Hristo's FI Journal

Where are you and where are you going?
ZAFCorrection
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by ZAFCorrection »

Whether or not people are self centered is probably not discernable without being up close. Just about everyone says they aren't and has some dialogue about how what they are doing is altruistic in some way.

I'd say the big difference between your attitude, Hristo, and others is a focus on altruism and engagement with people immediately around you vs altruism and engagement in some more abstract sense or further away from home. The rational/introverted style seems to include a heavy focus on optimizing one's immediate surroundings (7w5 keeps referring to some zone thing I never remember), to the exclusion of basically everyone who can't be fit into some kind of lifestyle design. But that doesn't mean they aren't leaving the fortress of solitude to do some good work. Or maybe that is just a rationalization. I don't think it is possible to judge without really knowing the person.

LiberateMind
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by LiberateMind »

I think I’m finally growing tired of the egocentric and self-centered focus of some of what I’m seeing on this forum. Do something to be useful to your sister and brother. --- What’s WL10? It’s some guy positively contributing to his community by employing people, supporting families, providing goods or services his local community actually wants and needs, and doing it virtuously. Savings rate, withdrawal rates, “robustness” rates, those are all just metrics by which non-doers can measure themselves to feel good about their non-doing and their leechnessness....
You think I don’t know that I could abandon my family and my church and my colleagues and clients and go live in a F’ing van and never have to work again? That makes me some sort of Buddha? An “enlightened one”? What about duty, fidelity? What about virtue? What about being called for some higher purpose than just figuring out how to feed and shelter and entertain myself?

Figure out what skills and abilities God granted you, and figure out how you can use those skills and abilities to benefit your brothers and sisters, to be useful. There’s an “end” for you; an ultimate purpose. It sure as shit makes more sense than “chopping wood, carrying water.”
That is quiet some post, I wonder what triggered it. I think living is other peoples labor is occurs in many ways, via capitalism investment, via inheritance, via corporate career as well . Self centered people would be there in every environment irrespective of where we are, even inside family structure. I like to think of ERE as it is offering a degree of freedom from money , so that we can make life choices without thinking about money. Or standing up for your values without fearing how your family will do without the paycheck.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

One way to think about it is that even in highly religious setting some people are more likely to be pastors while others are more likely to be monks.

I am not an artisan :lol: I am an old rational female with tertiary FE who already raised her own family and who has been working part-time in settings not unlike “To Call the Midwife” for the last 4 or 5 years. So, I would also note that just because the bleached blonde character of Trixie likes to have fun doesn’t preclude her from also doing good work in her community. I am willing to bet that I have changed 3x as many lifetime cumulative diapers as you ;) :lol:

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Scott 2 »

From what I've observed, people who manage to FIRE/ERE, don't anchor on a life of leisure. There might be an indulgent transition period, but they tend to grow discontent. Over a couple years, they find some way to productively re-engage with society. With money as a solved problem, it's often a more worthwhile pursuit.

For some (myself!), I think this is a necessary path. We get so hung up on the idea of being trapped in corporate America, that the way through has to be out.

Any model is necessarily limited. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the Wheaton level thread, especially if it isn't serving you personally.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

I reject Plato’s Cave, and I think The Matrix is a lot of BS. “This” is what is really real.

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Alphaville
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Alphaville »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:34 pm
I reject Plato’s Cave, and I think The Matrix is a lot of BS. “This” is what is really real.
i reject plato altogether, and i'm surprised to see you've gone zen. the matrix is just entertainment.

but what would you say if i told you there are jesuit and benedictine zen practitioners?

i know i swore i'd never comment here again. but this is too juicy. :lol:

have fun down this rabbit hole though:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Enomiya-Lassalle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willigis_Jäger

adios amigo 🖖

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by fiby41 »

Mythos is cognate for mithya.
sat existent/exists.
jagat world.
brahma highest principle/god

Full 2*2 matrix is:

brahma sat jagat mithya
God is permanent, the world is transient.

brahma sat jagat sat
The tangible world and sense-objects are a construct of the senses.

brahma mithya jagat sat
This world is real there is nothing more than what meets the eye.

brahma mithya jagat mithya
Nihilism

ertyu
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by ertyu »

a fascinating person. wow.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

Yesterday was a good day: Lifted heavy weights in the morning; did 8 hours of good work at the office (and helped to settle a particularly not-fun-to-work-on lawsuit that I was NOT looking forward to trying this summer); planted some pumpkins a friend from church gave me; jump-started and changed the tire on the car of a neighbor who is particularly stretched thin at the moment, b/c I figured that would be easier and less time consuming than trying to keep my fellow HOA Board members from voting to fine her at our monthly meeting for parking a non-functioning car on property (relatedly, showed my son how to jump start a car and change a tire); helped organize a fundraiser and community event being put on by my Catholic men's group; enjoyed dinner with my family and a cocktail with my wife, followed by evening prayers with the family and then about an hour of truly mindless TV with DW, in the form of Bravo's "Below Deck"; then finished reading "Nomadland" in bed, and frankly, I wish I'd spent that time watching more "Below Deck," as I'm finding more and more that what would probably be a really good long-form article often doesn't get better by being stretched out to book length--I get it, the S is already H-ing TF.

Note to self: I want to read Yukio Mishima's "Sun and Steel."

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

2 weeks into the StartingStrength novice linear progression lifting program, and man, I should have done this a long, long time ago. So far it seems to be the exact right amount of reps and sets, so I'm not overly fatigued/sore and can actually function physically (playing/coaching sports with the kids, home/yard/garden work, etc.) in between workouts. I also find that I really look forward to workouts, in part because it's just a great feeling to lift heavy things, and also because it doesn't feel like some sort of self-torture/flagellation that running or even HIIT workouts has always felt like for me. I know it'll get harder as the weight gets progressively heavier, but presumably my body will be adapting along the way. I also like that, because it's only 3 exercises per workout, I can finish in 30-45 minutes, even with the warm-up sets. It's also amazing to me that, at least for now, I am consistently putting 5lbs more on the bar every 2 days; the human body's adaptability really is an amazing thing, even over the age of 40. I'm also walking taller and just generally feeling better. And focusing on strength gains, and nothing else, is really helpful for me, as I've already found that I'm starting to make changes in other, related areas to facilitate the strength gain goal--e.g., not drinking the evening/night before a workout; making sure I consistently get a decent breakfast rather than skipping that meal; avoiding the junk-food-type meals that make me feel sluggish, knowing that I've got to put 5 more lbs on the bar the next morning or the next.

Who knows, perhaps it'll have taken me 40 years to realize I'm a meathead.

If anyone is interested and doesn't know how Google works, workout A is 3x5 squat and press, and 1x5 deadlift; and workout B is 3x5 squat and bench press, and 1x5 deadlift; and you alternate workouts with 24-48 hours rest or so in between (so MWF, or TRSa). And you add 5lbs or 2.5 lbs each workout to your work sets for each lift, until you can't anymore, at which point you are no longer a "beginner" novice, and you have to start mixing things up a bit, provided your linear progression hasn't failed for some other reason (stress at work, not enough sleep, poor eating, etc.).

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by white belt »

@Hristo

I'm glad you are enjoying Starting Strength. The novice linear progression was my introduction to lifting as well. I think it is a great beginner program because it builds consistency and keeps things relatively simple. After spending 3-6 months on it you will have built up the habit of lifting weights along with some technical proficiency, so you can then move on to other programs that may be more appropriate for your goals.

Enjoy the newbie gains while you have them because they won't last forever. What I found is that that SSLP towards the end can become quite a meat grinder as your body becomes more and more fatigued. Beginners can make a lot of progress without building up significant fatigue because they are limited by their lack of strength. You will find at a certain point that your body can no longer recover from workout to workout, which is when more complex fatigue management becomes necessary (I know this is covered in the SS book, but in my experience SSLP often goes on a bit too long and you end up accumulating a ton of fatigue in the last few weeks/months for tiny gains).

But for now, I recommend keeping things simple and continuing to follow the program for at least a few months. Once you have the habit of following a lifting program ingrained, I recommend checking out more intermediate/advanced texts that cover things like periodization: https://www.jtsstrength.com/scientific- ... -training/

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Dave »

+1 for Starting Strength being a great program that works as advertised. It took me to the 1,000 pound club after ~6 months of the program starting with no squat or deadlift experience and a weak bench.
white belt wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:29 pm
What I found is that that SSLP towards the end can become quite a meat grinder as your body becomes more and more fatigued. Beginners can make a lot of progress without building up significant fatigue because they are limited by their lack of strength. You will find at a certain point that your body can no longer recover from workout to workout, which is when more complex fatigue management becomes necessary (I know this is covered in the SS book, but in my experience SSLP often goes on a bit too long and you end up accumulating a ton of fatigue in the last few weeks/months for tiny gains).
This matches my experience. It gets brutal towards the end, and as @white belt said focusing on recovery (diet and sleep) in this phase is critical. But the beginning is amazing as you can keep adding weight to the bar and watch your lifts rocket for a period of time.

Enjoy Hristo, keep us posted with your progress!

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by jennypenny »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:53 am
ETA: Those thoughts are that I'm starting to think of the whole "Wheaton Level" progression as it concerns ERE, and the discussion around it, as kind of obnoxious, and really a turn-off. Perhaps (or probably) that's because I'm somewhere in the middle of the WL table, and so that means whatever that means about what poor-little-Matrix-dweller me is expected to think of the Morpheus's and Neo's of this forum, who are higher up on the table. But what's turned me off of that whole discussion is the entire Plato's Cave analogy, with (now) WL10 seen as some sort of "end"; Nirvana or enlightenment or whatever (until someone decides to create a WL11? or WL12?). I know I'm being unfair, but that's why I'm putting this here and not there. But ERE for me simply is not (and is incapable of being) an end or a purpose. It's a tool; a means to achieving some end. But some of the discussion around the WL table thing puts ERE as something more than that. And, frankly, turning ERE (and WL10 or whatever) as an "end" is just another (better, yes) way to define yourself in consumer terms, though as an anti-consumer, I guess.
Fish wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:49 pm
Thank you for putting this into words. You’re not alone in thinking this. As I see it, changing the table scope from personal finance to leaving “Plato’s cave” is precisely intended to repel those of us who have a more utilitarian view of ERE. Jacob has been adjusting his messaging over the years, to cultivate WL6+ thinking in these forums. This is the latest in a series of actions to purify the community, and a rather overt one.

As I’ve regressed in my focus to WL3-4 (to avoid friction with my wife), I’ve had to silently excuse myself from forum discussion that is increasingly irrelevant to me. That is to say I found myself “purified.”

The merits of WL5 frugal-FIRE and “alt-capital” WL6 are well-established, but there is no reason to go further presuming early retirement as the goal.
I've been thinking about this and wanted to take a stab at replying. (This is directed at HB but maybe Fish will read it and get something out of it.)

One possible answer is that you are at a point where you are about to level up and are feeling some friction before letting go of some tightly held beliefs. Another possibility is that you're feeling some stress in this area and are regressing (no negative connotation implied) -- falling back on longer-held beliefs that feel 'secure'.


Another is that it's hard to see/explain the benefits of an ERE-ish lifestyle beyond financial security and early retirement (beyond efficiency for efficiency's sake). Maybe I can make my point by comparing it to being a Catholic.

Many people just go to RCIA or parochial school, learn the 'rules', follow them, and end up as happy, contributing Catholics. They live their whole lives feeling like 'good Catholics' and get what they want out of it. (And I would never judge them.) If you decide to push yourself further though -- through things like self-study, bible study groups, retreats, or even teaching RCIA -- you learn to see the unwritten beauty in being a Catholic. And if you stay in the community a long time, a myriad of other benefits emerge.

Note: Included with 'benefits' are opportunities to give as well as receive. IMO one of the best parts of the Catholic church is the multitude of structured ways to give back to the community, both through effort and donations. It's not what people are initially looking for though. When Catholics try to 'sell' Catholicism, they focus on what you'll receive, mostly salvation (although discounted tuition is often mentioned ;) ). While I'm not going to argue that salvation isn't paramount, I will say that the benefits to my well-being come almost as much from the harder-to-define benefits that develop after long term investment in the Church/faith as they do from grace.

I'd never tell someone in an RCIA class that they should convert because they'll be able to donate more -- they wouldn't understand. In fact, it's one of the knocks on religion -- that it's a money grab. Unfortunately, they can't see yet how being secure in one's faith, family, and community (global and local) will nurture a need to give back and that Catholicism will give them a structure within which to do so. They can't yet understand how the demands the Church places on people help forge them into stronger individuals. They can't see beyond 'do this, get that'. (They might not ever understand, and that's ok too.)


Taking it back to ERE ... it's not a religion but some of the principles are the same. There is nothing wrong with the simple desire to retire early or feel financially secure. There are many C & E christians, for example, who are quite content in their lives and speak well of the church despite not engaging much. Some C & Es might even be suspicious of those whose lives are seemingly immersed in their parish. But there are also those who push to higher levels (to use the wheaton scale analogy). They are the ones who not only give the most, they are often the most serene because they have made peace with what they cannot control (like the behavior of other Catholics).

Leveling up in ERE can produce many positive benefits despite the selfish facade. First, if nothing else, it lowers one's footprint. Second, many EREs are healthier, leading to less strain on medical resources, and are also financially able to withstand temporary hardships, leading to less reliance on social systems. Those are all indirectly altruistic. Beyond that, some of us directly support causes while others simply promote a healthier, more stable lifestyle.

Some people are truly selfish and only give on par with what they get. Such is life, here and elsewhere. Some Catholics only show up for Easter and Christmas, which mid-level catholics might look down on, yet I'd argue that higher level Catholics aren't bothered by the attendance of others (the best of those would sincerely thank the C & E people for coming). If you can agree with that, can you see how a mid-level Catholic would be perplexed by the seemingly unconcerned response of the upper tier Catholic regarding the 'rules' of the Church? If you can, apply that to the ERE scale.

As far as those threads ... some of the upper level ERE talk on here is misguided. It's one of those 'you'll know when you get there' things. IMO it's impossible anyway to limit the upper tiers to 'ERE' or any particular system because the beauty is in the breadth and openness of it. The rules drop away making any table simplistic at best. And while the 'goal' of ERE isn't inherently to serve as it is in Catholicism, at least part of it is to avoid being served. Besides, we can't know God's plans for anyone, so we can't know if they are right where they should be.


I commented a little about 'faith' in the Yields and Flows thread also because I believe it's a big part of leveling up ... viewtopic.php?p=197674#p197674


ps. I hope you don't mind the response. I've been where you are. There are several mega-threads from a few years ago about religion, altruism, charity, philosophy, etc, if you want to search for them. If you do read them you'll see my thoughts on the subject have evolved over time, hopefully indicating growth and not capitulation.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

Thanks @JP; I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to put together such a thoughtful reply. Perhaps you're right that this is all just part of me "leveling up" and having some confusion and friction around that, or even that I'm in fact regressing in some way. But I don't really think so.

A few comments and a question.

First, the question:
jennypenny wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:50 am
Some people are truly selfish and only give on par with what they get. Such is life, here and elsewhere. Some Catholics only show up for Easter and Christmas, which mid-level catholics might look down on, yet I'd argue that higher level Catholics aren't bothered by the attendance of others (the best of those would sincerely thank the C & E people for coming). If you can agree with that, can you see how a mid-level Catholic would be perplexed by the seemingly unconcerned response of the upper tier Catholic regarding the 'rules' of the Church? If you can, apply that to the ERE scale.

I get your Catholic angle of this, more than you know (one of the few things that my "trad" conservative self actually prefers about our Jesuits as compared to our prior diocesan priests is that there's a focus on moving beyond "confirmation" theology to grown-up theology). But what do you mean by applying that to the ERE scale? If I'm a mid-level ERE'r, what are the ERE rules of which the upper-level ERE'rs are seemingly unconcerned, that is leaving me perplexed?

As a comment, I appreciate you trying to connect with me by making the analogy to Catholicism, but the truth is, it's that false equivalence as between ERE, on the one hand, and religion, or faith, or even "spirituality," on the other, that I see so much on this forum that is at the root of my concern (or annoyance or frustration or skepticism). To put it in the form of an SAT question, there is no correct answer to: Thomas Merton* is to Catholicism as _______ is to ERE. It's a false analogy.

Here's what I see as a better analogy. As noted above, I've recently gotten into strength training, and as I'm learning, Mark Rippetoe (Starting Strength) is a figure within the strength training community similar to perhaps what Jacob is to FIRE , or Wheaton is to permaculture, etc. (i.e., it is not a false analogy to say that Mark Rippetoe is to strength training what Jacob is to FIRE). I haven't read Rippetoe's famous "blue" book yet on strength training (it's in the mail), but as I understand it, the introduction of the book begins by saying something pretty outrageous like "Physical strength is the most important thing in life." Well, I think that is absurd. Again, I haven't read the book yet, and perhaps he sufficiently defends the statement in the book in a way that I'll "get it." But I have heard him defend that statement on his podcast a couple of times, and he's yet to make me "get it." Physical strength is REALLY important (something you know if you've had to help a loved one on and off the toilet and wipe their ass because they lack the strength to do it themselves, which is an example Rippetoe gives); but it's not "the most important thing in life." In other words, physical strength is not the ultimate end or purpose in/of life. I feel the same way about ERE. It's really important, and the world would be a better place in a lot of ways if more people consumed resources in an ERE-ish way; just as the world would be a better place if more people were able to squat 1.5x their body weight, or whatever, for many of the indirectly altruistic ways you mentioned in your reply.

ETA: To belabor the ERE/Starting Strength analogy, see how much ink has been spilled over the decades arguing (somewhat quite heatedly, dare I say "religiously") about what the Starting Strength program is, and what it isn't, and how one progresses along that program from "beginning novice," to "advanced novice," to "intermediate," to "master." It certainly looks similar to the various WL discussions here. There're also a lot of arguments about who the first innovators were, who really contributed something new to the "movement," and discussions about street cred and authenticity--to draw another analogy, Rippetoe claims to have learned from Bill Starr in a way that sounds very familiar to St. Paul claiming to have learned the Law at the feet of Gamaliel.

Perhaps it's not a false analogy to draw an equivalence as between ERE and Stoicism (IIRC Jacob sometimes refers to ERE as a "practical philosophy," which is what I understand Stoicism to be). I don't know enough about either Stoicism or ERE to ferret that out.** But I have a difficult time squaring the Stoic's end of attaining virtue and gaining an understanding of the logos with an ERE end of, what, closing all loops so as to not generate any waste? I guess this would be the "Chop Wood Carry Water" Sage as the equivalent of the Stoic Sage?

But back to where I started, I think where my head is at currently is I just think ERE is taking itself way too seriously. Whereas I can see Stoicism as a path to an understanding of the transcendent (stated in Stoic terms, gaining an understanding of the logos; stated in Matrix terms, dodging bullets, I guess), I just don't see ERE as that. It's still von Balthasar's ego-drama vs. theo-drama; and ultimately, the ego-drama is just boring, ho-hum, empty stuff.

And that I personally spend so much time on this forum discussing and thinking about ego-drama stuff makes me think that ERE, at least for me, is actually my Matrix; ERE is my Plato's Cave.

*Or insert whoever is your favorite Catholic contemplative and/or mystic.

**I suspect this will prompt someone on this forum to reply with several links to threads where folks already discussed ERE in the context of Stoicism; I get it: everything has already been discussed and argued and resolved, nothing I say is novel or interesting, and I'm just boring you all by trying to work it out in my own way on my own journal. Please don't go through the trouble of aggregating the "ERE and Stoicism" thread links just for my benefit; my to-read list is already long enough, and I won't click on the links.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by jacob »

Analogies are never perfect, but consider this ... There are two ways of pursuing yoga or meditation.

One way is to enter different poses with the aim of connecting the mind with the body; typically one would focus on something simple like breathing or maintaining a pose while letting the ego dissolve away. Here the aim is to go from "I have a body" to "I am a mind and a body" or even further.

Another way is to enter uncomfortable poses of increasing difficulty straining to become more flexible. Here the focus is on technique and mind over matter with the ego forcing the body to do its bidding. This advanced stretching routine achieves the exact opposite of the former.

Analogously, one can see ERE as a way of going through some simple exercises such as becoming FIRE, buying nothing, or thinking about systems as path towards being able to express one's full potential as a human being in a way that's in [ecological] balance with the world.

Or alternatively, one can focus on techniques of increasing difficulty or efficiency achieving better SWRs, accumulating ever larger sums of money, FIRE'ing and posting selfies of oneself in Ecuador on instagram... spending a lifetime working on advancing techniques but ultimately never going beyond maximizing one's earnings, spending, and investment potential.

I'd expect that one can map these to familiar ways of pursuing religion as well.
---

As for the other question, I think experience at "the upper level" (regardless of the field of interest) eventually makes it clear that most people just like techniques (the second way) and that many will never see beyond techniques. However, having met very many people by that time, it is also appreciated that technique is better than nothing. For example, even if I consider the current drive of the FIRE movement to be rather misguided or perhaps more accurately a case of "arrested development" in which I have little personal interest, it's still better than the alternative of mindless consumerism. Whereas at "the mid level" the focus on technique can sometimes be excessive because they have yet to realize that technique, like the yoga poses, is just a didactic tool. The makes "the upper level" more tolerant of errors in technique than "the mid level".

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Ego
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Ego »

Cafeteria Catholics. Eclectic ERE.

Some cafeteria Catholics pick and choose the parts that work for them and ignore the rest.
Some eclectic EREists pick and choose the parts that work for them and ignore the rest.

Some cafeteria Catholics don't actually believe in God.
Some eclectic EREists don't actually believe the environmental imperative.

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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by chenda »

'God is everywhere but He is most manifest in man. So serve man as God. That is as good as worshipping God'

Ramakrishna

Hristo Botev
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Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Hristo Botev »

jacob wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:04 pm
As for the other question, I think experience at "the upper level" (regardless of the field of interest) eventually makes it clear that most people just like techniques (the second way) and that many will never see beyond techniques. However, having met very many people by that time, it is also appreciated that technique is better than nothing. For example, even if I consider the current drive of the FIRE movement to be rather misguided or perhaps more accurately a case of "arrested development" in which I have little personal interest, it's still better than the alternative of mindless consumerism. Whereas at "the mid level" the focus on technique can sometimes be excessive because they have yet to realize that technique, like the yoga poses, is just a didactic tool. The makes "the upper level" more tolerant of errors in technique than "the mid level".
This makes sense; false equivalencies aside, I get it. Absent a visitation from the Angel Gabriel or the Blessed Holy Mother, you can't go straight from the Catholic equivalent of a WL1-2 to a WL7-8, you need to progress through the mid levels (though don't tell my Jesuits that). And though I'd balk at equating sacraments and the like, and the rules around them, to being merely didactic tools (or equating the sacraments to yoga poses), I get that when you're in the "mid levels" as a Catholic, you think that the mid level is in fact the game, and much of your focus and energies are dedicated to just being really good at the game by strictly following all the rules and practicing all the techniques associated with that game. Most people don't move beyond the game, and that's fine. Those rules/techniques lay out a pretty clear map for how to live life well and fully. But, to fully grok what is meant by "God is love," as our Jesuits are always saying, or "God in all things," means you have to come to understand why the rules/techniques are important, and what end they serve, which means moving beyond the game. And when you get to that understanding, you can't help but being overjoyed every time you see someone else on that path "behind you," regardless of what step they are on in the process, which necessarily means being "tolerant" and non-judgmental.

That said . . .
jacob wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:04 pm
Analogously, one can see ERE as . . . thinking about systems as path towards being able to express one's full potential as a human being in a way that's in [ecological] balance with the world.
if I'm to understand this ↑ as a statement of ERE's ultimate end/purpose, then this is the rub I've been trying to articulate and figure out for myself. As soon as I read this my mind immediately jumped to St. Irenaeus's [mis]quote that "the glory of God is a human being fully alive!". As a Catholic the only "path towards being able to express one's full potential as a human being" is Jesus (or the Church, or God). Put another way, from the perspective of a religious person, this statement of ERE's purpose supplants religion with ERE, which is the implication that I was getting from the recent discussions on the WL threads, and which is what I was reacting to on my journal upstream. (Put another, another way: as cults go, I've already picked mine.) That's my objection and the reason for my push-back; not that it matters--ERE is yours and you can obviously do with it whatever you please. From an ERE perspective I'm more than happy to stick around in Double-A indefinitely, with an eye towards maybe getting called up to play a game or two at AAA one day; but I'll leave the majors for those that are really committed. I think ERE works quite well as a program/mindset for developing independence and self-reliance in an ecologically sustainable way--decoupling from the system, so to speak--but any purpose beyond that is better (and more appropriately) served by religion.

Scott 2
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Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Scott 2 »

As someone with almost no religious perspective, it's pretty interesting to see how you integrate the two sets of ideas.

Married2aSwabian
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:45 pm

Re: Hristo's FI Journal

Post by Married2aSwabian »

Since the discussion here revolves around conflating ERE with religion, how about Buddhism? The First Noble Truth: we all have suffering, which is derived from desire, attachment, passion, aggression and ignorance.

There is a path to that suffering - the path of ill being, as well as a path to well being.

ERE is one means to that end. Letting go.

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