3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

[MBBboy]

I experienced something similar in undergrad, but it broke out along racial / wealth lines (looks the same given the correlation). I showed up to our business school and wanted to do accounting......because I was prioritizing getting a job. Then I observed that the class was basically all the Black and Hispanic students.....and the professors for these classes were the same.

Meanwhile, all the wealthier / white / Asian students were doing all the cooler, more interesting majors (won't name them because some of them are unique to our business school). One of them was known as the "major for future consultants".....which meant absolutely nothing to me at the time. None of us had ever heard of management consulting, but seemed like everyone else entered college gunning for these firms from Day 1.

"Luckily" for me, socializing with this group gave me a different perspective on education, and I left accounting and double majored in stuff I found more interesting. It didn't matter in the end because I ended up joining the military - so I was much better off enjoying my studies and leaning more into economics and international business issues than I would have been focusing on the tactical skills of accounting. This more general knowledge ended up being much more useful since I ended up in management consulting and eventually banking.

In the end, those kids (and their parents) were on to something with the value of a more generalized education. Then again, it was still business so there were still guardrails and it's not like they were off exploring the majors that commonly get made fun of being worthless

[ertyu]

Lastly, if you want my therapist/life coach/whatever's contact info, let me know, it might be helpful. It took me quite a long time to find someone that fits good with my background (western education, but didn't live in the west growing up, now doesn't really fit in culturally anywhere, etc...).

Do they do distance? I assume, since you recommend them, I was just asking.
In all honesty, what stops me is that a therapist's regular, non-insurance fee is approximately 200 dollars, and if I met them once a week, that's 800 dollars on therapy where ideally, my monthly expenses as a whole would be 500. That's one of the reasons why I do DIY EMDR and whatever other ill-advised bullshit. It is somewhat working; I do become saner over time.

Thanks everyone for contributing to this; it seems like this central issue, seeing myself as someone who has the right to choose his employment (or non-employment) according to money, and in general, how I think financial independence, choices, and self-realization are pipe dreams and "for other people," is something which is at the forefront of what my subconscious is chewing on now.

@zbigi, I think you're completely right on the meaning front. I had the same realization independently. I think part of why I feel this lack of meaning is precisely because my subconscious seems to be imprinted with the idea that FI/(E)RE is a pipe dream believing in which can only lead to ruination. So while consciously I aim to improve my life, grow as a person, etc., there is also this very powerful undertow which says letting go of salaryman employment will lead to annihilation and must not be done under any circumstance. So because of work, I don't have a life, and because I don't have a life, I don't have meaning. But I can't even have meaning the LivingaFI way, where you endure the grind and keep your eyes on the number in your savings account, and that number gives you comfort because "Some Day."

I guess the solution here is to consciously decide on how I want to make decisions but at the same time really be present with any fear or resistance that is coming up. I think I am screwing myself over to the extent that I suppress that fear. More and more I'm coming to the understanding that you are how you are, and being in denial of who you are or trying to suppress who you are doesn't solve anything and would lead to your neuroses running you anyway. Instead, I need to find a skillful way to acknowledge and be with these neuroses. Whether that would be through Focusing, or DIY EMDR, or "somatic meditation" (which seems to be Focusing re-packaged with a bunch of progressive relaxation/body scans and "woo" language "The Soma," "Earth Descent," whatever) -- I think the original focusing suits my temperament better -- I think all these practices ultimately try to get at the same thing, which is a skillful way of being with your shit.

Also, and I don't know what to make of this but I'm putting it down here for posterity, during one of my recent navel-gazings I realized that the way I live right now is optimized for a world that no longer exists. There was just an awareness of a structural shift, a mismatch -- the feeling that the world has changed fundamentally and structurally even if its meatspace structures seem the same. The world no longer has those structures which allow one to trust in the mundanity or working, saving, investing. I don't know what it is, my intuition was simply that it was no longer that. And so, many decisions that seem large and important when institutions are stable, such as where to work and how to direct one's career, are simply irrelevant, out of place.

I don't know what is in place in their stead. This might be getting a bit out there but my intuition is that fear only has a function if it gets you out of a dangerous situation into a safe one. And if the world has changed in such a way that what was safe no longer exists, well. The only thing left seems to be to let go and relax to the wave that carries you.

[zbigi]

In all honesty, what stops me is that a therapist's regular, non-insurance fee is approximately 200 dollars, and if I met them once a week, that's 800 dollars on therapy where ideally, my monthly expenses as a whole would be 500. That's one of the reasons why I do DIY EMDR and whatever other ill-advised bullshit. It is somewhat working; I do become saner over time.

My thoughts on therapy and therapists is that it's a minefield at best. I personally know some therapists and they don't seem smarter than your average college educated person. Also, they follow different "schools", meaning the field does not really have a holistic theory of how to help people and instead they just try out various ideas and models on you, at $200 per week. IMO, therapists are best for people with low self-awareness, as such people tend to have lots of low hanging fruits to pick - but, most INTx people will probably outhink and outanalyse the therapist, as they've essentially been analysing themselves their entire life already.

There was just an awareness of a structural shift, a mismatch -- the feeling that the world has changed fundamentally and structurally even if its meatspace structures seem the same. The world no longer has those structures which allow one to trust in the mundanity or working, saving, investing. I don't know what it is, my intuition was simply that it was no longer that.

It's similar for me. I currently have enough saved to sustain me, at current spending levels (averaged over the past 3 years) and at 0% real return, for the next 100 years. That is only theoretical safety though, as we can't really know how the world will look like in the next 10-20 years (and doubly so for me, as my country neighbors Russia). We're in an era where seismic shifts happen practically every decade or two. So, in practical terms, in spite of all the money, I still need to maintain access to some income stream as a backup. Which is according to ERE spirit I guess.

[loutfard]

most INTx people will probably outhink and outanalyse the therapist, as they've essentially been analysing themselves their entire life already.

This is usually a strength, but not always. There is such a thing as compulsive overanalysing. One might also develop blind spots out of reach of analysis. Think of some of the mental difficulties people with Asperger's (even if not in DSM-V anymore) bump into, or people with above average intelligence in general. Smart people are _more_ prone to mental issues.

I know I bumped into a few of these as a student. I'll repeat an example I might have given before elsewhere on this forum. My parents are not very financially literate. They are frugal and that's about it. As a student, I observed they had a considerable sum in a low yield savings account, leaving a considerable sum on the table compared to a safer bank. I told them, and they refused to do anything about it. That created sparks in my head, anger even. Why didn't they see that 1+1 was 2? The correct answer of course was it was their money and their decision. A stupid one, but theirs. It took me one or two expensive visits to a therapist to find that out. That was money really well-spent!

[ertyu]

I'm an IN- F. And I've literally spent my entire adult life learning how to be a therapist to myself. I say bring it on haha. I can even tell them what "schools" of therapy work well for me and what "schools" give me spiritual hives. Joke aside, if qualified help is available and affordable, I'd take advantage. So far, though, even though I've tried to pursue all venues for getting help that were available to me, I haven't encountered a therapist that was a good fit and actually helped me more than I was able to help myself, even if it took me a while.

@loutfard, I relate -- I think anyone who sees their loved ones "do it wrong" has the strong urge to shake them and go, "look! look what I've learned and I've seen, things can be so much better!!" (In my case it was about my family of origin's dysfunctional patterns of communication, not finances, but the point still stands).

And then you have to accept that you can't fix anything for anyone else; you cannot save people from themselves no matter how much you love them and you want that for them. I hear kids of addict parents go through the same thing too. At some point, you have to accept that no matter how much you love them, you can't fix it. You can only put on your own oxygen mask.

[Bankai]

In all honesty, what stops me is that a therapist's regular, non-insurance fee is approximately 200 dollars, and if I met them once a week, that's 800 dollars on therapy where ideally, my monthly expenses as a whole would be 500.

Why would you hire a US shrink for $200 if you can get one from your home country for one-tenth of this (or less)? Seems like a perfect opportunity for geoarbitrage.

[ertyu]

@Bankai, I've tried shrinks from my country and long story short, the quality isn't there. I'm from an underdeveloped/developing country which experiences severe brain drain (of which I am a part), and the sad truth is, anyone actually qualified an with a "western" mentality is likely to either be working abroad or to be priced as a luxury service aimed at the top socioeconomic layer.

The "western" mentality part is important. People can't take you further than they've been, and anyone who has not lived and worked abroad is not likely to have examined themselves or the cultural water they were born swimming in at any meaningful level of depth - and a bunch of my issues have to do with the fact that I'm "third culture."

I now live and work in yet another non-western country where the deal with mental health care is similar - shrinks are shameful and for crazy people; plus the cultural tradition and the training isn't there. And even if it was, there's the language barrier between me who operates in English and the local therapists who don't. The cultural clash there is likely to be strong, too, because this is a third country that's neither of the "wild wild east" nor of the "west." I think Crusader gets it and can probably speak to that, too - in addition to finding a good therapist, they need to also be able to deal with the intercultural aspect of it. I do want good affordable therapy but while as a DIY-er I'm almost certainly not progressing as fast as I'd probably be with qualified help, I'm probably still doing better than how I'd do with the therapy I actually have available.

Other expats I've spoken to use services like Better Help but in all honesty, I'm unwilling to wade through the cesspool people say it is just to find a good fit. Plus, therapists on Better Help etc. seem to come and go (as they use it to supplement their regular practice), so even if I were to find someone there's no guarantee they'll stick around in a meaningful way.

tl;dr: DIY is better in my case

[Crusader]

Do they do distance? I assume, since you recommend them, I was just asking.
In all honesty, what stops me is that a therapist's regular, non-insurance fee is approximately 200 dollars, and if I met them once a week, that's 800 dollars on therapy where ideally, my monthly expenses as a whole would be 500.

Yes, she does. And she charges way way less than that, because she is not actually a certified therapist. I guess that technically makes her a "life coach", but I think she finished some Gabor Mate certification. I think that she has a knack for therapy and she just wanted to get some training so that she can officially say that she has some kind of a certificate. Anyway, you can give her a try and see if she works for you. I've seen many therapists in my life and I feel like a lot of them have some kind of a role in your life at some point and it doesn't necessarily have to last forever. It just naturally comes to a conclusion at some point.

I don't think that therapy does wonders, but I don't really talk about my problems to people for several reasons:
-> I don't want to bother people about my problems
-> I don't find people's advice valuable (they are no experts)
-> I am generally doing OK
so I feel like there is a time and place for me to talk about myself and my problems to a third expert party

As for geographical arbitrage... yes, I tried that and I also realized that the quality wasn't there.

[ertyu]

Well, your resident forum chicken may be quitting his "woe is me, oh why must i suffer so" line of employment. At the end of my current contract, if all goes well, I will have saved 25x the median yearly wage in my country of origin. I have been applying for positions as a university lecturer in economics in third-tier universities in the country where I currently work. These come with on-campus faculty housing, a comparatively low workload (16-20 45 min classes per week), and a monthly stipend of 2-3k USD over the 10 school months (summer is unpaid). I will likely still save 15-ish k usd for the year; a slower savings rate than what I currently have but in exchange (I hope) for way less stress. The locations of these is usually quite remote so I'm unlikely to be having much of a life, which isn't a big change from how I've been living so far. I'm still interviewing, let's see how it goes.

[mathiverse]

Good luck! I hope you get the gig. It sounds like it'd be a huge change for the better even with a slower savings rate!

[Frita]

Congrats on reaching 25x expenses in your native country! The lecturer position sounds better than adjuncting. What are the grading and office hours like? How would you envision spending your two unemployed/free months?

[ertyu]

thanks, all

in other news, I am in the stretch of this job search where im not getting hired because i don't have experience, and i don't have experience because im not getting hired. i'm a very hot commodity in my old line of work, which i hate, because i have experience. it is the having experience itself which is half the reason why i want to quit: i've done this before, i'm bored of it.

i am about to send a round of, "if another more experienced candidate falls though in the last moment, i am here and ready to start work on short notice, please do give me a call" emails. let's see if anything comes out of that. this process is frustrating af.

seems like once the "experience" is there, it's all smooth sailing because various hr ladies can tick their various boxes, but until then it's apparently no go :/

[comandante]

this process is frustrating af

I wonder how you keep yourself from giving in to that frustration.

[zbigi]

In my modest experience, changing careers is not easy, unless you're switching into a currently hot field. If the field is not hot, then you need to probably start with a job that is below your expectations, either in terms of pay or conditions or the actual skills only being adjacent to what you're after. This job will count as "experience" later, but the relative unattractiveness will mean they might have to settle on someone without prior experience like you.

[ertyu]

I wonder how you keep yourself from giving in to that frustration.

I get frustrated, I notice I'm frustrated and experience it instead of trying to suppress it. I whine, people tell me, "there there, that sucks" because when they whined in the past I listened and told them, "there, there, that sucks," then I give it a couple of days, I think of something else to try, and I try it -- and so far, it hasn't worked, so we take it from the top I get frustrated and I whine lol

At some point, I will either succeed or I'll have to accept that I won't succeed and I'll have to give up

In my modest experience, changing careers is not easy, unless you're switching into a currently hot field. If the field is not hot, then you need to probably start with a job that is below your expectations, either in terms of pay or conditions or the actual skills only being adjacent to what you're after. This job will count as "experience" later, but the relative unattractiveness will mean they might have to settle on someone without prior experience like you.

Makes sense, and I'm already applying for more remote places which aren't necessarily "brand names" or attractive locations / attractive salary-wise. Idk if the field is hot but I'm not seeing people with advanced degrees jumping over themselves to live in the middle of nowhere and work for $1-1.5k a month. Those are the places I realistically have a chance at, and I'm ready to put in my 2 years at crap location/low wage.

I'm thinking what's going on is office politics: if you're an HR office lady and you take a chance on a candidate that doesn't quite tick all boxes and that candidate doesn't work out, then it's your fault. On the other hand, if a candidate met all requirements and didn't work out, you could say "Well he ticked all the boxes, who could've thunk."

I'm applying to work as a lecturer, so they need to fill those positions before the beginning of the school year, which is September. I assume in May, they're still looking at my CV and going, well that guy doesn't have any experience, and waiting in case someone else shows up. I just need to wait and see if things will look differently, say, at the end of July - or on August 10th when Candidate Awesome emails them and says, you know what, I'm not coming. Then there's another window of opportunity if someone doesn't pass their probation period and they need to fill in a position on short notice after the beginning of the school year. Realistically, those seem to be my chances.

[Crusader]

FWIW, I know of an ex colleague who got hired to teach some kind of a programming or math summer course at a university for 4 months with no teaching experience. Maybe the thing to do is find a shorter gig first to get some teaching experience?

[Bankai]

At the end of my current contract, if all goes well, I will have saved 25x the median yearly wage in my country of origin.

Good job! That's a big milestone and should give a lot of comfort.

I was looking at various economic indicators in European countries over the last decade and a half and realized geo arbitrage is probably much trickier to pull off than many realize. For example, since I moved from PL to the UK, the average wage in $ almost doubled in PL while in the UK it's pretty much flat. This means assets have to unsurprisingly work much harder to sustain WR in countries with higher inflation and GDP/wage growth. Perhaps one way to mitigate this is to invest locally, such us in real estate which should in theory grow at least in line with (higher local) inflation and provide steady income on top. Also, just keeping up with inflation while living in a rapidly developing country is not a winning proposition as one will be falling behind by real growth each year. After a decade or so this will be very noticeable. All led me to the conclusion that my eventual coming back to my motherland will require a much better plan than leaving my assets invested in the UK in some kind of global tracker.

[loutfard]

I was looking at various economic indicators in European countries over the last decade and a half and realized geo arbitrage is probably much trickier to pull off than many realize. For example, since I moved from PL to the UK, the average wage in $ almost doubled in PL while in the UK it's pretty much flat.
...
All led me to the conclusion that my eventual coming back to my motherland will require a much better plan than leaving my assets invested in the UK in some kind of global tracker.

I've carefully observed a similar situation in my wife's native Baltic country.

My guesstimates about inflation there:
- Food inflation will probably plateau now prices are just a hair under western Europe's.
- Real estate will follow wage growth. Easy to hedge against though by buying now. Either a place to live or a local REIT if that is a thing.
- Energy inflation should go down. Lots of investment in cheap wind, water, solar and even non-Russian natural gas imports happening. Lots of local wood available. Finnish nuclear electricity finally online. A properly insulated house will shield you from much of that.
- Building materials traditionally imported from Russia and Belarus will probably plateau at current high levels for the duration of the war, then fall again.
- Services inflation will keep growing with wage growth. Outsourced construction/renovation works are better done now than tomorrow. ERE habits will protect you from services inflation to an extent.

All in all nothing too bad. Hair dresser and opera arbitrage may slowly start becoming a thing of the past. So be it. The rest of inlfation we're fairly protected from.

A more existential risk is if the butcher from Moscow decides he wants a summer house in Jūrmala. But I digress...

[ertyu]

Well, your resident forum potato has finally found a job. 10 out of 12 contracted months per year with July and August free, 2500 USD per month after tax paid in the local currency which includes a local CPI inflation adjustment and a tiny raise each year to encourage seniority, plus an apartment on campus. I will be lecturing intro to business and intro to econ. Large city but not the capital, so cost of living is also better than elsewhere in the country. Let's see how it goes. The goal was to stay cash-positive while not doing anything god knows how taxing. Hopefully, it's how it'll be. Aggressive savings target (very strict): 20k usd per year. realistic: 10-15k. Hopefully, I'll be puttering around scratching my balls without drawing down on savings. I'm happy this worked out. I wasn't ready to return to my home country.

[OutOfTheBlue]

Congratulations Ertyu. Glad you've persevered and made that happen, conditions are looking good!