to date, published 2023: "This is supposed to be fun - how to find joy in hooking up settling down" and what not else. It was in a "best nonfiction books of 2023" listicle somewhere. The listicle said it should be required reading, etcetera. I wondered what the young'uns are up to.

It was not even a question that one would date via app. The chapters are literally, "choosing an app" "writing your profile" "what to do in the initial chat" etc. Also, even though it's men who whine about being unsuccessful on apps the most, the book assumed that most people who would buy it and do the work described therein are women (I'm sure correctly - I bet those studies have been done by various marketing teams).

As I am very much uninterested in the type of partnership this thread seems to be discussing, I'll stop here. I only chimed in to say that in the author's mind, it was obvious and self-evident that dating equals hitting the apps. Author appears to be a younger millenial woman and calls herself a certified sex and dating coach.

zbigi
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by zbigi »

chenda wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:43 pm
Yes although increasingly the real world is reflecting this disparity. Monogamy has become largely redundant in modern society.
What do you mean by "redundant" here? I know plenty of monogamic couples.

zbigi
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by zbigi »

ertyu wrote:
Sat Jun 17, 2023 3:52 am
+1 to dating via app is the new normal. For shits and giggles, I downloaded a book on how to date, published 2023: "This is supposed to be fun - how to find joy in hooking up settling down" and what not else. It was in a "best nonfiction books of 2023" listicle somewhere. The listicle said it should be required reading, etcetera. I wondered what the young'uns are up to.

It was not even a question that one would date via app. The chapters are literally, "choosing an app" "writing your profile" "what to do in the initial chat" etc. Also, even though it's men who whine about being unsuccessful on apps the most, the book assumed that most people who would buy it and do the work described therein are women (I'm sure correctly - I bet those studies have been done by various marketing teams).
It's possible that the publisher studies shown that the kind of people who would buy such book are also the kind of people who are open to finding dates via apps, so the book was just tailored to them.

ertyu
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by ertyu »

Right, good point

chenda
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by chenda »

zbigi wrote:
Sat Jun 17, 2023 4:56 am
What do you mean by "redundant" here? I know plenty of monogamic couples.
Monogamy as distinct from serial monogamy. Redundant in the sense that ~ 60 years ago or so most people got paired up at a young age and remained married together, happily or unhappily. This was the norm before the widespread availability of contraception and women's mass entry to the workforce, which rendered the former model somewhat obsolete.

7Wannabe5
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Also, from the perspective of the 21st century female, marriage is not a great bet. Men, on average, are 15% happier when married, while women tend towards being just as happy when single. So, if you are a female, the odds that marriage will actually render you unhappier vs happier are pretty much 50/50. IMO, this is unlikely to change until more men learn how to be less grouchy.

I mean, I think men would grok this better if you asked them if they would like to throw a dart into a crowd of other men and then be made to share house space with some other man picked at random for the next 30 years. Usually when men are forced to live with each other in close quarters, it is in situations with strict rules and hierarchy in place, like the army or prep schools. But heterosexual females who wish to practice monogamy do not have the benefit of a drill sergeant on site. So, in the modern era, the sit-com stereotype of the bossy take-charge wife with the rather schlubby semi-agreeable husband prevails.

zbigi
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by zbigi »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Jun 17, 2023 6:37 am
Men, on average, are 15% happier when married, while women tend towards being just as happy when single
Does it include the men who were married, and then divorced? Or does it only include the man who are still currently married? If it's the latter, then this statistic does not say much about how much/less happier a man will be after he marries.

7Wannabe5
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@zbigi:

As usual, I am being a bit “Journal of Irreproducible” results attempt at humor with my extension of theory to statistics. However, it is the case that humans of both genders who identify as divorced are the least happy. But, feeling/being divorced is often just a transitory phase until you either find yourself married again or feel yourself to be single again. And all of these categories truly are changing over time in our society.

OTOH, since it is usually the case that it is women who file for divorce, if I was looking to get married again, I would try to find a widower (preferably with no children), because the keepers usually get kept. In fact, my polyamorous married lover’s wife thought I wanted to steal him, because he was such a keeper. Not true. I’m not good enough at physics to figure out how a 3 body problem might devolve as a two body problem, but my informed intuition is towards the pessimistic.

Henry
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by Henry »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Jun 17, 2023 6:37 am
Also, from the perspective of the 21st century female, marriage is not a great bet. Men, on average, are 15% happier when married, while women tend towards being just as happy when single.
Yes, but recent studies at The WTFSIGMI a.k.a. The Why the Fuck Should I Get Married Institute have determined that 21 century single men are on average 15% more miserable than 21 century single women so getting married for 21st century men is just a way for them to get even.

DutchGirl
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by DutchGirl »

I have also read that men on average are happier in marriage than women are in marriage, and this is a resource (with further references included).

And hey, this may not actually be true for you, and it's definitely not going to be true if you marry someone who isn't a suitable longterm partner for you.

7Wannabe5
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Re: How do ERE men attract women?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Henry wrote: so getting married for 21st century men is just a way for them to get even.
Yes, it does feel that way sometimes.

@DutchGirl:

That's why I keep saying that women need to open their eyes to the extent that they are getting ripped off when they agree to 50/50 financial relationships with men. As that article notes, the financial realm is the only upside for women from marriage or similar, even worse arrangements such as "forever girlfriend." IOW, in general economic terms where money and happiness can be interchanged as units, the worst deal a heterosexual woman can get is 50/50 relationship stuck on conventional relationship ladder at the level of "living together." And, I could argue that if/when children/family formation issues are put aside, polyamory (not polygyny!) is usually going to provide overall greatest benefit.

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