Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Where are you and where are you going?
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Slevin
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by Slevin »

TopHatFox wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 2:19 pm
@macg, so it's totally okay to just be an Implementation Specialist if I ultimately want to be a Software Engineer in ~1 year? Also, I've noticed that C#/.NET are huge. So many things were built on it. Gonna have to study for it like crazy.

The original offer was 70K/yr, I asked for 80K during the counter, but the COO said 70K/yr is good, cause it's an introductory role to learn the software for the company before deciding whether to specialize in data analysis, coding, or management. The job's also fully remote, and apparently fully remote roles earn a bit less on average. He did say we can review the salary after 6 months. All of this sound normal?
In the short term you are hopefully being paid to code, and double what you made doing CIS / so it is a win/ win for everyone. I think I made about 80k / year at 25 in software with a few years experience, which isn't that different. Take it for a win / an advance in your career and I think you should be excited to have a software role on the books that can always be leveraged into a better one.

As to the above conversation, this sounds like the normal "string you along and don't pay you what you are worth" doublespeak I'm used to hearing about from people getting mistreated in the industry. It isn't a full lie, it is a nice intro and foot in the door to the industry, and you should treat it as such, and give it exactly that much loyalty. But don't be expecting a salary bump in 6 months (again its possible you work for the actual guys who say what they mean, but I've heard the words many times and barely ever seen the follow though), and assume you are hopping to a new job in ~1-1.5 years (very normal for the industry) which will hopefully pay 30% more.

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

@Slevin, okay, I’ll go in cautiously and just learn as much as I can about software and its development. Worst case I have something to point at in a year to get the next thing. Best case, they have lots of dev roles available and I fill one of the spots. Either way, I’m earning above median wage with 0 commute. I’ll go ahead and sign the offer o:

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

I signed the offer. Woo hoo!

AN ODE TO 100% REMOTE WORK

Also still have some other interviews going on -- for a GIS dev job and two actual software engineer jobs -- and I'll go ahead and complete them, if anything to get more experience with technical interviews. One of the jobs requires me to go to the office 3 times a week, and it made me realize how important 100% fully remote work is. I'd either need to commute ONE HOUR each way if I get up or leave work at a reasonable time, get up super early and commute 30 minutes, or spend $1,500 on a room or studio to walk to work. I also can't just jump cities if the cost of living goes through the roof. Even assuming additional pay, it gets obliterated by the cost of living. Furthermore, all of that time spent commuting can instead be used on hobbies, contract coding work on the side, not being stressed, not destroying the car, etc.

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fiby41
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by fiby41 »

Congrats, are they going to train you or expect you to hit the ground running?

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

The company has been around since the late 90's, so thankfully there is some training, structure, etc. Will definitely lean more toward figure it out, though, as a lot of the technical problems the company solves haven't been solved yet, ever. Almost all of the staff have STEM undergrads + grads, so that's a good thing. A lot of them have international names too, except for the ones in the non-technical roles. I guess born & raised Americans don't tend to major in STEM?

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

On an unrelated note - I feel like Amherst screwed me of my desire to risk taking higher-level calculus and statistics classes by making the classes virtually impossible for mere (smart) mortals, but I'd like to get better at higher-level math as a hobby. Not sure if it'll have any real world benefits aside from using my brain. 8-) If TeamTreeHouse is really good for learning to code, what's a good online resource to study up on math from start to finish - maybe Khan Academy? I was thinking of starting aaaalll the way from pre-algebra, and ending up finishing Differential Equations or Abstract Math eventually.

ertyu
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by ertyu »

Coursera.

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

@Coursera - is that one good? I saw that they link to online degree programs too. If I wanted an MSc in Computer Science eventually, part-time and fully-online, are the offerings linked via Coursera below accredited/legit? It'd be way easier to get coding jobs over the years if I can say I have an MSc in CS, rather than an MSc in Geology with a focus on CS.

https://www.coursera.org/courses

Click the "Courses" and "Degrees" toggle boxes

---------

https://www.coursera.org/degrees/ms-com ... ce-boulder
https://www.coursera.org/degrees/mcit-penn
https://www.coursera.org/degrees/master ... cience-asu

^ for example, are these a scam, or legit?

7Wannabe5
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Math does not change nearly as much as other STEM fields. So, old textbooks from a library sale would work. Dover, a publisher of classic books that are no longer under copyright, has some great math titles for the serious self-scholar.

macg
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by macg »

TopHatFox wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 2:19 pm
@macg, so it's totally okay to just be an Implementation Specialist if I ultimately want to be a Software Engineer in ~1 year? Also, I've noticed that C#/.NET are huge. So many things were built on it. Gonna have to study for it like crazy.
In my experience it's just words. For the past 2 years my job title has been "Manager, Systems" - along with ~200 other people who do vastly different jobs. I'm a Cloud Admin/developer, and am not a manager in any way lol. So in my resume, I don't even use what my current company uses for my job title.

Others can speak to C#/.NET in current environments - I haven't had to use it (I slightly know both). But my "software engineer" experience is from tasks I have carved out in jobs for myself, I have never been in a job that was 100% software development.

TopHatFox wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 8:09 am
It'd be way easier to get coding jobs over the years if I can say I have an MSc in CS, rather than an MSc in Geology with a focus on CS.
Again, my experience - this hasn't mattered for me. I graduated with a Russian Studies degree, minor in CS (supposed to be a double major, didn't work out). No master's degree. After my first job in IT, my degree was purely for conversation and for laughs during interviews, all that mattered was the work I had done and the experience I had. And frankly now, if I were a manager (I have been in the past, but not currently), I wouldn't care about degrees at all - but that may be my personal bias in play. I 100% believe that at least for IT, everything you can learn in school you can learn online...

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

@macg - yeah, it's mostly for the recruiters to feel like I "fit" with their role ASAP. Hm, well, whether they're gonna screw me or not, I can just make the title whatever I want by adding an "& Software Engineer", and their Handbook says they pay for further education/certs (like, say, an online class a semester).

my company is pretty small and growing by comparison, so I can see them not lying too. If I were the COO, and my company is growing, I'd throw an employee that knows code, the subject matter (geology), and already knows the company products at the dev team, rather than a new coder that just knows code.

Salathor
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by Salathor »

Congratulations on your new role!

I'd try to avoid focus on whether future promises will come true. Assume they will if you put yourself out there and exceed expectations and make yourself visible and essential to your bosses (this last part is key). If they don't, that's okay too. You've got a good new job and a lot of experience. You can look for other work.

Try to avoid pre-loading this experience with negativity. You've got a great opportunity ahead of you!

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Viktor K
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by Viktor K »

I’d either:

A) try hard, meticulously record any tasks you do that add value to the company, ignore mental health and burnout. Use that in quarterly or monthly reviews to negotiate higher salary. Push/hope that they’re actually going to switch you to a coding role (sus). Continue applying and use any job offers for leverage and/or jump ship when you get the job you want.

Or B) quiet quit, do as little as possible, expect nothing in return and keep applying for coding jobs. Use the energy you save at work to study and apply. Accept an offer when it comes, and only put in two weeks notice once you’re sure the new job is what you want.

Option A got me 40k salary increase in two years (but it was a coding role). Option B doubled my salary for a year and gave me a new role with a $20k raise.

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

@Viktor K, reason why I didn't get a straight dev role is cause there wasn't one available to apply to, but there will likely be a new one available within 6 mo - 1 yr. Does that make a difference on the sus-o-meter?

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Viktor K
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by Viktor K »

I don’t believe anything a corporation says unless it’s “your position has been eliminated”. The company is for profits not the employee wellbeing or future.

But maybe. Assuming you expressed interest in the dev/engineer role, it would seem strange to hire you without an intent to move you to engineering because otherwise you would be a flight risk and it would make more sense to hire someone else specifically for the role you got hired for.

Even then, they will be moving a presumably proven employee, you, out of your current position and into engineering, which means they need to backfill your role when that happens (unless they intend to eliminate your position?).

A lot can change in 6-12 months.

I don’t see a downside to trying to not get fired for the next few months while leveraging any experience and continued studies/projects towards getting a new job.

But I am biased, and your own feelings, perceptions, and insights once you start working there can guide you better than I can.

The only other thing is if they do start giving you engineering tasks, that might increase workload with no additional compensation. I might have missed this but why do they need more software in 6-12 months?

take2
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by take2 »

My two cents, with the caveat that I don’t work in software/coding.

Congrats and I think it’s a great opportunity and you should throw yourself into it to learn as much as possible and boost your resume for the next role (either at the same place or elsewhere)

Personally I don’t think @Viktor’s Option B is ideal in the context of this being your first job in CS/CS adjacent. It’s definitely a viable strategy down the line, but you do need to learn and build up a resume first, esp in the context of #2 below.

Keep in mind two things:

1) Don’t take it for granted; you know firsthand how hard it is to get your foot in the door
2) Wherever you come from is going to characterise how you’re viewed. E.g. if you come from geology you’ll be viewed as a geologist, not a coder. If you can use this gig to your advantage to sell yourself as a coder then the next place will see you as that.

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

@ViktorK, true, but this isn't IBM or Meta, just a niche company w/ <100 employees. COO said it'd be a good role to start, cause I'll find out all the software and resources offered before actually working on them. The role is a mix of coding, data analysis, and report writing. The company is gonna create a new data analysis team, and build out more software projects. Dev team is busy as is and could use more devs.

@take2, yeah, and how hard it is to get a 100% remote job, especially with tech laying off literally tens of thousands of employees. That's also why I want to do one of those 100% fully online, accredited MSc's in computer science, a course a semester.

-----

I have 3 open technical interviews this Friday, so whatever I did on my resume and when talking to recruiters clearly worked. Will probably bomb them since I haven't ever done technical interviews, so a year of this non-technical role could help me get better at coding while getting paid. Finding a company that does coding + mining geology is pretty rare, also. I wish companies were actually loyal to their employees so that this wouldn't be a question. :c

I suppose this is basically akin to dating a new person. You're like "yeah, ok, we'll see," while doing good work yourself and contingency planning.

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

Woo hoo, first week of WFH job. So far, I like it; way better than any other job I've ever had. I’m so rich I’ve made $600 in two days studying about mines & tech <3

take2
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by take2 »

TopHatFox wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 2:24 pm
I’m so rich I’ve made $600 in two days studying about mines & tech <3
I remember that feeling. My bank account tripled with my first paycheck, and I couldn’t believe how much money they were giving me.

The feeling will fade but enjoy it while it lasts!!

TopHatFox
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Re: Fox's Journey: And Onto the Sunlight!

Post by TopHatFox »

@take2, yeah it's awesome, like I could literally go on a shopping spree at Harbor Freight. I'll only owe a few hundred in income taxes this year too, so I get to keep almost all of my income. :3

I think I figured it out with mostly having intellectual hobbies or hobbies with a reasonable one-time cost. For example, after work, I enjoy German lessons, programming lessons, or math lessons. Or during the weekends, I can go on a picnic, hiking, kayaking, etc. Total ongoing cost: $25/mo + weekend gas.

I was thinking that I'm not sure how ppl throw kids into this mix. They must really like it or see it as worth it. After work, I wanna play a video game in French or learn about woodworking. If one had kids, they'd have to work from 9-5, then work on their kids from 5-12, especially if homeschooling, which is almost required for success in today's highly competitive world. :oops:

----------

On another note, I think WFH is worth at least 30K. You work less cause less ppl ask you to do random things or distract you with inane conversation. You have more energy to work on your own stuff outside of work hours. There's no traffic or wear n' tear on your car, or grabbing lunch. You can do chores during lunch breaks. There's no dressing up in suits or having a nice car because office culture. Tech in a trade-like field is also way nicer than high-finance, a whole lot less political bullshit. I think if I were offered 100K to show up to an office even a few days a week (which I might be from one of the residual interviews), I'd take the 70K WFH job every time.

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