V02 Max Challenge

[Scott 2]

More learning. While the title made me hesitant, Training for the Uphill Athlete is a great general purpose endurance book:

1. Chasing v02 max is like the "what's your bench" of the endurance world. While the book covers it better, their site has a good article: https://uphillathlete.com/max-vo2-myth/

2. Determining if I am aerobically deficient can inform how much time is spent on high intensity work: https://uphillathlete.com/when-to-add-i ... -training/

3. This requires identifying Aerobic Threshold, which I'll attempt with a heart rate drift test: https://uphillathlete.com/heart-rate-drift/

4. I also need an Anaerobic Threshold, which I'll attempt with a 30 minute test: https://uphillathlete.com/diy-anaerobic-test/

5. Then I can use the link MountainFrugal provided earlier, to establish training zones: https://uphillathlete.com/uphill-athlet ... alculator/


It's likely I am aerobically deficient, which argues for little time on anything but zone 2 work. I could assume that and only do the heart rate drift test. But, the other test looks more fun.

Based on data I have so far, I am going to guess 130 for my Aerobic Threshold and 155 for my Anaerobic Threshold.

I'll use the elliptical for testing. I set a baseline yesterday. Hitting my desired heart rate with precision was easy. My mask made nasal breathing impractical, ruling out a respiratory threshold test. Zone 4/5 work was not a good fit:



I can see how one eventually loses the HR monitor, but retains sufficient control over their intensity.

[shaz]

@Scott2 I just saw this article from the legendary Ashley Jones and thought you might be interested. https://www.elitefts.com/education/prog ... ry-status/

[Scott 2]

That's a good article, thanks. I'll keep it in mind for when I re-prioritize my strength training.

I wonder if he ever uses HRV to assess athlete recovery. That's the reason I originally purchased the heart rate strap. At the time, I found work stress meant my HRV was consistently mediocre. Since I'm not good at trying, training load didn't cause much day to day variation. So, I stopped checking it.

An implication of my poor ability to try, is my training weights end up closer to my max weights, than a chart might otherwise suggest. The strongman combined that with a higher than typical volume, in an effort to generate sufficient load for adaptation. It helped compensate for my low intensity, at least until I failed to provide sufficient recovery.

One of the big benefits I gained from the velocity meter, was the ability to compute a true expected 1RM. I found the combination of weight and speed to be very predictive. Having hard data made it much easier for me to find the related effort.

[Scott 2]

I attempted a heart rate drift test today, hoping to get at my aerobic threshold. While I established some bounds, it's going to take more than one attempt. My expectation, was after warming up to 125bpm, I'd stay there for 60 minutes. Not even close:



Take aways:

1. Cutting the 15 minute warm up to 10 minutes wasn't smart. One could argue I really started the test at 130bpm. I had the elliptical at resistance 11, 108 strokes per minute, for a few minutes before starting at minute 10. But apparently that wasn't enough.

2. 125bpm is a reasonable upper bound of my aerobic threshold. It is likely lower.

3. 145bpm is a reasonable lower bound of my anaerobic threshold. If we define anaerobic threshold as activity that can be sustained for less than 8 minutes, 150bpm is a reasonable lower bound.

4. The bounds above establish me as aerobically deficient. They almost certainly under-estimate the spread between my aerobic and anaerobic thresholds. More accurate numbers will only exaggerate the finding.

5. I did over 30 minutes at the Polar defined Zone 4. I could have kept going. That's more than double what I've logged before. I am terrible at judging intensity or work capacity by feel.

6. I may not be allocating enough time for specific aerobic warmup, especially when doing high intensity conditioning or v02 max testing.


Next step is to repeat the aerobic threshold test, but at resistance level 9 instead of 11.

Today's session was hard enough, that I won't run the anaerobic threshold test near term. I already have my obvious constraint. Having played closer to a 100% effort, going all the way looks miserable. I'll save that for when I need better data.

[shaz]

@Scott2 what are you ultimately trying to achieve? Are these goals just to keep you motivated or are you trying to achieve a performance outcome?

[Scott 2]

I am entertaining myself. This is for fun. There is no true performance goal or ultimate achievement. I like chasing a high score, playing with data, learning via trial and error, etc. v02 max is an arbitrary target.

I am exploring the idea of deliberate practice, while enjoying learning more about how the body works. Experiencing it in my own body offers a much deeper sense of knowing, than memorizing some facts.

[mountainFrugal]

Good progress!

5. I did over 30 minutes at the Polar defined Zone 4. I could have kept going. That's more than double what I've logged before. I am terrible at judging intensity or work capacity by feel.

6. I may not be allocating enough time for specific aerobic warmup, especially when doing high intensity conditioning or v02 max testing.

It takes a while to accurately judge your effort level and this of course is a bit of a moving target as you build base aerobic fitness. I think that reducing the resistance level to maintain an even heart rate will be good. Until you build a good base your heart rate is going to go up over a half an hour at the same effort level.

A proper warm-up will get you into higher heart rate zones for at least short periods. As an example: 5 minutes zone 1/2, then sprinkle in 100m sprint efforts for 10 minutes to at least briefly touch the higher zones. This warm-up can be scaled for various test activities. I find that when I spend more time working through the range of heart rates as part of the warm up the better a hard effort goes. This is opposed to spending all the warm up in lower heart rate zones when the test is going to be much harder. Not as dramatic a jump as a complete cold start, but not much better.

[Scott 2]

I'll keep that pattern in mind for warm ups.


Today I established an aerobic threshold - 120bpm. Since it was too soon for another elliptical session, I tried an inclined treadmill. Using a 5% grade at 3mph was tolerable. My feet had a few small blisters after 75 minutes, but I was otherwise fine. No shaky hands after this effort.

The heart rate curve looks obviously different. I was worried it was too easy, especially given the drop halfway through. Then about 15 minutes before the end, my HR started climbing. I assume lactate finally began to build.



Now to play with volume accumulation strategies. Knocking off 75 minute blocks at the gym is effective, but not a mentally sticky behavior. I wonder if I can find a consistent 120bpm walking my weight vest. The last walk was at 110bpm, but I didn't have a target.

[Scott 2]

I tried a spikier warm up. It was better.

My intent was a more aggressive 2000m row, but I aborted halfway through. I started too strong and tagged 169bpm by the halfway point. I wasn't sure I could hold that pace, or what it would be like on the other side. I decided not to take a 100% intensity attempt.

I need to learn the heart rate curve for my v02 max test. I did another, moderate intensity attempt, intentionally starting around 150bpm. Over 10 minutes, cardiac drift predictably took me up to 155bpm. From learning that curve on the elliptical, I had no questions about feel. I knew I could comfortably do it.



For the v02 max test - there is an optimal heart rate curve, my body can express. I can viscerally learn it. Pace can be an emergent result of a known pattern. Instead of the unknown - "how hard can I try today?" Incrementally raising the baseline pattern, I can bypass my unreliable ability to try. Once I know what X feels like, I can commit to the experience of x+1.

Once I understand that pattern, I can pull from it a starting bpm. Let's say I reliably go from 156 to 170bpm over 10 minutes. Then I can use a 2 minute interval to predict v02 max performance, without taking 100% efforts. What pace expresses the starting heart rate pattern of my v02 max test? That gives me the elusive leading indicator, for monitoring progress. Similar to a rep / max calculator with lifting, or a weight / velocity curve.

Maybe this is backing into anaerobic threshold. Maybe it is a way for me to make consistent hard efforts.

[Scott 2]

I made another attempt at establishing a v02 max heart rate curve for the 2000m row:



This was not a 100% effort, but closer. It started around 166bpm, working up to 169bpm. Towards the end, there was more in the tank, so I let it out. That got me to 174bpm. It's reasonable to think the gap between 169 and 174 represents work I could have accumulated, via a steady effort. I still don't have a good feel for a maximal pace. What if my heart does 190bpm?

My ability to sustain effort varies widely by exercise. This is a problem, specifically in accumulating zone 2 work at home. Using a weights circuit or sled isn't well suited to zone 2. Forcing it won't be mentally sustainable. I tried getting zone 2 on foot, but my feet and ankles only support short bursts. This walk/jog got me 20 minutes of zone 2, but took my feet and ankles 3 days to recover:



My weight vest carries a similar problem. It's unclear how fast or if sufficient adaptation will occur. I am exploring other options. Before today's 2000m row, I tried holding zone 2 on an exercise bike and the rower, pictured above.

The bike raises a minor muscular endurance constraint in my thighs. I think they'd adapt faster than my feet and ankles. Picking up a used bike is an option. I have access to trails. My Dad bikes. However, I'm not looking for a hobby and know I resent the maintenance. Biking certainly fits the ERE/FIRE cliche. One round trip to the gym via bike saves $4, after all.

The rower works well. It would plug and play into my current patterns. If I carefully buy used, I can sell for close to what I pay. However, I do wonder about mental sustainability. Do too much, and it won't be fun anymore. I'm prone to slipping in hard efforts. I'd be giving up the foot print in my home gym. There's also the argument - if I have an engine that only runs on an exercise machine, what's the point?

Not sure if I throw money at the constraint. Doing so feels consumerist. Driving to the gym more often is viable short term. Long term, I think gym too often will lead to mental burnout. There's also something to be said for upping independence from gym access. I'll probably step away during flu season this winter, as well as any time Covid numbers get excessive.

[mountainFrugal]

It is great to see such a systematic effort exploring the range of heart rates/efforts/exercises.

I might continue to suggest a few things if that is okay:
1) As you already alluded to, you have to keep the interest high to make putting in the relatively "boring" base miles/strokes/etc. for the long haul to really build capacity. Your largest gains (percentage wise) will be initially so preparing for the long term now will be helpful when after the easy gains are made in the next few months as you build up your base. Basically, you should think about the long game while also being super excited about exploration. Does Scott2 want to be a machine in 3 years or push for shorter gains now?
2) Doing more lower heart rate zone base workouts will serve you better in the long term than always going for testing. (I realize you have limited time given your other activities and goals).
3) An important aspect of a test is finishing it, even if that means reducing the effort level in order to finish. This will train you to push through discomfort and quickly down cycle the effort to a more sustainable "relief" pace.
4) Another way to get into "testing shape" is to cycle between on and off for that hard effort for increasing amounts of time (over the next month or so). Just like the spiked warm-up, this is how you do your workout. Working up to 2 minutes on, 1 minute off or similar for a whole 2000m in the middle of your workout. Then working up from there until you can sustain a hard effort for the entire test. Also, hard efforts that were preceded by good nights rest and a few days to recover fully prior to trying will go a lot better.

[Scott 2]

Feedback is of course welcome. I am figuring things out and very much a novice.

Fair points on testing frequency and intensity. I noticed my last high intensity attempt was 4 days ago. As my exploration tapers off, I do intend to reduce hard efforts to once a week. Another argument in favor of better zone 2 options at home. I am currently very curious what 100% feels like. It's less about the score, and more about knowing the repeatable experience. Hence the simplistic attempts.

The honest answer about being a machine in 3 years - I don't know the price I am willing to pay. My exploration now includes understanding what endurance costs. 7 hours per week on the elliptical isn't a lifetime behavior. 4 hours over a variety of modalities might be. It's possible one of them captures my long term interest. This month I've touched the pool, trail, treadmill, elliptical, bike, and rower.

My perspective on conditioning is already forever changed. Heading into my 40's, I think it's a much healthier approach.

[shaz]

@Scott2 have you tried running stairs when you want to get your heart rate way up?

[Scott 2]

Not really. Living in the suburbs, my access to long flights of stairs is limited. I've had periods where I used a step mill at the gym. It is hard, but less fun than other high heart rate options. I genuinely enjoy the sled, rowing machine and weight circuits. I could see a steep hill offering another good option, but Zone 2 time remains my primary conditioning priority.

From that end - I am pursuing zone 2 on foot. I logged 38 minutes on Tuesday, up from 20 during last week's attempt. I was surprised by the large bump in work tolerance. Again my lower leg required 2-3 days of recovery. That is approaching a useful volume, assuming I can get recovery time down. I've been working my way into barefoot shoes over the past 6 months, and it is starting to pay dividends.

I am still considering a rowing machine or bike for next month's budget. I don't always feel like driving to the gym, especially during a deload week. Having more options available at home can only help.

[shaz]

Since you can go both up and down stairs, you don't need a long flight in order to use them for efficient training. I don't enjoy using flights shorter than 4 steps because then it isn't worth turning around and you may as well just do step ups, in my opinion. But a single normal flight of stairs such as from the main floor of your house to the basement is quite useful and certainly no more boring than using the elliptical at the gym. You can always intersperse single leg and double leg hops up the stairs if you get bored walking or running. I don't advise doing hops down the stairs because of the falling risk.

It seems to me that you are allowing the perceived requirement for equipment to come between you and your training/performance goals.

I know this thread is specifically about VO2max but that is a single measure that can mean many things. If you apply systems thinking to your understanding of physiology, you can usually find many ways to get to the same performance result. The books that have been cited in this thread as well as numerous other threads in this forum are consumer solutions to the understanding of physiology and thus use a reductionist approach to make it easy to sell a complex issue.

You may find more success if instead of focusing on VO2max (or anaerobic threshold or any other "single number" measure) as measured in a particular way you think about which metabolic systems you want to influence in order to achieve your performance goals, and then look at all the ways you can exert that influence.

I'm sorry if this doesn't make sense. I don't want to discourage you from exploring your own performance limits and furthering your understanding of exercise physiology.

[Scott 2]

I think we're coming at activity from very different perspectives. Explorer vs. Achiever, maybe:

https://www.thegamer.com/bartle-four-ga ... er-killer/


The journey is my goal. It's fun for me to pick an arbitrary criteria, then try to puzzle out a high score. I could just as happily be playing a video game. In this case, the IRL metric of V02 max has caught my interest. Outside of gamifying the metric, my only expected takeaway is some integration of conditioning into my lifestyle. When it stops being fun, I'll stop. Diversions are welcome entertainment.

Related - I lift weights 4x a week, on an upper/lower split. I've been doing that for over twenty years. I'll probably do it until I die. The what and how varies, but the pattern resonates with my nature. Original goals were stuff like "impress girls", "have muscles" and "be strong". But that's all back burner now. Lifting is just something I do, like brushing my teeth. Less than 4x per week - I miss it. More often - I burn out. I try new stuff constantly. I enjoy it, despite at best, being a very middling lifter.

Until lately, conditioning has been an after thought. Once my interest in cardio metrics fades, there will be some remnant that integrates into my lifestyle. Maybe it's 15 minutes of HIIT after every lifting. Maybe it's 3h of weekly zone 2 cardio via any means. Maybe I take up triathlons. Dunno. Depends what resonates through experience. There is no achievement to earn, just fun to be had.

Since the exploration is the fun, my bar for quitting is very low. Accumulating zone 2 minutes on a single flight of stairs? I might make it through one or two attempts. Someone with an achievement based goal might do whatever it takes, since results are the end product. But for me, results are a side effect. Part of the reason I went to the gym for Sunday's elliptical session, is I planned to stop for ice cream on the way home.

If after all this, my v02 max goes down, I'll be amused, not upset.

Coming from that perspective - new toys are part of the fun. Trying to buy my way better is another form of play. I have spare cash, so I bring it to the field. Since my the budget is constrained, I also think about what happens when my interest fades. To that end, I'll probably buy used stuff, intending to sell later. If I get impatient, I might not. I could decide it's worth eating the retail premium, to explore faster.


You're correct in pointing out this is not an integrated system, directed at achieving a specific goal. My actions are not consistent with a high ERE Wheaton level. For me personally, screwing around at level 4/5 is awesome. I deliberately avoid seeking progression, solely for the sake of leveling. Hanging out here over the years, some level creep seems inevitable. My hope is it comes through discovery, rather than forced growth.

[Scott 2]

Wednesday, I hit a two point PR of 38, on the rower V02 test.



I don't know how to try harder. The dip around minute 50 is where I wanted to quit. I couldn't tell if cardio or muscular endurance was my limiter. This is after lifting, at the end of a cardio session, wearing a multi-layer cloth mask. Fully rested, with no mask, could be better. It's fun to see a PR in the course of training though.

Given that I didn't collapse or throw up, it's probably not a true maximal effort. I don't know how to access that. Coffee might help.


I am struggling to keep in zone 2. I get caught up and over do. My last long elliptical session:



Using barefoot shoes in the local trail:



The trail is especially interesting, in that my effort felt low. I kept pulling back, based entirely on lowering heart rate. Several hours after getting home, my body remained flushed from the exertion. A day later, I am drained. My feet and lower legs were pushed close to their healthy limit.

My internal governor remains unreliable. Now that I am covering 4 miles at a steady effort, I will lock distance and practice moderating pace. About 20 years ago, I'd often run 5-7 miles at 6mph. My body remembers and wants to rush back, despite my flesh being weak.

[shaz]

Thanks for the reminder to look at things from other perspectives and you are right, we were coming at the topic of VO2max from very different places. I ran 1000s of VO2max tests on athletes when I worked at the Olympic Training Center so it is difficult for me to separate VO2max from elite athletic performance but it also is good to remember there can be other goals than winning.

[shaz]

I just saw this journal article come out. You might find it useful for when you are trying to identify anaerobic threshold while exercising: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32412967/

[Scott 2]

Thanks, I read the abstract and will keep it in mind. I appreciate the sharing of your expertise.

I couldn't be further removed from an elite athlete. I was the kid in right field, watching planes fly by.