The Manual of Epictetus

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
guitarplayer
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The Manual of Epictetus

Post by guitarplayer »

I am planning to reflect on The Manual of Epictetus here. The thread might find a better home in another sub forum, none of which I mind it being moved to. This uses translation by P.E Matheson and the first chapter goes
1

Of all existing things some are in our power, and others are not in our power. In our power are thought, impulse, will to get and will to avoid, and, in a word, everything which is our own doing. Things not in our power include the body, property, reputation, office, and, in a word, everything which is not our own doing. Things in our power are by nature free, unhindered, untrammelled; things not in our power are weak, servile, subject to hindrance, dependent on others. Remember then that if you imagine that what is naturally slavish is free, and what is naturally another's is your own, you will be hampered, you will mourn, you will be put to confusion, you will blame gods and men; but if you think that only your own belongs to you, and that what is another's is indeed another's, no one will ever put compulsion or hindrance on you, you will blame none, you will accuse none, you will do nothing against your will, no one will harm you, you will have no enemy, for no harm can touch you.

Aiming then at these high matters, you must remember that to attain them requires more than ordinary effort; you will have to give up some things entirely, and put off others for the moment. And if you would have these also—office and wealth—it may be that you will fail to get them, just because your desire is set on the former, and you will certainly fail to attain those things which alone bring freedom and happiness.

Make it your study then to confront every harsh impression with the words, 'You are but an impression, and not at all what you seem to be'. Then test it by those rules that you possess; and first by this—the chief test of all—'Is it concerned with what is in our power or with what is not in our power?' And if it is concerned with what is not in our power, be ready with the answer that it is nothing to you.

ertyu
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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by ertyu »

It is interesting where he draws the line between what is in one's control and what isn't. Modern "podcast bro" grind/hustle culture and half of the self-help industry is predicated on the idea that the body, our property, our reputation, and the station we rise to in life are all our doing and one is a loser if one fails to achieve in these respects. Hell, FIRE/ERE is pretty much predicated on the idea that our body, our property, our reputation, and our station in life are variables one can, and should, strive to consciously shape. We also assume that such shaping can be "skillful" or "unskillful," - so we take for granted these can be shaped and the discussion is entirely around -how- we shape them best.

On the other hand, neuroscience is very much approaching the idea that thought, impulse, the will to get and the will to avoid (i assume those are the same as buddhism's grasping and avoidance?), etc. are very much involuntary and our control over them is difficult and at best limited (eg Robert Sapolski has expressed the idea that our free will is very limited).

It could be I misunderstand stoicism's view on the nature of all of the above, so I'll be following the discussion.

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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by guitarplayer »

Nice one @ertyu!

Modern industry and culture are in many ways non-stoic I think :D. Non-Epicurean too for that matter, maybe some branch of hedonism could sign under them, I don't know.
In our power are thought, impulse, will to get and will to avoid, and, in a word, everything which is our own doing.
Yes, I think stoicism is predicated on the idea of human will being under our control. In this sense it seems to be a weaker conceptual framework than for example Epicureanism, proponents of which say that there are just atoms and nothing else. This framework is stronger in that it is more parsimonious i.e. has fewer elements. Basically, evolutionary theory is a roughly Epicurean theory I would say.

Certain traits are passed on down the timeline, the ones favoured by the environment stay.
Certain activities are continued down the timeline, the ones that cost less wrt pain/pleasure equation remain.

The cost of the more parsimonous Epicurean theory is its poor face validity. This concept comes from psychological testing, it has to do with whether a tool that does the job looks like it would do the job. It is important for popular adoption. Stoicism has much more of that compared to Epicureanism, maybe because it was incorporated by Christianity and spread across the Western World. The idea of virtue as a lighthouse to aim at comes across appealing. Hence, operating from the position of free will might make it more likely for the framework to be picked up.

I think Epictetus would agree that it is in our power to strive to shape body, career, skills etc. but whether we manage or not is not up to us. Chance, god, birth lottery or similar could contribute to success in such venture to some, equal or greater extent.

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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by Lemur »

Use stoicism to rebel against the absurd.

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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by ertyu »

I love the Epicureans. They were the OG dopamine detox guys -- embraced simplicity precisely because it keeps our ability to experience pleasure sharp

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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

Does anyone here have any additional good book recommendations on Epicureanism? I've been meaning to study more about that philosophy because it seems more applicable to our bizarre time period than Stoicism.

I personally don't believe free will exists, but paradoxically, the more agency I imagine I have, the easier my life is to navigate. The lack of free will has caused me to focus more on improving my environment, behavior triggers, and habits, and less on my personal will power or character flaws, which has also made reaching my goals easier.

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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by chenda »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:54 am
Does anyone here have any additional good book recommendations on Epicureanism?
Daniel Klein - Travels with Epicurus. I found it a bit depressing actually but I still think it's worth reading.

Penguin Classics have published all of Epicurus's extant writings, which amount to a tiny fraction of what he is known to have written. It contains an interesting if rather provocative introduction by George Strodach.

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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by jacob »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:54 am
I personally don't believe free will exists, but paradoxically, the more agency I imagine I have, the easier my life is to navigate. The lack of free will has caused me to focus more on improving my environment, behavior triggers, and habits, and less on my personal will power or character flaws, which has also made reaching my goals easier.
Reframing the free will/agency into ...

Free will: a moot point
Executive functioning (control): strategic + tactical decision making capacity
Agency (access, optionality): executive functioning + resource environment

... might unlock a new perspective. In particular:
Second order agency: executive functioning applied on altering the environment (Sun Tzu chapter 10).

As usual, language lacks words(*) to describe the concepts but think Kegan in terms of depth of constructs (not necessarily social) ala MHC. Even being aware of the deeper layers makes agency easier at the more shallow layers. A good example of why this matters is the Three Body Problem trilogy: It's impossible to even fight an enemy who controls or has access to the underlying physics.

(*) ETA: Also think access, control, optionality.

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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by ertyu »

Daniel Klein - Travels with Epicurus.
This was an easy read, I just finished it. I would have appreciated a bit less personal navel-gazing and a bit more delving into epicureanism -- and way way less noble-savage-ing of the greeks, that was quite cloying -- but I guess the book was not meant to be a delving into epicureanism, it was meant to be a travelogue with a "philosophical" twinge as a marketing hook. In either case, it was easy to get through.

What was worthwhile came from him mentioning other books -- e.g. Svendsen, A Philosophy of Boredom sounds like one I'd be interested in checking out. The distinction Svendsen draws between situational and existential boredom is interesting to me. Klein brings in a couple of Svendsen's ideas about the mental games we play to avoid awareness of existential boredom and I anticipate I'd be very much called out.

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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

@jacob - That's an interesting way to look at it. I'll ponder that some more. It sort of reminds me of the strategies on how to lose weight. Increasing levels of this might look like:

1. Pantry is full of cookies and you "try not to snack" (very low odds of success)
2. You don't buy any snacks but live next to multiple fast food restaurants (better but still low odds)
3. Move to a rural area with no restaurants or snacks (moderate odds)
4. Integrate into hunter gather society where you have to eat tree leaves (You are guaranteed to lose weight)

The environment is overdetermining behavior in each of these examples, so structuring your environment such that weight loss is a side effect of environment is going to be more effective than "trying to lose weight."

(Although the psychology of people who do manage to lose weight despite the pantry of cookies might be fascinating to study)

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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by chenda »

ertyu wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 10:51 am
This was an easy read, I just finished it. I would have appreciated a bit less personal navel-gazing and a bit more delving into epicureanism -- and way way less noble-savage-ing of the greeks, that was quite cloying --
I agree.

For me Epicureanism is fine as far as it goes but it's just not enough. But it was my gateway drug to spirituality, so I'm grateful to have found it.

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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by guitarplayer »

Second Chapter:
2

Remember that the will to get promises attainment of what you will, and the will to avoid promises escape from what you avoid; and he who fails to get what he wills is unfortunate, and he who does not escape what he wills to avoid is miserable. If then you try to avoid only what is unnatural in the region within your control, you will escape from all that you avoid; but if you try to avoid disease or death or poverty you will be miserable. Therefore let your will to avoid have no concern with what is not in man's power; direct it only to things in man's power that are contrary to nature. But for the moment you must utterly remove the will to get; for if you will to get something not in man's power you are bound to be unfortunate; while none of the things in man's power that you could honourably will to get is yet within your reach. Impulse to act and not to act, these are your concern; yet exercise them gently and without strain, and provisionally.
_________________________________________________________________________________
If then you try to avoid only what is unnatural in the region within your control, you will escape from all that you avoid
This reminds me of circle of competence, zone of proximal development also for learning.
But for the moment you must utterly remove the will to get; for if you will to get something not in man's power you are bound to be unfortunate; while none of the things in man's power that you could honourably will to get is yet within your reach.
This reminds me of what is I think in Sutras (read it a loooong time ago) and generally in Eastern thought - desire is suffering, drop all desire.

ETA: This is almost like Epictetus calling to go back to the pure Epicurean mode. Desire nothing, derive pleasure (although Epictetus does not call it by this name) from the bare fact of existence - the highest pleasure of them all and no strings attached.
Impulse to act and not to act, these are your concern; yet exercise them gently and without strain, and provisionally.
This reminds me of some of the exercise I have been doing last year about deciding what to give assent to. 'I decide not to be affected with so and so'. So no affect involved. Sometimes I might even say this sentence out loud.

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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by guitarplayer »

Chapter 3
3

When anything, from the meanest thing upwards, is attractive or serviceable or an object of affection, remember always to say to yourself, 'What is its nature?' If you are fond of a jug, say you are fond of a jug; then you will not be disturbed if it be broken. If you kiss your child or your wife, say to yourself that you are kissing a human being, for then if death strikes it you will not be disturbed.
It is desirable to want things in our power - thought, impulse, will to get and will to avoid. Wisdom, modesty, courage and justice.

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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by guitarplayer »

Chapter 4
4

When you are about to take something in hand, remind yourself what manner of thing it is. If you are going to bathe put before your mind what happens in the bath—water pouring over some, others being jostled, some reviling, others stealing; and you will set to work more securely if you say to yourself at once: 'I want to bathe, and I want to keep my will in harmony with nature,' and so in each thing you do; for in this way, if anything turns up to hinder you in your bathing, you will be ready to say, 'I did not want only to bathe, but to keep my will in harmony with nature, and I shall not so keep it, if I lose my temper at what happens'.
In some translations this is put humorously along the lines of 'I am not going to get grumpy at someone splashing water over me'.

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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by guitarplayer »

Chapter 5
5

What disturbs men's minds is not events but their judgements on events: For instance, death is nothing dreadful, or else Socrates would have thought it so. No, the only dreadful thing about it is men's judgement that it is dreadful. And so when we are hindered, or disturbed, or distressed, let us never lay the blame on others, but on ourselves, that is, on our own judgements. To accuse others for one's own misfortunes is a sign of want of education; to accuse oneself shows that one's education has begun; to accuse neither oneself nor others shows that one's education is complete.
I read this out loud:

is a sign of want of education

and we laughed with DW; a nice way to call an idiot.
Last edited by guitarplayer on Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

ertyu
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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by ertyu »

:lol: how do we know if something's true? well if it was, socrates would've said so :lol:

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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by guitarplayer »

Yes that was was funny too.

I sometimes imagine the Athens of those days in contemporary context, what social roles these guys would hold. Well, we have the Oracle as per Matrix already. Surely there is another movie or a book about this.

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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by guitarplayer »

Chapter 6
6

Be not elated at an excellence which is not your own. If the horse in his pride were to say, 'I am handsome', we could bear with it. But when you say with pride, 'I have a handsome horse', know that the good horse is the ground of your pride. You ask then what you can call your own. The answer is—the way you deal with your impressions. Therefore when you deal with your impressions in accord with nature, then you may be proud indeed, for your pride will be in a good which is your own.
In other words don't bask in reflected glory. I occasionally bask in reflected glory, deliberately. Not very stoic of me, working on it.

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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by mooretrees »

Thanks for sharing these, I’m enjoying them. I also enjoyed when you wrote about your experiences with trying out the stoic exercises.

ertyu
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Re: The Manual of Epictetus

Post by ertyu »

Not basking in reflected glory is big imo. Consider: sports fans. Rabid Trump fanboys. Men who assess their relationship partners on the basis of what their buddies would think about them. Parents who do not allow their children to be their own full person and instead try to stamp out who the child is so the child can become whose reflected glory the parent would enjoy "basking in." So insidious, and so damaging, both to the self and to others.

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