I think we're on the same page albeit not on the same wording. Cohesive conformity is the primary goal of both blue and green: "Stay in your place". It's just a difference of who defines that place.Jin+Guice wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:20 pm@jacob: I'm confused as to how you're describing isn't blue behavior to some extent? Green should be less susceptible to groupthink? If I understand this correctly, Blue may accidentally arrive at harmony through groupthink while Green may accidentally arrive at groupthink while they pursue harmony. But holy cows and prolonged groupthink should be the province of Blue, no? Green seeks harmony with knowledge of coercive self-interest (Orange) and seeks what's best for the group through group cohesion. But, if I understand this correctly, they should be somewhat dynamic and not blindly adhere to the group just because cohesion is found. Cohesion is the goal, not the religion (as it is at Blue)? Otherwise, how is Green different than Blue?
With blue (traditionalism), emphasis is on learning and abiding the rules within a god-given context. There's a specific place for you in the hierarchy as a peasant, knight, priest, man, woman, child, ... and your focus will be on learning and executing those rules according to your "god-given" place. You can never leave your position in this hierarchy. You were born to live and die in the life you were born to.
With orange (modernism), the emphasis is on learning the rules within a still fixed context. However, it's no longer with the goal of being the best peasant or man you can be within the peasant or man rules ... but to climb to a better position in the hierarchy.
With green (postmodernism), the context of a hierarchical organization is finally challenged. The new meta-context (unseen) is that any context is valid. Context (whatever rules you have to learn) is no longer established by hierarchy but by consensus-oriented discourse. The only valid solution is now a flat-hierarchy (the holy cow or meta-context that shall not be gored!). Maximum group cohesion is achieved once everybody agrees through a long process of negotiation. Ahh... negotiation, how to do this well? Or badly?
Part of the "confusion" might be due to have green appears as a mature implementation (Japan, Scandinavia) and an adolescent implementation (US). The former have anti-individual proverbs like tall poppy syndrome, nail that sticks out get hammered, law of Jante. All designed to keep people from straying away from the average. The priority of egocentric green is "who you're doing it with" cf egocentric orange's "what you're doing". Maccoby's Gamesmen was written for orange. Green gamesmen are people skilled in backroom politics, popularity contests, ... succeeding in green is about playing the people, undermining, poisoning the well, ... Succeeding in orange is about bending the rules w/o pissing off the people higher in the hierarchy.
Yes, that was a very sociopathic description of how these things can go. A simpler summary is that adolescent green strives to reduce the "variation" by including the opinions of the entire distribution (minorities); whereas mature green strives to consolidate and fortify around "average opinion" by making sure that people don't stray.
More abstract:
Blue - cohesion within a given and fixed hierarchy.
Green - cohesion without a given hierarchy.
Let me rephrase that: Yellow is informed leadership [by local doing] that understands the dynamics of [global] harmony but is willing to adjust local dynamics when necessary to steer the spiral. Turquoise is informed leadership [by global being] that understands the patterns of harmony and defines it by setting an example.Jin+Guice wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:20 pmAlso, I never understood Yellow, but is Yellow manipulating groups for their own (perceived) benefit in a way that also benefits themselves? I'm describing it negatively bc of how my thoughts are flowing. An attempt at a more positive way: Yellow is informed leadership that understands the dynamics of harmony, but is willing to break harmony, when necessary, to steer the group. "When necessary" is internally defined and not solely in search of ego gratification (which would be Orange)?
Tier1 is about survival of the phenotype (egocentric). Tier2 is about the survival of the genotype (worldcentric). Beige ~ Yellow and Purple ~ Turquoise and so on. Thus yellow is interfering with the spiral for the survival/benefit of the genotype.